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Old 03-23-2013, 04:01 PM   #1
ALOKIN
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Default High IAT with COBB SF+box

So I was sitting in a McDonalds drive through for a couple minutes waiting to get my daughter a happy meal and decided play with my AP and took a peak at my IAT. It actually went a little higher than picytured ~165F


What worries me is, A: the temp today is unseasonably cool, its hot as balls 9 months out of the year down here.
B: while driving at speed the temps come down, but this is Houston, and you sit in traffic pretty much everyday.

I am going to reinstall the stocker this afternoon and take some logs to see if its any better. The airbox design has had drawn my suspicion since the day I put it in, it may have to go, just depends on what IAT I get with the stock intake/box.

Anyone else see numbers this high?

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Old 03-23-2013, 05:13 PM   #2
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I saw 161 intake temps today in this heat wave in South Florida. I have a turbo xs intake with thermal insulation. My brothers stock intake wrx only sees a max of about 130.
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Old 03-23-2013, 05:16 PM   #3
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Check it again while driving (that's where it really matters)!You'd be surprised how Hot things get while sitting still after driving.
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Old 03-23-2013, 05:22 PM   #4
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What did you expect when your filter is sitting in a hot engine bay? Have you taken the time to heat treat any of your components?
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Old 03-23-2013, 05:24 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by blue sedan View Post
Check it again while driving (that's where it really matters)!You'd be surprised how Hot things get while sitting still after driving.
Well that's the thing, once I sit in traffic or the Starbucks drive through for awhile, it takes quite some time of steady 50mph+ speeds to bring the IAT's down to ~30F above ambient.

I am curious as to how high and low the stock airbox IAT's are compared to the Cobb. Pretty sure its suffering from heat soak. I'll throw on the stock one after our dinner guests leave tonight and run it tomorrow. If its only 10 degrees or so different Ill put the Cobb back on, if its more than that its going on fleabay. I'll post my results.

Last edited by ALOKIN; 03-23-2013 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 03-23-2013, 05:34 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by HinshawWRX View Post
What did you expect when your filter is sitting in a hot engine bay? Have you taken the time to heat treat any of your components?
Thanks for the insightful response. Since you didn't really elaborate in your quick, and invaluable I might add, comment, am I left to draw the conclusion you are of the opinion that using the Cobb SF + Cobb airbox requires additional measures be taken for heat management?

Technically my filter is sitting in the Cobb airbox, which is the only heat management item I've installed for said purpose:

From Cobb's website:
Quote:
SF Air Box adds the benefits of a cold air intake to the outstanding performance of the SF Intake. The factory inlet directs cold air from the front grill to the SF Airbox, which encloses the SF Intake. Hot engine bay air that robs horsepower is prevented from entering the intake system to provide consistent intake performance. This unique design also separates rainwater from the intake air, eliminating the water ingestion issues that plague in-fender cold air intakes.
Again, I am only able to guess due to the brevity of your very helpful and insightful comment.

Last edited by ALOKIN; 03-23-2013 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 03-23-2013, 05:55 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALOKIN View Post
Thanks for the insightful response. Since you didn't really elaborate in your quick, and invaluable I might add, comment, am I left to draw the conclusion you are of the opinion that using the Cobb SF + Cobb airbox requires additional measures be taken for heat management?

Technically my filter is sitting in the Cobb airbox, which is the only heat management item I've installed for said purpose:

From Cobb's website:

Again, I am only able to guess due to the brevity of your very helpful and insightful comment.
I'm sure glad you responded to this very invaluable comment as I would have.
I have a Cobb SF sitting in my spare room(with too many other parts) waiting to get installed and was wondering if it'll be worth it. I have been thinking about sealing it off more from the engine bay somehow with weatherstrip and such. Maybe when I do I'll do a write up on it.
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Old 03-23-2013, 06:19 PM   #8
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I'm sure glad you responded to this very invaluable comment as I would have.
I have a Cobb SF sitting in my spare room(with too many other parts) waiting to get installed and was wondering if it'll be worth it. I have been thinking about sealing it off more from the engine bay somehow with weatherstrip and such. Maybe when I do I'll do a write up on it.
lol, Right on. "Valuable insight" on a 11+ STi from a guy who drives an 06 no less.

The Cobb box, even though its "designed" to keep engine bay heat out, is poorly designed to do the job. It's not sealed and its made from thin gauge Aluminum. Which acts like a heat capacitor or sorts, it quickly wicks up engine bay heat and holds onto it.

If we could get a "stock" type two part plastic box, that is sealed via large grommet around the Cobb maf housing and only gets air from "der snorkel" we would be in great shape. I have access to a very large laser sintering 3D printer at work. I may draw something up just to test out.
Stay tuned.
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Old 03-23-2013, 07:00 PM   #9
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It's funny when people are butthurt over the obvious. The stock intake box is the best designed COLD AIR intake you could get on these cars.

The Cobb box does not seal, does not get air from the front of the car, and allows heat to soak in and never truly dissipate.

06 or 11 makes no difference. Car is FUNDAMENTALLY the same. And guess what kiddo's, the 2011 STI is no different then the 2008. DUN DUN DUN

Now I'll go try and enjoy my IAT's being only 10* hotter then the ambient air. Man that's hard.
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Old 03-23-2013, 09:15 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by HinshawWRX View Post


It's funny when people are butthurt over the obvious. The stock intake box is the best designed COLD AIR intake you could get on these cars.

The Cobb box does not seal, does not get air from the front of the car, and allows heat to soak in and never truly dissipate.

06 or 11 makes no difference. Car is FUNDAMENTALLY the same. And guess what kiddo's, the 2011 STI is no different then the 2008. DUN DUN DUN

Now I'll go try and enjoy my IAT's being only 10* hotter then the ambient air. Man that's hard.


back to the land of relevance.... if you took a second to read before doing you're typical snarky, valueless reply you would see I mention the fact that I am going to reinstall and log the stocker to compare. I also make note of my opinion of the piss poor design of the cobb box and have had my misgivings since install (I've said as much on other threads). Please, go enjoy your IAT's. You obviously have nothing of value to add to this topic.

For the people that actually want to have empirical evidence instead of the dude's above word, Ill be posting it later tonight. I log the IAT via the AP as well as utilize two thermo-probes attached to a separate Fluke data logger. One measuring inside the box temps and one measuring outside, near box temps. Ill do the same with the stock box. Ill make sure to compensate for external temperature differences that result from conducting the two tests at different times.

Last edited by ALOKIN; 03-23-2013 at 09:30 PM.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:59 PM   #11
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You should buy my APS CAI. My IATs were at ambient most of the time.
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:13 PM   #12
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:13 PM   #13
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It seems that you are trying to prove what is already known. Any SRI will have higher IAT temps compared to any CAI. Given that the stock intake is a CAI and the Cobb intake is a SRI, what are you trying find out?

The Cobb airbox lowers IAT's compared to not having the airbox, but the intake is still a SRI. I suggest you log the stock intake, Cobb with airbox, and Cobb without airbox. I can give you the results you will get before hand though. The stock intake will have the lowest temps and the Cobb (or any other brand SRI) without an airbox will have the highest temps. The Cobb (or any other brand SRI) with an airbox will fall between the two. Look at the difference between IAT and ambient for the best results.

When you are sitting still, every SRI will suck air from the engine bay and therefore have higher IAT compared to a CAI (stock or aftermarket). The stock intake will get very high IAT sitting still also. It will just take longer to get there since it is sucking air from the front of the car vice the engine bay. The higher the IAT gets while sitting still, the longer it will take for IAT to come back down. Heat soak just sort of works that way.

When you are moving down the road the box will give you lower IAT compared to no box. I have seen many times driving down the road that IAT is within a couple degrees of the outside temp when I was using the Cobb SRI with airbox. I see essientially the same IAT to outside air temp relationship with the stock intake while driving down the road as I did with the Cobb/airbox. Maybe 1 degree lower IAT with the stock intake, but they were effectively the same because the Cobb airbox makes a difference.

If you want an airbox for a SRI that seals from the engine bay and uses the stock intake setup to feed the SRI air, then I would implore you to put some thought into what makes the aftermarket intakes less restrictive to begin with. The stock intake sucks air from the front of the car through a funnel and then it goes through a 180 degree turn in the fender to an airbox. Where in that sequence do you think the most restriction is? I will give you a hint, it is not the airbox. By sealing an airbox around a SRI and utilizing the stock intake pieces to feed it air, you are spending a lot of money to put essientially a stock intake on your car.

I would have to search for it again, but there was a test using a stock intake, a stock airbox with a port into the fender area replacing the funnel/180 degree pieces, and a SRI. They were doing flow based tests, not IAT testing. Guess what, the modified stock intake and SRI showed the same flow gain over the completely stock intake. This shows that the restriction is not the stock airbox, but the other two pieces of the stock intake.

So then, why not design a SRI airbox that seals and sucks from the fender area using a port? Is it cost effective to do so? Will people buy it? I do not know. Maybe I am giving someone with the means to design this intake an idea and they will steal it from me.
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:14 PM   #14
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Instead of doing logs tonight I ended up going over the dims of the Cobb intake as well as both the Cobb and stock airbox. I did some quick modeling in Solidworks and have at least a conceptual design with valid dims. Ill spend the next couple of days using standard design techniques and then print the shell on the bigboy printer at my office. Its going to be pretty much a clone of the stock box with a little more room inside, no baffle tube, and a symmetrical opening for the cobb intake, to be sealed off with a large grommet that will fit around the intake and between the two airbox halves.

Here's a quick snapshot of one half, keep in mind this model is just a conceptual place holder using good dims. it will be fine tuned and look like a real part before long.



I have a small extruder based printer (M2 for those that know) in my home office and I decided to make a scale model of my conceptual airbox just for ****s (I am always finding a reason to use it )

https://vimeo.com/62527904


Quote:
So then, why not design a SRI airbox that seals and sucks from the fender area using a port? Is it cost effective to do so? Will people buy it? I do not know. Maybe I am giving someone with the means to design this intake an idea and they will steal it from me.
Great post. Should be just as easy as making a stock style box that uses the stock snorkel. Ill try both as I would only have to make a different one half. Thanks for the input!

FWIW I doubt I'll progress much further than printing myself a few boxes to play with. At 3D printing costs no one would want to pay the price for a one off and to have tooling machined for IM would cost more than the market will produce in sales. Something this size and complexity (5+ cavities with multiple inserts) would easily be >$100K in tooling. Which is prob the reason Cobb went with laser cut Al sheet for their "airbox".

Last edited by ALOKIN; 03-23-2013 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:25 PM   #15
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Something I just remembered, 08+ intakes do not have a 180 degree piece in the fender area. Overall I would say the 08+ intakes have less restriction due to this, maybe that is part of why Subaru redesigned it.

The concept is the same though and I am sure it is very achievable with the right gear. It seems that you have the right gear (at least by "borrowing" the company equipment) to get what you want. Interested to see what you end up with.
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Old 03-24-2013, 01:30 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by jebjkey View Post
Overall I would say the 08+ intakes have less restriction due to this, maybe that is part of why Subaru redesigned it.
As an 08+ owner, that part made me chuckle a little, since the 08+ WRX's are just reskinned 05 LGT's.
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Old 03-24-2013, 04:12 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HinshawWRX View Post


It's funny when people are butthurt over the obvious. The stock intake box is the best designed COLD AIR intake you could get on these cars.

The Cobb box does not seal, does not get air from the front of the car, and allows heat to soak in and never truly dissipate.

06 or 11 makes no difference. Car is FUNDAMENTALLY the same. And guess what kiddo's, the 2011 STI is no different then the 2008. DUN DUN DUN

Now I'll go try and enjoy my IAT's being only 10* hotter then the ambient air. Man that's hard.
Actually, the Cobb intake with box retains the snorkel ... so it does draw air from the front of the vehicle just like the stock box, and also from the fender well.



I do agree that the box does a very poor job of sealing, and that is my major complaint with it. I did quite a bit of work on mine to seal it up decently. Had Cobb designed the box to seal up better, and maybe used a composite material instead of metal, it would probably be a pretty good design ... but of course they didn't.

If I could go back in time, I would not buy it and would just stick with the stock box .. but since I'm invested in it, I feel obligated to tinker with it.
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:10 AM   #18
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Seal the box using rubber moulding and add reflective tape to it.

Really though, even an open element sitting in the engine bay should stay close to ambient temp. When you're idling in traffic, there's no airflow through it to keep it cool.
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Old 03-24-2013, 08:17 AM   #19
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Are you thinking of something like this? I feed this with a 4" ram air from my lower front bumper vent on my XTI.

The Cobb SF intake is actually a good intake! I used it with my custom cold air box to make 535 WHP on E85 and a speed density tune. The Cobb SF did become a restriction so I made a simple 3" SR intake tube without a MAF, with a velocity stack and huge Vibrant cone filter that fits the Velocity stack. This intake and cold air box supports 560 WHP on my XTI.




You can get more detail off of my thread in PPB here. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2480570

Last edited by manitou; 03-25-2013 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 03-24-2013, 08:25 AM   #20
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The Cobb sf intake box is thin, black, metal. I used to have one myself until I did my own infrared study on the product. Despite its poor design, the black color does it in. Black componants in the engine bay attract and abdorb heat to put in simply.


A good reflective product is what's needed to improve that situation. On the outside I would put dei's reflect a gold all over the exterior, then in the interior they have an aluminum adhesive product with fiberglass underneath to insulate the inside of the box.

Then after that those 180F coolant lines that are directly attached to the intake tract are hurting your iat as well. That heat conducts a little ways in both directions. You won't be able to see how bad those hurt you because they are after the Maf sensor. You will need a infrared camera to see the effects the best.

Your downpipe and turbo are killing your engine bay temps as well. You need a good quality turbo blanket, some exhaust wrap for your downpipe, or a downpipe blanket for the ultimate performance. I can help you with the turbo blanket but everything else refer to my infrared threads in the 2.5L drivetrain section.

Pm me with any questions or help you need anytime. There are many factors that are hurting your intake air temps in your engine bay that you may not realize.
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Old 03-24-2013, 08:42 AM   #21
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I agree, a turbo blanket is a must really and I wrapped my down pipe also.

With a cold air box and or a stock air box, it's best to feed it cold air from outside the engine bay like my ram air solution. I have run this 4" ram air for 4 years since going stage 2 with the stock box and still use it with my bigger power build!

The other thing is the IAT is in the wrong spot for accurate readings to help the ECU with temperature compensations. The IAT should be located post inter cooler or specifically right in front of the throttle body to show the ECU what intake temps the motor is seeing. It does not matter if you are running a MAF tune or speed density tune the IAT sensor should be where I described.

With my AEM IAT sensor located under TMIC and in front of the throttle body. I consistently log temps 3-4* over ambient. It of course show a higher differential on high boost pulls.

Last edited by manitou; 03-24-2013 at 09:43 AM.
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:25 AM   #22
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:41 AM   #23
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I asked this in another thread in general and got a couple of answers both of which said no, but since it is being discussed here again ill ask and seeks some more opinions.

I too have the cobb air box and see high IATs especially during the hot texas summer.

I dont really like the look of the dei foil on the airbox. Would ceramic coating the box yield benefits as far as reducing IATs?
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:50 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StackSmasher View Post
I asked this in another thread in general and got a couple of answers both of which said no, but since it is being discussed here again ill ask and seeks some more opinions.

I too have the cobb air box and see high IATs especially during the hot texas summer.

I dont really like the look of the dei foil on the airbox. Would ceramic coating the box yield benefits as far as reducing IATs?
the ceramic coating in black will turn that box into an oven and will be hotter than without coating. It will yield a strange infrared signature and perform poorly. I cannot speak for ceramic coatings of other light colors like white however.






Texas summer= turbo blanket/ lava wrap
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:58 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StackSmasher View Post
I asked this in another thread in general and got a couple of answers both of which said no, but since it is being discussed here again ill ask and seeks some more opinions.

I too have the cobb air box and see high IATs especially during the hot texas summer.

I dont really like the look of the dei foil on the airbox. Would ceramic coating the box yield benefits as far as reducing IATs?
Yes, any coating with thermal properties will reduce the heat soak to the box. I had mine ceramic coated after I customized it, I then used a foil faced sound insulation on the inside which helps also. You should really try to feed your air box from another air source like I mentioned above.

I would also re-locate a new IAT sensor (AEM is a bit quicker reacting than the GM sensor) where I described above even with a MAF based tune. It's very easy to do. You use the MAF in it's stock location and cut the 2 wires that are connected to the stock IAT sensor in the MAF unit and splice into these 2 wires and pull them to the new IAT location which should be in the direct airflow in front of or just after the throttle body.
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