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Old 02-07-2013, 04:16 PM   #26
Sid03SVT
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I'm sorry was anybody suprised by the outcome for the comparos?

FWD+snows > AWD+All Seasons
RWD+snows > AWD+All Seasons
AWD+snows > FWD+snows or RWD+snows

AWD is not safer or better in the winter, winter tires are safer and better in the winter, no matter which wheels drive your car.

The three basic driving forces are Acceleration, Deceleration and Handling (lateral) - AWD helps with one of those, correct tires help with all three of them.

STOP WASTING MY INTERNET TIME!!!

Nah I'm just kidding, its the internet, I'm on it, at least it's not Goatse, *******, 2grls1cup or blue waffles <----do not google search those things, especially not back to back
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Old 02-07-2013, 05:04 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
I

The three basic driving forces are Acceleration, Deceleration and Handling (lateral) - AWD helps with one of those, correct tires help with all three of them.

Doesn't AWD help with two of those, acceleration and handling (lateral) as it can transfer power from front to back and side to side depending on which side has traction? Unless I am missing something.
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Old 02-07-2013, 06:04 PM   #28
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Most street cornering isn't done with lots of power being applied, so I'd argue that in real world driving the advantages of AWD for cornering are limited.
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Old 02-07-2013, 06:20 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
AWD is not safer or better in the winter, winter tires are safer and better in the winter, no matter which wheels drive your car.
You're comparing drivetrain to tires? Why can't I put winter tires on the AWD car too?
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Old 02-07-2013, 06:38 PM   #30
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You're comparing drivetrain to tires? Why can't I put winter tires on the AWD car too?
I am not saying AWD with snow tires isn't the best option for winter handling, I believe it is the best option; I'm saying that a set of snow tires will improve your winter driving ability far more than AWD with All-seasons will, much like a proper set of summer tires will improve your summer driving more than AWD with all-seasons will; it's about how much force you can put to the ground at a given time, aside from the initial acceleration advantage of AWD due to splitting the power across all four tires instead of two, for the majority of turning and braking scenarios, it doesn't matter which wheels the engine sends power to, because in both of those situations you are relying on the TIRES to handle the lateral forces and braking forces. The common misconception that AWD is better in the snow for the sake that it's AWD completely ignores this fact and I don't understand why people still believe it.

not trying to pee in anyones cheerios, just stating the fact that tires are more important than where your engine sends power when winter driving is concerned, and since I stepped into it, summer driving as well (assuming same chassis with same power output).
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Old 02-07-2013, 06:41 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
Most street cornering isn't done with lots of power being applied, so I'd argue that in real world driving the advantages of AWD for cornering are limited.
Street cornering in very low traction conditions is a different thing. Every winter for about 20 years I've seen lots of folks visiting ski resorts from the bay area in their 4WD SUV's that lift the throttle in the middle of the turn as soon as their back end begins to lose traction instead of gently maintaining throttle. Sometimes these brainiacs even slam the brake mid-turn. Can you guess what happens? I'd say in the real snowy world knowing how to drive > awd.
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Old 02-07-2013, 06:47 PM   #32
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Street cornering in very low traction conditions is a different thing. Every winter for about 20 years I've seen lots of folks visiting ski resorts from the bay area in their 4WD SUV's that lift the throttle in the middle of the turn as soon as their back end begins to lose traction instead of gently maintaining throttle. Sometimes these brainiacs even slam the brake mid-turn. Can you guess what happens? I'd say in the real snowy world knowing how to drive > awd.
Haha - I lived in vermont for 6 years, I had an SVT focus through most of it, every day on I-89 there were a myriad of "flat landers" in the median with their SUV's

but but but 4wheel drive?!?!?
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Old 02-07-2013, 06:51 PM   #33
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You're comparing drivetrain to tires? Why can't I put winter tires on the AWD car too?
How about having sex... WHILE boosting cars?

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Old 02-07-2013, 10:37 PM   #34
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I prefer R-Compound tires with RWD when it's going to snow. This way I know I won't be going anywhere so I stay home.
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:46 PM   #35
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I prefer R-Compound tires with RWD when it's going to snow. This way I know I won't be going anywhere so I stay home.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:48 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by 53x12 View Post
Doesn't AWD help with two of those, acceleration and handling (lateral) as it can transfer power from front to back and side to side depending on which side has traction? Unless I am missing something.
Except most AWD cars are understeering pigs that heavily favor the front wheels. With a RWD car the fronts are free to only steer and brake. If any understeer occurs in slippery conditions it can be easily reeled in. With an AWD car you have to point it in the direction you want to go and goose it. This is not a wise thing to do on public streets.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:19 AM   #37
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awd with decent all seasons all day (continental dws)
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:26 AM   #38
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awd with decent all seasons all day (continental dws)
THIS is the kind of thinking that ends up slowing my commute twice a week thanks to an accident or 4.
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:46 AM   #39
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How about having sex... WHILE boosting cars?

I WILL DO ANYTHING ANGELINA JOLIE TELLS ME TO DO!!!!
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:53 AM   #40
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awd with decent all seasons all day (continental dws)
My '08 STI was horrible in the snow with all-seasons compared to my 2.5RS with snows.. just terrible.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:42 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by skywaffles View Post
Except most AWD cars are understeering pigs that heavily favor the front wheels. With a RWD car the fronts are free to only steer and brake. If any understeer occurs in slippery conditions it can be easily reeled in. With an AWD car you have to point it in the direction you want to go and goose it. This is not a wise thing to do on public streets.
Understeer with AWD in the snow can be easily corrected by adjusting and making smooth inputs (throttling and braking). You don't need to "goose" the throttle to get out of an understeering condition. Plus the awd systems have the capability to transfer power to the rear to assist this.

With RWD in the snow, you have the issue of oversteer, to which most drivers don't know how to properly correct.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:47 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by bestfromnw View Post
awd with decent all seasons all day (continental dws)
While Conti DWS are an excellent tire and are good for the occasional light snow, there is no substitute for a good snow tire. Snow tires not only offer obviously snow traction, they offer superior cold weather traction.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:50 AM   #43
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My STI is a billion times better with all-seasons than my RX8 was with snows. I had to putter along in the rain at stop lights if it was within 5 degrees of freezing. Wranglers had to wait for me to pick up speed.

I don’t' really care that much if it takes me an extra 10 feet to stop, you allow for that in your speed. What I want to make sure is that I can climb the snow covered hill and not get stuck on my way home from work.

Would snows be better? Sure but I don't want to budget another $1-2k for extra rims and tires and place to store them. If I was going to auto X or track my car then sure I'd budget appropriately. It depends on where you live, we have hardly gotten any measureable snow in MD this year and none that I can recall last year.

How does the winter tire compare to a performance all-season on cold, dry pavement or cold, wet pavement? Are you sacrificing stopping and handling in the wintertime when there is no snow on the road with a winter tire?
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:58 AM   #44
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Understeer with AWD in the snow can be easily corrected by adjusting and making smooth inputs (throttling and braking). You don't need to "goose" the throttle to get out of an understeering condition. Plus the awd systems have the capability to transfer power to the rear to assist this.

With RWD in the snow, you have the issue of oversteer, to which most drivers don't know how to properly correct.
How did we ever get into an argument about whether AWD is better than any form of 2WD in snow? Anybody who thinks AWD isn't superior in those conditions is either 1) rationalizing their decision to buy a F/RWD car, or 2) completely inexperienced in snow, or AWD, or something.

I've had cars of every flavor, and driven every one of them in the snow, and there's just no contest. I can make any of them work as long as they have decent tires, but AWD makes it nearly effortless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by subyski View Post
While Conti DWS are an excellent tire and are good for the occasional light snow, there is no substitute for a good snow tire. Snow tires not only offer obviously snow traction, they offer superior cold weather traction.
^^ this

I've driven in snow & ice with all-seasons (Pirelli PZero Nero M+S) up hills that were only possible because AWD made up for the deficiencies of the tire. All season tires are okay in mild areas that see very little snow, but the gap between all-seasons and snow tires is about as large as the gap between summer tires and all-seasons.

Tangent: I've driven RE070s in 15* weather on bone dry roads and they were actually just fine as long as you drove like an average person . Don't get them anywhere near moisture, though (at any temperature ).
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Old 02-09-2013, 01:54 PM   #45
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SNOW tires are more dangerous in the winter. They break loose all the way thru 2nd gear and into 3rd in the dry.

BAN snow tires.




Dont drive like a dick head and all your weather related problems are solved.
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Old 02-09-2013, 01:57 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by subyski View Post
While Conti DWS are an excellent tire and are good for the occasional light snow, there is no substitute for a good snow tire. Snow tires not only offer obviously snow traction, they offer superior cold weather traction.
This I sort of disagree with. You need a skinnier tire to work better in the snow but that offers less grip in the dry. This only really comes apparent with higher HP cars but its still a valid point.


I have 285 summer tires and 245 winter tires. The winter tires have less grip than summer tires in any temp. The key is that if i encounter snow or any sort of moisture I can get around.
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Old 02-09-2013, 02:49 PM   #47
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The winter tires have less grip than summer tires in any temp.
I'd be astonished if this were actually true in, say, 25 degree weather. Summer tires don't like the cold. True story.
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Old 02-09-2013, 03:21 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by hkerekes View Post
This I sort of disagree with. You need a skinnier tire to work better in the snow but that offers less grip in the dry. This only really comes apparent with higher HP cars but its still a valid point.


I have 285 summer tires and 245 winter tires. The winter tires have less grip than summer tires in any temp. The key is that if i encounter snow or any sort of moisture I can get around.
Only because they're significantly narrower. Snow tires have MUCH more grip on cold pavement because their compound is softer. Summer tires turn into hockey pucks.
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Old 02-09-2013, 04:31 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by hkerekes View Post
The winter tires have less grip than summer tires in any temp.
WAT



Why are you comparing 285 to 245. Even then, if the temp goes sufficiently low, it is very likely the 285 summers will start to skid around like they're made out of granite.
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:32 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by hkerekes View Post
SNOW tires are more dangerous in the winter. They break loose all the way thru 2nd gear and into 3rd in the dry.

BAN snow tires.




Dont drive like a dick head and all your weather related problems are solved.
What are you talking about??? Snow tires more dangerous in the winter? That's a new one. Breaking traction in 2nd and 3rd gears? This sounds like bad driving habits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkerekes View Post
This I sort of disagree with. You need a skinnier tire to work better in the snow but that offers less grip in the dry. This only really comes apparent with higher HP cars but its still a valid point.
I am not sure what you are disagreeing with? Snow tires offer better snow and cold weather dry traction than all season/summer tires of the same size, no matter what car or truck you drive. It should not matter how much power your vehicle makes if the power is utilized properly. The only tire that may offer better deep snow traction would be T/A tires but those work in conjunction with heavier vehicles.

In any temperature below ~40F, snow tires are better because of the compound design they use keeps them pliable, regardless of snow or not. A similar reason why high performance all seasons and summer tires offer better traction in dry warm temperatures. The compound is designed for superior traction and durability at higher temperatures but get rock hard in cold temperatures.

True, skinnier tires are better for deep snow traction but that is really not the discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkerekes View Post
The winter tires have less grip than summer tires in any temp.
This logic is wrong, period. Please see above.

Last edited by subyski; 02-10-2013 at 12:08 AM.
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