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Old 01-12-2013, 09:26 PM   #1
dr20t
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Default Engine identification help - ej207 grb quad avcs motor

Hi All,

I've searched and searched and spoken to many people across the globe in relation to this queation, and I am putting this here as a Hail Mary to be honest.

I recently purchased an EJ207 long block from an importer here in Australia.

The bit that im certain on is that motor is from a JDM GRB Sti.

It was sold to me as a "blueprinted, hand assembled fully forged jdm grb spec c motor".

It's definitely from a grb as is has the W20 head castings with the jdm big port heads, quad avcs.

It's definitely a two litre as it clearly states EJ20 on the block. It has blue paint on the top of the block which I've read in various places was the manner in which the blueprinted factory Subaru motors were differentiated from other ej207's. I am prepared however to accept that maybe somewhere along the line this "blue paint" was added to give off the impression that this was one of those blueprinted motors.

I was also told this was in a legacy race car in Japan, which had complete grb drivetrain conversion (motor, box, diff etc). So it's definitely not a legacy motor.

Nonetheless I am having conflicting data left right and centre.

This is what I know:

1. The jdm grb Sti 2.0 litres all had quad avcs and w20 on the heads whichy motor DOES have

2. The grb ej207 came out in two versions - revision a and b. Vlad from here and I suspect that revision a was just like all prevjous ej207 semi closed defk blocks. we know the spec c only came out after revision b. We suspect revision B received the "new" style ej207 blocks which are 3/4 closed deck (ie thicker cylinder liners which take up alot more room and are more sturdy than the previous ej207 semi closed decks

3. My motor is from a grb Sti at minimum. Hopefully spec c with the updated block and crank.

My heads are coming off end of this week to fit new headstuds and gaskets, so will know for certain whether its the latest style 3/4 closed deck blocks

The casting numbers are what is confusing me however.

Block is stamped B25C 701 on both halves. (Refer pics)

Clearly states EJ20 on the block

Heads are W20 quad avcs

Engine number is very different and starts out W07DDXXX (x's being my encryption here to protect the engine number). The x's are numbers.

From my research, all b25c 701 blocks were ej25 and were ej257 Sti short blocks.

This cannot be the case with this - its definitely a 2.0 litre - it says ej20 too.

I have posted some pics which I hope will help someone here give me some guidance.

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/8633/imagevzt.jpg

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9664/imagenhc.jpg

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/3457/imagemskq.jpg

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/8380/imagetoki.jpg

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/7782/imageqwt.jpg


Any help greatly appreciated

Mick
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Old 01-12-2013, 09:35 PM   #2
dr20t
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Also one other thing I forgot to mention is the webbing looks different to any other EJ block I've seen before (the intertwined v webbing towards the block deck is what I'm referring to).

I'm hoping this might indicate its the later 3/4 closed casting.

Anyone who can shed some light on this may know better though

Cheers
Mick
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Old 01-13-2013, 08:12 AM   #3
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Mick's work will help open the door for the Spec C GRB swaps, it's an awesome opportunity that will come through.

His engine blueprinting does not refer to a retail engine, I think this was a racing engine, maybe Group N+.
Blueprinting is a process of putting together an engine (at the factory or a factory subcontractor), where tolerances in internal components are used to create a "factory freak". These days the factory may mark them, crate them and sell them to teams.

here's a story that I got from back in the 80's:

In the old country, in my home town there was a factory building 4 cylinder boxer engines, aircooled, carbureted, roughly 1.1 displacement, good for 57 hp.

There was a national rally championship, where the factory boys were competing with this other factory team, that used 1.3 engines, in-line 4 cylinder, good for 54 hp.
Regulations were pretty tight, of a Group N nature.

So both teams set out to make factory freak engines, by blueprinting and also weight select-ballancing.
I never found out what the "other guys" achieved, but a local engineer whispered that "our car" now was puting out 70 Hp, regulation compliant. (worth to mention that this car weighed 1700 lb). No two engines had the same output and the emissions were never tested.

They had spent months picking the largest this and smallest that and lightest the other, off of the engine assembly line. The factory did not mind this kind of internal cost.
On paper, it was just another car, just like the one me and my neighbor used to have at the time..



This below, is the 3/4 closed deck GRB EJ207 (this part has nothing to do with blueprinting), that we hope to ID from casting marks, so that people don't have to open a long block GRB EJ207, to find out what they have. Mick will open his longblock, this will hopefully provide the answer.
Right now, the info is that there were two GRB EJ207, so you wouldn't know which you have, by buying one used. The other one is supposed to be a plain EJ207 shortblock.



Last edited by Vlad; 01-13-2013 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 01-13-2013, 01:58 PM   #4
dr20t
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Many thanks again Vlad for sharing.

Indeed this will help identify those blocks which have the thicker castings externally so people know what they're getting

I have the same pic as the one you have posted above - however I have only just noticed the casting mark on top of the nearest most cylinder on right hand side.

It looks like W20C but maybe someone with better image software can confirm?

Also the intertwined v webbing towards the top of the deck is evident which is the same as mine.

Will soon know I guess.

Mick
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:44 AM   #5
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Bit of an update - might have some interesting info coming through on this motor shortly

Initial confirmations are that this was one of the r205 grb test mule motors (this blueprinting).

Specs I'm told are :

Was orginally fitted to the R205 test mule, it is a 2010 Spec block with new Spec heads. It has 264/284 cams and AVCS gears are up to 50 degrees in, 45 exhaust
Heads should flow 330+CFM@28InHg

Waiting on paperwork to confirm and will scan up once at hand

Mick
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:17 AM   #6
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Ok pulled rocker covers off today.

Revealed cams were definitely not oem

Couldn't measure exact duration but the exhaust was definitely larger than intake

Measured lift with verniers from cam lobe plus bottom base circle - 10.5mm on exhaust, 9.5mm on intake

The cams also had some hand engraved numbers and markings on the shafts - didn't jot them down but will do tomorrow.

Head bolts were also not oem looking. They were not a head stud style but had blue markings on the hex heads.

I'm researching the head bolts from the numbers on them before pulling the heads off, as it may not even need the new arp custom aged headstuds I bought already

Will keep the post updated for those interested

Mick
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:25 AM   #7
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:08 AM   #8
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Interesting and nice rare peice there.
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:33 AM   #9
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Do you have pictures of the head studs? My 207's studs are all painted blue.
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:36 AM   #10
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Intake is supposed to be 9.4mm +/- 0.1
Exhaust 10.5mm +/- 0.1

This for Spec C GRB.

Last edited by Vlad; 01-18-2013 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:46 AM   #11
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Will get some pics of the head bolts tomorrow. I suspect maybe these are the same as your 207 then, and thus maybe better for all if I take the heads off and replace the head bolts with the arp ones I have . That way we can find out the type of block this is

Vlad I think my measurements are flawed. The lift should be higher i believe given the non standard nature of the cams. This sort of confirms the specs I was told by my contact from looking up the engine number

Heads might be off before end of the day tomorrow (midnight here now)

Mick
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:01 AM   #12
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Actually, I posted the values that account for the valve clearance as well.

I've corected it now.
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:15 AM   #13
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Vlad perhaps you can point me in the right direction

My measurement was done using vernier calipers. I measured the top of the cam lobe to the middle, and then subtracted the base circle thickness from the bottom.

Is that the correct way to measure lift on these cams?
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:57 AM   #14
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I can actually do better.
There are published numbers for the cams overall height, including lobe and base circle:
46.4mm+/-0.1 intake
47.5mm+/-0.1 exhaust

these should be easy to compare for you.
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:25 AM   #15
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I'm constantly impressed with your data, Vlad. Someday I'd like to meet you and buy you a drink. Strong work.

If you're ever in AZ, hit me up. There are a lot of us 207 guys out here...
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:05 PM   #16
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Vlad - again thank you for the wealth of knowledge

I measured the cams - the lift is exacty as oem spec c. 47.5 exh and 46.4 inlet as measured on calibrated verniers

So looks like stock cams and therefore the info I was given about the origins of the motor was incorrect

The strange thing is the hand engraving on the camshafts?? Both of them

Mick
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:08 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpluiten View Post
I'm constantly impressed with your data, Vlad. Someday I'd like to meet you and buy you a drink. Strong work.

If you're ever in AZ, hit me up. There are a lot of us 207 guys out here...
Thank you.
There is a lot more that we can do.
And sure, I'll keep this in mind
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:11 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr20t View Post
Vlad - again thank you for the wealth of knowledge

I measured the cams - the lift is exacty as oem spec c. 47.5 exh and 46.4 inlet as measured on calibrated verniers

So looks like stock cams and therefore the info I was given about the origins of the motor was incorrect

The strange thing is the hand engraving on the camshafts?? Both of them

Mick
Mick,
The same cams WERE used for Group N engines. The Spec C is designed to be group N friendly, if you ask me.
There is nothing wrong with what you found, these are some good cams.

Now, you're lagging with some photos, friend. We need to see those bolts and those engravings.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:28 AM   #19
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Seriously needs some pics.....................
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:14 AM   #20
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Ok guys. Some info and pics finally:

Heads came off. The following info was revealed:

1. Thicker castings - measured at 13.2mm with verniers
2. Slightly dished pistons (look like V8 forged ones)
3. B25c block casting

I think I can now explain the b25c 701 block casting as follows. As I previously suspected, this block started life as a ej257 block (b25c), although clearly has the ej20 stamp on top of the block

The cylinder liners look to be the same as the ej257 although bored to 92.5mm instead of 99.5mm of the ej257. This gives an additional 7mm of liner thickness, which accounts for the difference in thickness between the previous ej207 and ej257 semi closed deck blocks (6mm).

Cams are hand engraved as follows:

Exhaust cams: FOP 06 -- 0 and AOKOOA00 R - EX F624 (left is same except L instead of R)
Inlet cams : hard to read first bit then AOKOOAOO R IN F024

Headgasket has one number: 6-1364 in top right hand corner. We lined this up against an ej257 headgasket and all water jackets were identical (bore obviously being different) - we didn't have an ej207 headgasket lying around unfortunately.

So here are the pics:













Hope this helps some guys trying to find the grb ej207

Mick

Last edited by dr20t; 01-26-2013 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:30 AM   #21
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Those cams are similar to the EJ255/EJ257 cams in terms of construction. Basically they are largely hollow and the lobes are pressed on. The AVCS portion is friction welded on. Much lighter than the EJ207 cams in the V8 and V9. Those cams are machined from a heavy single casting. I don't know if that's how all the cams are on the newer motors of if these are some strange one-offs for this strange motor you've got. Thanks for the images. Maybe add IMG tags to them so we don't have to click each one to view?
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Old 01-26-2013, 10:29 AM   #22
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edited kpluiten

and yes i agree they are hollow - very much like my quad avcs ADM legacy \ liberty cams

Any light anyone can shed on the pistons?

Mick
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Old 01-26-2013, 01:24 PM   #23
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Great info. I have a lot to work with now and to update.
About pistons, so far, the info I have is that they are cast. I don't have anything confirmed though.
Your particular engine could have forged but if they had to meet group N conditions and stock they are cast, they would be cast.
The reverse logic is that if your pistons are cast, most likely the stock GRB spec c are cast too.

The way to know is to look under them.

Btw, there was a recent confusion, so:
With worldwide EJ207, they stayed single scroll and forged pistons for V8, while forJDM they went twinscroll and cast pistons for V8.
They continued cast.
The V10 GRB ej207 has TGV , functional too. To me this shows worry about emissions. If the forged pistons are inferior with start-up emissions, I say they would not have gone this route.
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Old 01-26-2013, 03:56 PM   #24
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Subscribe for future reading as this sounds like a crazy awesome engine
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Old 01-26-2013, 04:25 PM   #25
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Thanks Vlad

Either way the hypercast are apparently still quite resilient. What's the max boost people have been running on the hypercast?

What's your thoughts on my logic for the block casting ?

Mick
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