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Old 01-26-2013, 08:53 PM   #26
Vlad
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I worked today, give me a bit of time, I'll post tomorrow.
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Old 01-26-2013, 08:57 PM   #27
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with pleasure mate thanks for all your help
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Old 01-27-2013, 08:46 AM   #28
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Ok, back to the engineering detective work..

I was thinking about the factory process of making these blocks.
They cast the aluminum shell, they select and machine the measurement base, then it probably goes to a very advanced programmable machining unit... fast forward... they press in the factory sleeves.

Now, with the EJ257, from what I can tell, the factory sleeves account for... let's call it 90% of the viewable thickness from above?
In other words, when you would look at a block with no sleeves, before it gets to the sleeve-pressing unit, it would look like this:



Now, when you look from above, you usually notice the headgasket seating circle on top of the sleeves.
Only after cleaning and looking closely, should you be able to see the material separation line between aluminum and cast iron.

The problem for me is that the photo above is the best I could find and I'm not 100% sure that in reality, ANY aluminum makes it all the way up..

If they are supposed to, then a big question is:
The additional thickness increase, as seen from above the sleeves is 100% a cast iron increase, or is it an aluminum increase as well?
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Old 01-27-2013, 08:58 AM   #29
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It would make sense that the increase should mean that you have the same engine block for everyone, EJ207 and EJ257.
Then, for 207, you press different sleeves.
This is a factory efficiency improvement and I suspect an engineer somewhere would get a raise for unifying the process for the two engines, because of saving costs.

Maybe, if you want to carefully wipe the topside of the sleeve, and take a photo, we could see this.

Other than this, my theory is based on your observation and idea, that this is basically the same block as a 257.

They basically CAN make the 257 into a reliable engine at the factory, because... they can do anything, they are the factory...

We already know, from the built section that the sleeved engines are the ones that can support increased power and torque so "sleeving" a EJ257 to make it a 207 is not a bad idea.

Then of course, they give it the 207 rotating assembly, which stops the piston at TDC below the deck, another feature that makes it more reliable.
Yes, it makes sense.

Ok, now as far as pistons.
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:26 AM   #30
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This is what I have, for a GRB EJ207. I think it has the pattern at the top and you can see casting marks on the side.

The dome is not clearly visible, but I think it's just a low quality photo and it may be there.
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:04 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr20t View Post
Either way the hypercast are apparently still quite resilient. What's the max boost people have been running on the hypercast?
I have read two opinions and reviews about this engine in the past.
One was that in Japan they reflash and rev these to 9000 RPM. There was something about these taking more PSI, but these are only rumors.

I definitely recall a guy importing into NZ a complete GRB Spec C vehicle, taking it to the track, having a problem (maybe fueling) and then posting in a forum.

There could be somebody running a full GRB spec C swap in US (a matching set of parts off the car was sold), but so far nobody has posted.
There is a thread on Romraider where one of these engines gets tuned by one of the gurus.

One thing that may be relevant, is to ask in the built engine section if sleeved blocks give them any additional capabillities, with pistons and fuel being the same.

You will have to explore with your tuner and find out..

Cast pistons are really not a problem, proper tuning and fueling takes them really far.

Mick, if this works for you, I'd like to use your info in the EJ207 info thread, let's give people the abillity to look for and swap these engines.
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:07 AM   #32
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Vlad you are awesome

However it is now I who must sleep and will respond in the morning

Thank you

Mick
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:52 AM   #33
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Thank you and sure thing.
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Old 01-27-2013, 07:11 PM   #34
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Vlad - happy for you to use whatever information required.

In terms of the factory block assembly process, I tend to agree with you that they can do anything from factory. Especially if there are efficiencies / scale to be gained by using one block for their two "high performance" engines - being the 257 and 207.

I know what you are referring to in terms of material difference being visible - and yes you are correct, there is clearly a difference in material (I'd attributed 6mm of this to the aluminium and the reminder to the ductile iron sleeve.

Sleeving assists in resisting the extreme cylinder pressures of a high power motor. The nature of this will assist in avoiding bore flex under heavy load.

Pistons are as you say only as weak as their resistance to detonation. Safe tune etc and this risk is reduced although never completely eliminated. I'm running e85 which has higher knock resistance properties, but is still not a foolproof deterrent to knock.

In any event, the saving graces here are two things:

1. The ej207 jdm big port heads, especially the w20 ones, are very efficient. As you know, boost is a measurement of restriction in the inlet. Thus, given the efficiency of the heads, I highly doubt even with my largish turbo that I will ever see boost of over 26psi.

2. The decreased capacity (2.0 as opposed to 2.5) of the ej207 in a ej257 sleeve casting.

The avcs two points mean the material stresses on the motor are *reduced*. Reduced here in comparison to a bigger capacity less efficient motor.

The dynamic compression will be still higher than most other 2.0 litres, and cylinder pressures will be high, but I guess the pistons / bores are not being asked to withstand a war zone.

Peak cylinder pressure always occurs at peak torque point, which means avcs tuning is super important at this point to generate exh gas and inlet velocity to ensure cylinder pressures are assisted.

And thus my reasoning for going with arp headstuds to keep a lid on things (no pun intended ).

Hopefully the hypertec pistons are up to task. A part of me is contemplating replacing these with proper forged items while the motor is out but this would involve splitting case halves etc which I'm not prepared for at this stage.

Thanks again for your assistance Vlad. I will keep you informed of progress in chasing my target of 320kw atw

Mick
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Old 02-01-2013, 08:14 PM   #35
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So by way of update, I have found that the headgaskets for these motors are unique to the grb

They use the ej257 water gallery pattern and dowels, but have a 2.0 litre 93mm bore.

This confirms my theory that they have used a 257 block and bored to suit 2.0 litre pistons.

due to this situation my headgaskets are on back order and won't be here for a while - had to come from Japan (I went with the tomei's)

So given the delay, I'm tossing up whether to change pistons for forged items, which I since found can be done without splitting the cases.

Vlad / others - is there any indication the hyperteutetic pistons will not hold up to my desired power level of 450whp? I'm hoping the additional sleeve support in this motor will withstand the high cylinder pressures, which will keep them concentric for longer and thus avoid damage

The reason most pistons fail in EJ motors is either detonation breaking ring lands (which I cant see happening with the hypertecs as they're stronger than cast), or from high cylinder pressures warping the cylinder walls and causing the piston to catch on the bore and collapse.

In light of this, seeking opinions on whether its worth updating the pistons to proper forged items while the heads are off?

Alternatively, seeking evidence that maybe these are indeed forged pistons in the spec c grb.

The pistons are exactly like the pic Vlad posted above - which to me look different to the V8 / V9 ej207 pistons I've seen on the Internet

Any help appreciated

Mick
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:37 PM   #36
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People here in UK run on JDM engine easily 500bhp,few of them run 550bhp(at wheels should be around yours desired power).

I know few people run on v9 Spec C high 500bhp without the problem for few months,but how long engine will last is question at this level

I would go with Forged pistons,have look on the Cosworth pistons or other makers,second bit if you are thinking go with better pistons,maybe is worth go with better rods(Carrillo or other makers)

Jura
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Old 02-02-2013, 09:12 AM   #37
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Read in the built engine section.

There are many people running high power levels. It's just a different proposition. You build the engine, run it and every 20.000 Miles take it apart for inspection and refresh.
There are many that race the cars, trailer them to sites and don't mind this at all.

You know how every racing solution is a pain ?
You get floating rotors with aluminum hats, you now have light and effective brakes, but have to begin checking for cracks.

With Aluminum lug nuts (which I never would use), you have to start re torquing them every week.
Maintenance becomes a job.
As far as forged pistons: they are not a way to fix everything.
Your average built engine section thread goes like this:
Broke my ring lands, on my ej257. I have to take the engine apart, I'm doing forged pistons.
Now I have the engine running, broke it in for 1000 miles, I am stepping on it now, feels great.
Now I have 10,000 miles on this rebuild, yesterday I started to see a lot of smoke and loss of power.

Time for the refresh, then......

And with the cast pistons, would be time for ring lands again.

Either way, you're breaking it open. With forged there are different parts you would buy, that's all.

There is a WHP number sweet spot, as far as I'm concerned, where the engine retains full 150,000 Miles reliability. Once you exceed it, reliability takes a nosedive.
And this spot is surprisingly high, if you ask me.
So the trick for me is to stay below that, as opposed to pick a power number and shoot for that.

Last edited by Vlad; 02-02-2013 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 03-23-2013, 09:56 PM   #38
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Some updates on my build - almost ready and will be tuned this Wednesday on e70 with a blended speed density / maf tune

Decided to stick with stock bottom end and just add ARP custom aged 625 head studs + tomei mls headgaskets with fusion rings.

Here are some pics of the assembled motor:
















Hoping to crack 450whp with the 5eat

Mick
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Old 08-08-2013, 08:44 AM   #39
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So just realized that I hadn't updated this thread.

The motor is running fine. However I'm still running on a base tune due to the car being to the tuner three times with the following problems at each time preventing full tune:

1. Out of round tires on new wheels causing severe vibration. Changed them and went back the following week and had:

2. Transmission slip which wouldn't allow lock up.

3. Rebuilt and strengthened 5eat went in last week then went on the dyno. Stock wiring to fuel pump was not supporting the high current draw of the walbro 460lph.

It still made 278kw atw (equivalent to circa 400whp from a mustang dyno) @6000rpm on 24 psi with fuel surge.

Fuel pump is being hard wired and going back on the 22nd August for full tune - hoping to crack 330 awkw (450-460whp)

Quad Avcs is working perfectly and the motor is so sweet to rev

Even with a rich as hell tune, the twist mounted gtx3076 hits boost threshold at 1900rpm in 3rd gear, and makes 24psi boost by 4200 rpm with conservative ignition and cam timing and rich mixture on spool.

Hoping to get full boost all in by 3500rpm once completely tuned to 28/29psi

Many thanks once again to Vlad for the info and assistance in identifying this motor.

I know of a couple more guys here in Australia that are now pursuing this option after seeing some of the work we've done.


Mick
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Old 08-08-2013, 11:06 AM   #40
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I am glad to help anytime.

Let's see many GRB ( and GRB hybrid) swaps completed. ...
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Old 08-14-2013, 10:46 AM   #41
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So after hard wiring the walbro 460lph fuel pump (retained upgraded fuel pump controller to regulate negative earth voltage and thus duty cycle), fuel pressure is holding fine

Popped error code P0103 last night - maxxed out my 3.5" blow through maf at 24psi and rich as hell

This maf pipe is good for 450whp so its exceeding that at the moment

Thankfully I have a blended sd rom so will be switched to map after 18psi when its properly tuned next week

Mick
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Old 08-14-2013, 01:21 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr20t View Post
So after hard wiring the walbro 460lph fuel pump (retained upgraded fuel pump controller to regulate negative earth voltage and thus duty cycle), fuel pressure is holding fine

Popped error code P0103 last night - maxxed out my 3.5" blow through maf at 24psi and rich as hell

This maf pipe is good for 450whp so its exceeding that at the moment

Thankfully I have a blended sd rom so will be switched to map after 18psi when its properly tuned next week

Mick
Who is tuning it, and would it be available for others to download to their ECU?
Since these parts are oem, there will be a rash of ppl trying to recreate that engine(i believe) soon.

--Keith
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Old 08-14-2013, 03:57 PM   #43
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There is a number of people that are running all kinds of power in the built engine section.
The catch here, is that there is great potential for Mick to not only make this kind of power, but sustain reliabillity as well, say...over 100k Miles?

I personally would like to see this thread bumped with updates, so we can see how this monster of a EJ207 is holding up in the long haul..

And I am hoping that many follow suite, at least with a GRB EJ207 short block, or block castings.
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Old 08-14-2013, 06:31 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad View Post
There is a number of people that are running all kinds of power in the built engine section.
The catch here, is that there is great potential for Mick to not only make this kind of power, but sustain reliabillity as well, say...over 100k Miles?

I personally would like to see this thread bumped with updates, so we can see how this monster of a EJ207 is holding up in the long haul..

And I am hoping that many follow suite, at least with a GRB EJ207 short block, or block castings.
This is what ppl want, reliability in a built engine. Im all about "building" an oem engine that has the freak power and goes 150k! Getting any built engine to go that long seems unreasonable judging by the built motor section. Most issues seem to be tunes ruining engines, not poorly built parts failing.

Thanks for doing this thread and the related leg work. I understand it may be a passion for some rather than a chore, regardless, i would like to personally thank you! And Mick

--Keith
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Old 08-14-2013, 06:53 PM   #45
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Thanks guys


To be honest I'm not looking for the engine to last more than 35,000 to 40,000kms - but if it does then that's a bonus

At those sort of power levels I think we have to expect that things will break

But I will keep this thread updated with details

Mick
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Old 08-22-2013, 07:58 AM   #46
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So my formal tune is tomorrow


Have hard wired my fuel pump using zorro's method from this site. Keeping fuel pump control module regulating negative voltage through upgraded 10ag wiring. Also used same size wiring for power side through relay etc.

I'm now maxing out my 3.5" maf. Logs shows 526 grams / second of air on 24psi at 6200 rpm, which gives an indication of the power this thing can make I reckon.

Wish me luck will update tomorrow
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Old 11-05-2013, 02:24 AM   #47
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Update?
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Old 11-05-2013, 03:04 AM   #48
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Update?
Saw this thing trap 125mph, approx 450whp
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Old 11-05-2013, 03:28 AM   #49
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whoa cool engine
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Old 11-05-2013, 04:03 AM   #50
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Yeah it's up and running. As 0STi6 said I've trapped 125.4mph in it.

Made 307awkw on a dyno here in Sydney. However that was with an exhaust restriction which has since been removed and road tuned. Making circa 330awkw now.

This is with an atp housing (0.82 t28 flanged entry, 2.5" v band t31 style exit) which is pretty restrictive I've read.

Have since purchased a genuine garret t3 flanged housing with 3" v band outlet. This will be fitted next week and hope to pick up 400-500rpm of spool and 30-40hp up top.

So should make around 350awkw once retuned with new housing.

Here is a link to another thread I made with some vids


http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2550245
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