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Old 01-23-2013, 04:21 PM   #51
sti2010rl
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Originally Posted by sgoldste01 View Post
I guess I'm an ignorant Subaru driver then, and it appears that your definition is a Subaru driver who is easily satisfied because his/her car climbs steep snow-covered grades, and doesn't even flinch when driving in condition that are leaving many other drivers in the ditch (this was my situation when driving through PA this past Monday).

So yes, I'm ignorantly satisfied with the 5-speed manual AWD system in my Impreza that does everything I've asked it to do without complaint or drama.

Am I wrong to be satisfied that my car easily does what I ask it do, while other drivers on the same roads are clearly struggling?
1. The VCU setup won't have a problem with snow as I've already explained, as it's not completely frictionless like ice. It will only have trouble in 40cm plus dumps of snow, when low ride height actually becomes more of an issue than the AWD system itself. We get freezing rain in Quebec, so when your driveway is steep and has patches of slippery ice, the VCU setup is terrible.

2. If you're kicking everyone's butt on the road, you're clearly driving among 2WD motorists, and possibly ones with all seasons. In Montreal, lots and lots of people drive AWD cars, from Subs to Audis to Rubicons. We're required by law starting from December to have winter tires. When driving the Legacy, it was interesting to drive side-by-side with the better AWD cars. They had a better initial pickup in snow falls. Why would I even bother comparing my AWD performance to a Civic's? That's like saying that my fitness is fantastic because I hit the treadmill once a week--I just beat that old geezer at the track. What kind of standard is that?

3. You're satisfied that your stuff does what you want. Having owned a product that was similar to yours, I can say that I don't like your stuff. Why should you care? My post was an opinion piece. You don't have to agree. As a fitness freak, people often ask me why I bother training past the recommended health standards. They're happy at that level, and they're puzzled by why I'm not. Then they start feeling bad about why I want to push myself further. I can't relate to this common type of behavior. Your AWD system is bad. Why should that bother you if it lives up to your expectations?
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:26 PM   #52
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Why should that bother you if it lives up to your expectations?
It doesn't bother me that it lives up to my expectations. That's the very point I was trying to make.
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:28 PM   #53
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Does that make it bad if it doesn't bother you or lives up to your expectations?



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Originally Posted by sti2010rl View Post
We're required by law starting from December to have winter tires.
Where does everyone keep their spare set of tires? Public storage? Not everyone has garages or basements, I imagine.
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:31 PM   #54
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Does that make it bad if it doesn't bother you or lives up to your expectations?
See my edited clarification above.
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:43 PM   #55
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I'm with sgoldste01.

Some AWD systems are for getting a high-powered car around a track as quickly as possible.

The Impreza's is for distributing power between its wheels without adding much weight, complexity, drag and cost. VDC uses existing brake components to get the car moving and keep it from spinning out. "E-diffs" aren't meant for the track. They're for poor conditions where your 300+ HP won't make it to the ground, regardless of what AWD system you have.

This is one of many reasons I'm glad the Impreza broke away from the WRX/STI.
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:59 PM   #56
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Nope, the performance of the car is clearly mind over matter.

Performance on ice might improve with studs. But that isn't because the metal stud sticks into the ice, it is because you think it is helping.

In fact, the same applies in the gym, as any fitness buff knows. It's all mental.
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:22 PM   #57
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Why would I even bother comparing my AWD performance to a Civic's?
Because the Impreza and Civic are in the same price range and one has AWD and one doesn't.

I live in Minnesota and can't recall ever being in a situation where only one or two wheels is on ice and the others aren't. Snow and/or ice usually cover the whole road. I could probably do without the VCU and be just fine. I don't think the 1% of the time where the VCU might not work as well as other more sophisticated setups means that my $20K AWD car sucks.

I second what others have said, my Impreza has been a beast in snow storms here where others were struggling.

BTW, I'm so jealous of your fitness regimen and wish I was in as good of shape as you are.
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:56 PM   #58
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I'm with sgoldste01.

Some AWD systems are for getting a high-powered car around a track as quickly as possible.

The Impreza's is for distributing power between its wheels without adding much weight, complexity, drag and cost. VDC uses existing brake components to get the car moving and keep it from spinning out. "E-diffs" aren't meant for the track. They're for poor conditions where your 300+ HP won't make it to the ground, regardless of what AWD system you have.

This is one of many reasons I'm glad the Impreza broke away from the WRX/STI.
The reason for having mechanical lsds is not solely for track purposes. Any car with an advanced AWD system will combine mechanical differentials with e-diffs (i.e. DCCD, VTD, Audi's new crown gear diffs with rear sport diffs). Whether we're talking about Torsen or clutch type lsds, they are defeatable in some low traction scenarios, i.e.: when torsens hit a frictionless surface, they behave like open diffs as they are torque multipliers. Similarly, e-diffs alone can be defeated unless the system allows for very high clamping force of the brakes, which is hardly ever the case due to lack of smoothness and safety. Now, when you combine mechanical and electronic diffs, you can make the AWD system function much better as the braking will cause torque resistance which can be multiplied to the other wheel with traction if we're talking about a torsen LSD.


It has very little to do with one system being better for the track or not. One is simply much less costly to make. Certainly, most track performance cars will have lsds compared to non-performance cars. It's also because they're more expensive as well. Look at the Outback XT VTD. That car had a rear clutch-type lsd and planetary gear center diff and it certainly was not meant for the track. It also had VDC, which really made it quite the AWD monster combined with its high ride height. It would simply annihilate any of today's Outbacks hands down (as in absolutely no debate there). The down side was that it was very expensive, and had low demand.


The STI has 3 settings for electronic nannies. One with traction control and VDC on, one with only VDC on, and one completely off. It's not really recommended to use either of the first two modes on the track unless you want your brakes to catch fire. Unfortunately, weakness of the Torsen lsds could really benefit from the electronic setup, but that's on a different topic altogether.


Lastly, I'm saying the VCU is bad because (insert performance lacking argument here). The relevant counter to this argument for those of you who disagree is something that proves that the VCU actually does something useful other than stink up your cabin when your wheels spin. Saying that you like it doesn't counter my argument. Saying that the system works fine for what you need it only implies that you only need an open diff. Like, I'm glad that you're glad, but I never asked anyone if they were happy with their VCU. It's like me saying that I'm having trouble running the 40 yard dash due to a limp, and someone countering with “I have a limp, and all those guys have limps, and we're just fine walking across the street.”

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Old 01-23-2013, 07:38 PM   #59
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Similarly, e-diffs alone can be defeated unless the system allows for very high clamping force of the brakes, which is hardly ever the case due to lack of smoothness and safety.
The Impreza's system does allow for high clamping force. Videos on youtube show wheels stopping completely when they lift off the ground, as the car moves forward.

Quote:
The STI, has 3 settings for electronic nannies. One with traction control and VDC on, one with only VDC on, and one completely off. It's not really recommended to use either of the first two modes on the track unless you want your brakes to catch fire.
This is why the STI's system is good for the STI, but not necessarily the Impreza. When you're stuck in snow, the engine isn't generating the kind of power that will smoke brakes. When you can't get 20 horsepower to the ground, transferring 300+ isn't a concern. Like I mentioned above, VDC is already capable of stopping slipping wheels completely, unlike any mechanical differential.

Don't be so sure that Subaru's VDC implementation is identical across the line-up. Have you actually driven a 2012+ Impreza in bad weather?
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:22 PM   #60
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Because the Impreza and Civic are in the same price range and one has AWD and one doesn't.

I live in Minnesota and can't recall ever being in a situation where only one or two wheels is on ice and the others aren't. Snow and/or ice usually cover the whole road. I could probably do without the VCU and be just fine. I don't think the 1% of the time where the VCU might not work as well as other more sophisticated setups means that my $20K AWD car sucks.

I second what others have said, my Impreza has been a beast in snow storms here where others were struggling.

BTW, I'm so jealous of your fitness regimen and wish I was in as good of shape as you are.
Right from the start, I can tell that you're a mouthbreather. With the first statement, you're implying two things: 1. For every price range, you should buy an AWD car. So if I wanted to spend, say 42k, I should buy the A4 Quattro over a Boss 302 any day. 2. You're saying you should test the prowess of your AWD system against any similarly priced motor vehicle. How about a Ducati, which is also around ~20k depending on the model? Your AWD system is awesome because you can beat a Ducati in snow. I can think of thousand reasons why I would spend the same amount of money for a non-AWD car, but I don't think you'll see the logic based on your post. Idiot.


Everyone lives in Minnesota. You happen not to experience the worst conditions, and therefore the rest of us don't experience them either. My argument that the VCU sucks is completely trumped by your contention that we don't need a good one anyway. I could probably spot you across any crowded room: that dude with his mouth always open. Yes, your car's AWD absolutely sucks compared to the AWD systems in similar price ranges including, but not limited to: SX4 (manually locking diff), Lancer AWD (no, not the EVO, and it has a manually locking diff), and last but not least, the automatic Impreza.


Your car is a beast in snow compared to other what's struggling? Mopeds? FWD cars with bald tires? Rubicons?


I've posted about my fitness regimen? Ah yes, I did post some PR numbers in NASIOC OT's Powerlifting threads. You know, you definitely should consider powerlifting. You'd be a great candidate, being a mouthbreather and all (you want to forcefully inhale and exhale with your mouth).

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Old 01-23-2013, 08:31 PM   #61
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Don't be so sure that Subaru's VDC implementation is identical across the line-up. Have you actually driven a 2012+ Impreza in bad weather?
No I haven't. My fiance's impreza is a MY2011 4EAT. I'm assuming that it should be similar. Maybe you're right about it being able to clamp hard at low engine speeds, but it definitely isn't the case when you're trying to rock the vehicle at of lots of snow and causing lots of wheel spin. My buddy actually has a 2012 Impreza 5MT. I actually am the person who recommended it based on price, and the fact that he absolutely wanted manual. I haven't driven his car in snow. What he definitely understands is that he shouldn't park in my driveway when it rains ice.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:32 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by sti2010rl View Post
Yes, your car's AWD absolutely sucks compared to the AWD systems in similar price ranges including, but not limited to: SX4 (manually locking diff), Lancer AWD (no, not the EVO, and it has a manually locking diff), and last but not least, the automatic Impreza.
wait, what. i have been reading this argument and trying to follow along. just confused and want some clarification. I am very new to this awd subaru. my background is only in front wheel drive and rear wheels drive with torsen lsd. i have the cvt impreza. why is it better than the manual 50/50 awd? is it because the computer can react faster at sending power to the wheels through the multi clutch pack system?

edit: also my car with dws didn't have a big issue climibing an incline covered in complete ice.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:35 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by sti2010rl View Post
Right from the start, I can tell that you're a mouthbreather. With the first statement, you're implying two things: 1. For every price range, you should buy an AWD car. So if I wanted to spend, say 42k, I should buy the A4 Quattro over a Boss 302 any day. 2. You're saying you should test the prowess of your AWD system against any similarly priced motor vehicle. How about a Ducati, which is also around ~20k depending on the model? Your AWD system is awesome because you can beat a Ducati in snow. I can think of thousand reasons why I would spend the same amount of money for a non-AWD car, but I don't think you'll see the logic based on your post. Idiot.


Everyone lives in Minnesota. You happen not to experience the worst conditions, and therefore the rest of us don't experience either. My argument that the VCU sucks is completely trumped by your contention that we don't need a good one anyway. I could probably spot you across any crowded room: that dude with his mouth always open. Yes, your car's AWD absolutely sucks compared to the AWD systems in similar price ranges including, but not limited to: SX4 (manually locking diff), Lancer AWD (no, not the EVO, and it has a manually locking diff), and last but not least, the automatic Impreza.


Your car is a beast in snow compared to other what's struggling? Mopeds? FWD cars with bald tires? Rubicons?


I've posted about my fitness regimen? Ah yes, I did post some PR numbers in NASIOC OT's Powerlifting threads. You know, you definitely should consider powerlifting. You'd be a great candidate, being a mouthbreather and all (you want to forcefully inhale and exhale with your mouth).
Many of us here have heard for years that the Subaru AWD system is the best in its price bracket, and beyond that, seen and experienced evidence to support our (possibly biased) opinion. If you are going to claim that we are wrong in our understanding of these systems and wish to make us believe otherwise, you should give us evidence and facts. I don't want to say you are wrong or right, but you shouldn't call him names or start a flame war if you disagree with him. There is a better way to prove him wrong if he is indeed wrong.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:36 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by sti2010rl View Post
Right from the start, I can tell that you're a mouthbreather. With the first statement, you're implying two things: 1. For every price range, you should buy an AWD car. So if I wanted to spend, say 42k, I should buy the A4 Quattro over a Boss 302 any day. 2. You're saying you should test the prowess of your AWD system against any similarly priced motor vehicle. How about a Ducati, which is also around ~20k depending on the model? Your AWD system is awesome because you can beat a Ducati in snow. I can think of thousand reasons why I would spend the same amount of money for a non-AWD car, but I don't think you'll see the logic based on your post. Idiot.


Everyone lives in Minnesota. You happen not to experience the worst conditions, and therefore the rest of us don't experience either. My argument that the VCU sucks is completely trumped by your contention that we don't need a good one anyway. I could probably spot you across any crowded room: that dude with his mouth always open. Yes, your car's AWD absolutely sucks compared to the AWD systems in similar price ranges including, but not limited to: SX4 (manually locking diff), Lancer AWD (no, not the EVO, and it has a manually locking diff), and last but not least, the automatic Impreza.


Your car is a beast in snow compared to other what's struggling? Mopeds? FWD cars with bald tires? Rubicons?


I've posted about my fitness regimen? Ah yes, I did post some PR numbers in NASIOC OT's Powerlifting threads. You know, you definitely should consider powerlifting. You'd be a great candidate, being a mouthbreather and all (you want to forcefully inhale and exhale with your mouth).
Wow, I think all those steroids you appear to have been taking have messed up your temperament. Have you considered therapy?

I honestly read the fitness note from Nels0300 as praise and not a dig, but you are itching for disagreement to prove your internet superiority. Good news, you've won the internet!

Despite your claim of vast knowledge and infinite wisdom, I think I'll add you to the ignore list now -- probably joining the ranks of many who did the same before me.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:39 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by sti2010rl View Post
Right from the start, I can tell that you're a mouthbreather. With the first statement, you're implying two things: 1. For every price range, you should buy an AWD car. So if I wanted to spend, say 42k, I should buy the A4 Quattro over a Boss 302 any day. 2. You're saying you should test the prowess of your AWD system against any similarly priced motor vehicle. How about a Ducati, which is also around ~20k depending on the model? Your AWD system is awesome because you can beat a Ducati in snow. I can think of thousand reasons why I would spend the same amount of money for a non-AWD car, but I don't think you'll see the logic based on your post. Idiot.
The Civic and the Impreza are in the same exact segment, it's a logical comparison. The A4 and Boss 302 aren't.

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I've posted about my fitness regimen? Ah yes, I did post some PR numbers in NASIOC OT's Powerlifting threads. You know, you definitely should consider powerlifting. You'd be a great candidate, being a mouthbreather and all (you want to forcefully inhale and exhale with your mouth).
You bragged about how good of shape you're in, how high of standards you set for yourself, trash people's cars, call people idiots, mouthbreathers, and now have to let everyone know you're a powerlifter. I sure am glad this is the internet because you could probably kick my ass too.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:40 PM   #66
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wait, what. i have been reading this argument and trying to follow along. just confused and want some clarification. I am very new to this awd subaru. my background is only in front wheel drive and rear wheels drive with torsen lsd. i have the cvt impreza. why is it better than the manual 50/50 awd? is it because the computer can react faster at sending power to the wheels through the multi clutch pack system?

edit: also my car with dws didn't have a big issue climibing an incline covered in complete ice.
In short, yes. The multiplate clutch system apportions torque through the front and rear axles based on acceleration, angle of car through launch, etc. That's not the only reason why it's better. Having your AWD system proactive is certainly a plus, but it's also better because it actually can transfer a meaningful amount of torque between wheels as opposed to the VCU which transfers a negligible amount of torque per 100 rpm of engine speed.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:47 PM   #67
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No I haven't. My fiance's impreza is a MY2011 4EAT. I'm assuming that it should be similar. Maybe you're right about it being able to clamp hard at low engine speeds, but it definitely isn't the case when you're trying to rock the vehicle at of lots of snow and causing lots of wheel spin.
The 2012 is a completely different platform.

Quote:
My buddy actually has a 2012 Impreza 5MT. I actually am the person who recommended it based on price, and the fact that he absolutely wanted manual. I haven't driven his car in snow. What he definitely understands is that he shouldn't park in my driveway when it rains ice.
Why does he understand that he shouldn't park there?
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:49 PM   #68
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Wow I got schooled on laws in Quebec tonight. So FYI you don't need a superiority tone in your writing I lived in qc. I still have friends in qc and family in Toronto. I also drive vt nh upstate ny etc. everyone gets your point and simply would like proof instead of the one or two anecdotal points you have expressed. Also no need for personal attacks it weakens your position. Just my 2 cents
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:50 PM   #69
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I'm sure that STI2010 is correct that the STI's AWD system is top shelf, and far superior to our Impreza's AWD system. The extra $15k in purchase price should be buying something when you buy an STI.

But the AWD system in my 5-speed Impreza works well for the kind of driving I do. If that means I only need an open diff, then so be it. This past Monday, while other cars were struggling with the icy roads (not just snow, but ice), my control wasn't just adequate. It was perfect. I wasn't dealing with controllable slipping. I wasn't dealing with slipping at all.

Perhaps STI2010 is correct in that I only need an open diff. If that's the case, then my Impreza is perfect for me. I can live with that. There's no shame in that.

It's like a Ford F-350 owner saying that anyone who drives a Ford Ranger is driving crap. To which the Ford Ranger owner says, "Yeah, but all I need to do is haul mulch in the spring, and pick up some plywood and 2x4s from time to time. I really don't need an F-350." To which the F-350 owner says, "Yeah, well, your Ranger is crap anyway."

It's a stupid argument. The Ranger meets the needs of the mulch-buying Ranger owner. And my Impreza meets my needs. This does not make me feel inferior.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:53 PM   #70
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The Civic and the Impreza are in the same exact segment, it's a logical comparison. The A4 and Boss 302 aren't.



You bragged about how good of shape you're in, how high of standards you set for yourself, trash people's cars, call people idiots, mouthbreathers, and now have to let everyone know you're a powerlifter. I sure am glad this is the internet because you could probably kick my ass too.
AAAAARGH. It is not a logical comparison of an AWD system because you're comparing an AWD car to a FWD car. Who cares if they're in the same segment? If i lived in Miami, I'd prefer a FWD car, even if it were in the same price and class of an AWD counterpart. Why? Less parasitic drivetrain loss? Not as fugly? (subjective) The list goes on. What does you raping winter with AWD have anything to do with a Civic struggling in the snow? You still haven't shown me how a VCU is an better than a center open diff.

I didn't brag. I used fitness as an analogy the first time. You took it as bragging. I'll admit the second time came off as real douche territory. Do I come across as pompous? I'm sorry if I do. Maybe it's because it comes across differently in writing? Either way apologies.

P.S. I'm not a powerlifter, but I still use the big 3 to train for Strongman. And I'm really a big teddy bear; I don't kick people's asses, except on the internetz.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:54 PM   #71
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Having your AWD system proactive is certainly a plus, but it's also better because it actually can transfer a meaningful amount of torque between wheels as opposed to the VCU which transfers a negligible amount of torque per 100 rpm of engine speed.
1. The VCU doesn't care about engine speed at all. It sees only the delta between the front and rear axles.

2. The relationship between VCU rotation and torque transfer is exponential, not linear.

3. The torque it transfers is multiplied by 4.11 so it doesn't have to be nearly as large as a VC on a front or rear differential.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:57 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Commander Keen View Post
The 2012 is a completely different platform.



Why does he understand that he shouldn't park there?
It's a completely different car, as I understand it, but is the VDC really that different? I never bothered to look it up.

And he doesn't park there because he knows how bad his VCU is based on my experience parking there in those conditions with my 5MT Leggy, his ownership of an 09 5MT 2.5i, and my incessant rants about how bad the VCU is.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:01 PM   #73
Commander Keen
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I'm sure that STI2010 is correct that the STI's AWD system is top shelf, and far superior to our Impreza's AWD system.
Superior for what purpose?

For driving around in low power, low speed, poor traction situations that most people buy AWD for, the benefit is likely slim to none.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:02 PM   #74
sti2010rl
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Satin White Pearl

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Originally Posted by Commander Keen View Post
1. The VCU doesn't care about engine speed at all. It sees only the delta between the front and rear axles.

2. The relationship between VCU rotation and torque transfer is exponential, not linear.

3. The torque it transfers is multiplied by 4.11 so it doesn't have to be nearly as large as a VC on a front or rear differential.
The way I understood it was the the VCU warms up at different rotational speeds of the front and rear axles thus increasing its viscousity, after which it transfers torque at a rate of 4kg X M per 100 rpm. I'm not a VCU expert, so you may need to educate me.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:05 PM   #75
sgoldste01
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Originally Posted by Commander Keen View Post
Superior for what purpose?

For driving around in low power, low speed, poor traction situations that most people buy AWD for, the benefit is likely slim to none.
Commander, if you go back and read the rest of my previous post that you were quoting from, you will see that you and I are saying the same thing.
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