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Old 12-18-2012, 10:57 AM   #26
DeeezNuuuts83
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And that's what killed the nsx.... Make a high-tech exotic car, with semi-exotic car prices, and shove a sub-300hp v6 in it. Reliable? Yes. Powerful? Hell no. High-end sports car enthusiasts quickly passed it by for more powerful cars. Had they made a high-revving n/a v8 with 400+ hp, it would have cemented it's place in car history. It's not like Honda doesn't excel in making motors just like that...
The engine was pretty solid at its time, but only in the beginning, since its competitors went back to the drawing board pretty quickly and struck back and went unanswered by Acura/Honda.

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Not sure i've ever seen an NSX quoted at 12sec 1/4 mile times stock. IIRC, closer to 14, high 13's throughout the production years. Many modern cars do that. A WRX will spank that. Lots of cars from the 90's will run 14's. Gotta remember, the NSX ain't small or light.
If you think an NSX is fast, either you haven't driven one, or you haven't driven many fast cars. Its not slow or crappy, per se, but its not super impressive.
You're quoting the worst times. There were some models that could do 12s, but they were all at least doing low to mid 13s, which in the 1990s was pretty good.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:14 AM   #27
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The problem with the NSX was that the engine was merely adequate for a supercar when it debuted and the field moved on very quickly. If it only lasted 3-4 years it would have been fine.

The Lexus will hold value purely on low volume and high price.

As far as desirability, the Lexus was born from a poor F1 program after such program had moved on, while the NSX came from a legendary F1 driver while Honda was still affiliated with McLaren.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:10 PM   #28
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Not sure i've ever seen an NSX quoted at 12sec 1/4 mile times stock. IIRC, closer to 14, high 13's throughout the production years. Many modern cars do that. A WRX will spank that. Lots of cars from the 90's will run 14's. Gotta remember, the NSX ain't small or light.
If you think an NSX is fast, either you haven't driven one, or you haven't driven many fast cars. Its not slow or crappy, per se, but its not super impressive.
The NSX is not impressive?? It put Ferrari and Porsche back to the drawing boards when it was debut. The C4 corvette made less power with a V8 and the NSX was much lighter than the competition.

Anyways, the LFA is leagues beyond the NSX, although did not have as much impact. It's still an awesome car and very exclusive.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:49 PM   #29
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The C4 corvette made less power with a V8 and the NSX was much lighter than the competition.
*most* C4 corvettes with the L98 had lower HP, yes, but had 100+ ft/lbs more torque and were ~$30k cheaper.

If you're going to compare apples to apples.. you may want to compare apples.

The LT5 vettes (Remember the ZR1?) had 375-400 hp with matching torque, and was available at the same time.

Oh, and the ZR1 was $60k. The NSX was... $60k.

--kC
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:50 PM   #30
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But that model wasn't the standard Corvette though. No sense in comparing the absolute best model that was fairly limited in its production numbers anyway.
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:38 PM   #31
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But that model wasn't the standard Corvette though. No sense in comparing the absolute best model that was fairly limited in its production numbers anyway.
US Sales....

---1991 ---
NSX 3163
ZR1 2044

---1992---
NSX 1270
ZR1 502

---1993---
NSX 608
ZR1 448

I don't know... 5041 NSXs imported to the US seems like a limited number to me. Sure, they did make 2994 ZR1s... yes, even more limited. However I would say they were both limited editions and call it a wash.

--kC
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:43 PM   #32
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Don't all the LFA's have to go back to Toyota anyway? They were lease only, right?
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:46 PM   #33
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Don't all the LFA's have to go back to Toyota anyway? They were lease only, right?
Sort of, but they don't "have to" go back to Toyota. They were sold as two-year, paid-in-full leases to prevent customers from re-selling them at a profit or getting rid of them early. You figure most buyers will probably buy them after the lease is up, then do whatever with them (keep it or sell it) rather than to just give it back.
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:17 PM   #34
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Oh, i don't hate NSX's, I've just never been impressed enuf to buy one. Nice, low, wide car, but the body lines aren't really my cup of tea. That and the very limited/overpriced aftermarket. Not like its bad, just not my cup of tea. I'm sure if i found an amazing deal on one, perhaps... Otherwise if I want mid-engine and reliable, i'll stick to Toyota. (Or a Toyota-powered Lotus...)

But there sure are some butt-hurt nsx-fanboy's around here...
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:44 PM   #35
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Sort of, but they don't "have to" go back to Toyota. They were sold as two-year, paid-in-full leases to prevent customers from re-selling them at a profit or getting rid of them early. You figure most buyers will probably buy them after the lease is up, then do whatever with them (keep it or sell it) rather than to just give it back.
Some people were allowed to buy them as long as the dealers were given first right of refusal if they were to be resold later. I doubt any of them will be returned.
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:50 PM   #36
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Oh, i don't hate NSX's, I've just never been impressed enuf to buy one. Nice, low, wide car, but the body lines aren't really my cup of tea. That and the very limited/overpriced aftermarket. Not like its bad, just not my cup of tea. I'm sure if i found an amazing deal on one, perhaps... Otherwise if I want mid-engine and reliable, i'll stick to Toyota. (Or a Toyota-powered Lotus...)

But there sure are some butt-hurt nsx-fanboy's around here...
No fanboys but just people who know good cars and appreciate engineering.

The NSX was inspiration for Gordon Murray...
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:36 PM   #37
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NSX was fast from '91-'93; then it fell off the face of the earth as other performance cars started to move forward. Yeah it was faster than a 348, so was a certain GMC SUV.

As everyone evolved, the NSX became drawn out. The NSX has always been a 'looker', but it needed a 200-300hp bump by 2002, which Honda refused to do. By the end of its life cycle, Viper had jumped 100hp; standard Corvette jumped 150hp; Ferrari jumped 183hp; 911T jumped 135hp.

I wanted an NSX for a DD, but couldn't justify the price of many of them considering their mileage. Great car, just needed a turbo from the factory. . .


As far as the LFA, I'm glad to see it gone. There is not one aspect of the car that I find impressive.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:09 PM   #38
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NSX was fast from '91-'93; then it fell off the face of the earth as other performance cars started to move forward. Yeah it was faster than a 348, so was a certain GMC SUV.

As everyone evolved, the NSX became drawn out. The NSX has always been a 'looker', but it needed a 200-300hp bump by 2002, which Honda refused to do. By the end of its life cycle, Viper had jumped 100hp; standard Corvette jumped 150hp; Ferrari jumped 183hp; 911T jumped 135hp.

I wanted an NSX for a DD, but couldn't justify the price of many of them considering their mileage. Great car, just needed a turbo from the factory. . .


As far as the LFA, I'm glad to see it gone. There is not one aspect of the car that I find impressive.
The NSX may not have improved over the years and fell behind competitors in later years, but it doesn't diminish what it did while it was competitive. It transformed a lot of the way we think of supercars today.

If you don't find (at least) the engineering of a vehicle impressive, there's not much reason to like many of the ultracars out there (Zondas, Enzos, Carrera GTs, etc) but that's your perogative.

Last edited by manticus; 12-18-2012 at 09:37 PM.
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:49 PM   #39
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I respect the exclusivity and technology in the car but IMO it's kind of a failure performance per dollar. For this type of money I expect better than GTR performance. Not saying I wouldn't love to own one but it's one of those cars that the whole is less than the sum of its parts.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:18 AM   #40
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I respect the exclusivity and technology in the car but IMO it's kind of a failure performance per dollar. For this type of money I expect better than GTR performance. Not saying I wouldn't love to own one but it's one of those cars that the whole is less than the sum of its parts.
It's faster than a GTR around Nurburgring - what more do you want? A Viper with Pilot Cup Real tires and a Radical beat it. And if you're looking for performance per dollar you are most definitely not buying anything over $100K - the performance dollar above that level is not worth it. For this type of money, a stupid track time doesn't matter to you more than exclusivity. The people who buy 300k+ supercars, buy them to play with, not just because they won some magazine ego test.
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:03 AM   #41
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I would have paid that much just for that exhaust note...
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:53 AM   #42
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The people who buy 300k+ supercars, buy them to play with, not just because they won some magazine ego test.
Lol, have you met most of those owners? It's ALL about ego.
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:52 AM   #43
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Lol, have you met most of those owners? It's ALL about ego.
I doubt anyone has met "most" of those owners, but a cursory glance of some of the biggest car collections in history (Leno, etc), the ultra-rich don't buy cars solely because they're the fastest in a magazine test - they buy them for various reasons and performance/$ isn't the only one.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:03 AM   #44
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I doubt anyone has met "most" of those owners, but a cursory glance of some of the biggest car collections in history (Leno, etc), the ultra-rich don't buy cars solely because they're the fastest in a magazine test - they buy them for various reasons and performance/$ isn't the only one.
no, no...I have met them all, every single one of them..in the world...ever.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:17 AM   #45
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I would have paid that much just for that exhaust note...
He is right,

Everybody else is wrong.


I agree with him..


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Old 12-19-2012, 11:38 AM   #46
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He is right,

Everybody else is wrong.


I agree with him..


Also correct. I was watching the Top Gear last night where Clarkson drives the blue one. That's all i was thinking the whole time: MMMMM. 9000rpm v10 Sounds soo good.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:38 PM   #47
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It's faster than a GTR around Nurburgring - what more do you want? A Viper with Pilot Cup Real tires and a Radical beat it. And if you're looking for performance per dollar you are most definitely not buying anything over $100K - the performance dollar above that level is not worth it. For this type of money, a stupid track time doesn't matter to you more than exclusivity. The people who buy 300k+ supercars, buy them to play with, not just because they won some magazine ego test.
So Toyota's professional driver coaxed an incredible time out of it around Nurburgring. Subaru also put impressive Nurburgring numbers to hype up the 2011 STI changes but at the end of the day the revised 2011 STI's still got spanked by EVO's in numerous magazine competitions.

Personally I expect an extremely expensive exotic car to be a better drivers car than a Boss 302:

http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...r/viewall.html

Like I said before the whole is less than the sum of the parts.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:21 PM   #48
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So Toyota's professional driver coaxed an incredible time out of it around Nurburgring. Subaru also put impressive Nurburgring numbers to hype up the 2011 STI changes but at the end of the day the revised 2011 STI's still got spanked by EVO's in numerous magazine competitions.

Personally I expect an extremely expensive exotic car to be a better drivers car than a Boss 302:

http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...r/viewall.html

Like I said before the whole is less than the sum of the parts.
So, you argue that the performance isn't there, then when I show you a recorded time you now resort to blaming Toyota for using a professional driver, as if all other times were from "average Joe".

Then, somehow this becomes personal with you and now it's about the STI vs the EVO.

Then you quote a magazine article to provide further proof that somehow the LFA sucks, when even the author mentions: "Most folks would happily give up a limb just to sit in and sniff the interior of any one of these monsters". Not to mention, while Randy had difficulties driving it, Justin carved with it. Comparing a car to Vai arpeggios - very high praise. Or did you just make a conclusion from what some other pro driver said and decide that you must share his opinion? Check out a Rolling Stone Top 100 list sometime and see if everyone agrees with that ordering as well - "Top 10" lists sell magazines because no one ever agrees 100% with it and disagreement is good for getting people to click through.

The only people that care about some magazine time are people that worry about their bruised egos. Are you really so amped about a magazine that touts some "Top 10" that you go around spouting it off like some God-given truth about what supercars are really like? Gotta love the Internet...

Yesterday I ran into an Evo X owner at the gas station and no sooner than I had complimented him on his car he just *had* to extoll the virtues of how the Evo X beat the STI in the CnD Lightning Lap at VIR. I have no time for egos.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:30 PM   #49
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So Toyota's professional driver coaxed an incredible time out of it around Nurburgring. Subaru also put impressive Nurburgring numbers to hype up the 2011 STI changes but at the end of the day the revised 2011 STI's still got spanked by EVO's in numerous magazine competitions.
That's because the STI used in that test wasn't a production car. It was a JDM spec car that had goodies from different models installed by Subaru... i.e. bigger turbo, six-piston calipers, etc. Definitely not a production car.

Quote:
The car starts with the suspension from the improved-for-2011 WRX STI—it’s 5 mm lower than the 2010 model, with 1-mm-thicker front and rear anti-roll bars, higher-rate springs all around, stiffer rear-subframe bushings, and new front-suspension pillow-ball bushings. The engine is the Japanese-market STI spec.c’s, a 2.0-liter turbocharged boxer-four that’s been given the larger turbo from the R205, another Japanese special-edition STI model. It’s now putting out a claimed 320 hp, which makes the time that much more impressive when compared with the Panamera’s 500 turbocharged ponies (although the Porsche is surely carrying around a few hundred extra pounds). The R205 also donates six-piston front brakes and a front strut-tower brace; it features a flexible center portion that allows vertical motion but maintains lateral stiffness. Weight is saved through the use of an aluminum hood from the spec.c, unique aluminum front fenders, the spec.c’s smaller battery, and the deletion of the radio as in the R205 and spec.c. Extra aero parts specific to this car include a full undertray, a front-lip extension tacked onto the R205’s lower spoiler, and a Gurney flap added—taped, really—to the rear at Mäkinen’s request. (The car was getting a bit out of shape without it in the high-speed sections.) A full roll cage and race buckets fitted with a five-point harness for the driver and a four-point for the passenger make things safe.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:38 PM   #50
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The NSX may not have improved over the years and fell behind competitors in later years, but it doesn't diminish what it did while it was competitive. It transformed a lot of the way we think of supercars today.

If you don't find (at least) the engineering of a vehicle impressive, there's not much reason to like many of the ultracars out there (Zondas, Enzos, Carrera GTs, etc) but that's your perogative.
The LFA has nothing on the cars you named. It looks like Lexus bought the drawings for the upcoming tc from Scion.

Compared to other V10 cars:
Slower than Viper.
Sound isn't up to the par of CGT.
Double price of LP550/560/570 without the brand royalty.

On a plus, when brought in for service, it gets parked next to this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by manticus View Post
It's faster than a GTR around Nurburgring - what more do you want? A Viper with Pilot Cup Real tires and a Radical beat it. And if you're looking for performance per dollar you are most definitely not buying anything over $100K - the performance dollar above that level is not worth it. For this type of money, a stupid track time doesn't matter to you more than exclusivity. The people who buy 300k+ supercars, buy them to play with, not just because they won some magazine ego test.
IMO opinion a Viper on pilot cups would be more manageable in 99% of driving than on PS2s.

People that buy $400k+ cars (LFA price tag) also want some exclusivity, which as hard as Lexus tried, cannot be associated with this logo:


Lexus tried to create a niche market to the likes of One-77, GT3RS4.0, Reventon, Ferrari XX line; but they don't have any heritage that creates brand loyalists, who are willing to drop any amount at the drop of a hat. Instead Lexus created a decent performing car that is grossly over-priced which can be mistaken for an FRS, and there is not service at the level of other cars in this price bracket offered at Lexus dealers; but Lexus continued to market the car at a level it never reached.

Not impressed.
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