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Old 02-03-2013, 01:27 AM   #1
WhatTurboLag?
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Default Closed deck vs closed deck sleeved vs semi closed deck sleeved vs semi closed pinned.

As the title says what would be the best and most reliable for a high (500+whp) hp build?

I can't decide what I want to go with weather it be a 2.5 long rod (+4 rods and sleeved back to a 2.5) pinned and sleeved

Or possibly a ej22 block. Sleeved if its a good idea. Also has piston oil squirters.
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:06 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatTurboLag? View Post
As the title says what would be the best and most reliable for a high (500+whp) hp build?

I can't decide what I want to go with weather it be a 2.5 long rod (+4 rods and sleeved back to a 2.5) pinned and sleeved

Or possibly a ej22 block. Sleeved if its a good idea. Also has piston oil squirters.
Do you want to rev higher and go faster or go faster with in the stock rev band? How do you drive your car? What will you be using it for after the engine rebuild or new complete build?
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Old 02-03-2013, 05:23 AM   #3
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I would like to road race it. But realistically just a street car. I would like a nice wide powerband where it starts doesn't always bother me. The long rods seem to be the most reliable and allow me to rev higher. Knowing I can rev out to 9k if I want to is really nice.

I just care so much about building it once and the right way I want to know what is perfect.
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Old 02-03-2013, 07:22 AM   #4
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This car was built with parts off the shelf. Standard length rods, factory 2.5L crank, stock sleeve block, stock valves, gcs s2 cams, upgraded valve springs, crower I-beams, JE pistons, my DD Ports on the heads, shimmed oil pump, oil cooler, etc. 600whp+ & 9000rpms with long gears. 9sec street car. It's actually scary fast because torque steer can happen in the first 3 gears.

You probably seen this video in my gearing thread.
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Old 02-03-2013, 11:04 AM   #5
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Sweet Build !! Have you tore one down with this setup and looked at the bearings ? I'm just curious as to how crank flex effects the bearings with your setup. Also would like to know if a closed deck block would have less crank flex than an open one ?
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Old 02-03-2013, 11:22 AM   #6
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The closed deck is just the upper part of the cylinders. The bottom is still very much alike.
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Old 02-03-2013, 05:20 PM   #7
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The closed deck is just the upper part of the cylinders. The bottom is still very much alike.
I've always wonder if the top half would play a role in strengthening the crank, thanks for your input.
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Old 02-03-2013, 05:24 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by FuJi K View Post
This car was built with parts off the shelf. Standard length rods, factory 2.5L crank, stock sleeve block, stock valves, gcs s2 cams, upgraded valve springs, crower I-beams, JE pistons, my DD Ports on the heads, shimmed oil pump, oil cooler, etc. 600whp+ & 9000rpms with long gears. 9sec street car. It's actually scary fast because torque steer can happen in the first 3 gears.

You probably seen this video in my gearing thread.
Spec B ratios - YouTube
man that gets goin really good what turbo are you runing on it? for 272s it dosent seem to fall over up top ey
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Old 02-03-2013, 05:37 PM   #9
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The 9 second street car thing is all well and good, but how long will a stock sleeve block last at 600wheel? Taking the car down the track 10 seconds or less is hard, but is it as hard in a motor as say a 5th gear highway pull? Serious question, not being a nasioc a-hole.

To me it it seems like the high gear pulls would be much harder on a block. This is the problem I'm having currently. I see all these crazy fast cars on the track with stock sleeves, but don't hear too much about cars like this having a long life expectancy on the street.
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Old 02-03-2013, 07:22 PM   #10
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on the street or in a 1 or half mile race.

and I don't see myself drag racing the car more than once or twice to just see what it can do.
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Old 02-03-2013, 07:51 PM   #11
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what would be the best and most reliable for a high (500+whp) hp build?
Closed deck sleeved. +4 mm long rods a plus.
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:19 PM   #12
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can I even run +4 rods on a EJ22 block? I don't know much about the ej22 stuff.
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:22 PM   #13
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Do you know who will be building your motor yet?
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:34 PM   #14
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As i said on other thread,EJ22T with right parts I would choose

Many people over here running high 600hp(few of them running 700-800bhp) on their EJ22T(2.35L) without the issue,some cars are track only,some are drag cars and many of them are daily used

We are personally went with EJ22T with standard length rods,custom RCM Omega pistons and 14mm headstuds conversion

Jura
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:02 PM   #15
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Do you know who will be building your motor yet?
Looking at maxwell, 3mi, tic, or maybe someone local. I don't want to bother them with calls until I'm closer to buying something.
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:27 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by lee586
man that gets goin really good what turbo are you runing on it? for 272s it dosent seem to fall over up top ey
PTE6766

How long will it last? Keep oil changes frequent, change plugs at the same time with oil, keep hoses tied tight, keep couplers checked, check for warped headers/flanges after a few months.

If you want to keep it going, gotta take it apart and clean stuff. Piston rings will wear out, bearings will start scuffing, air filters getting dirty etc.
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Old 02-04-2013, 12:17 AM   #17
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So question really hasn't been answered..?
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:52 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by FuJi K View Post
PTE6766

How long will it last? Keep oil changes frequent, change plugs at the same time with oil, keep hoses tied tight, keep couplers checked, check for warped headers/flanges after a few months.

If you want to keep it going, gotta take it apart and clean stuff. Piston rings will wear out, bearings will start scuffing, air filters getting dirty etc.
Does your bearing look like these ? From what I can tell when these motor reach HP numbers like you are talking about they get crank flex, bad.

What do you do if anything to combat this ?

Last edited by dnorton; 03-15-2013 at 08:09 AM.
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Old 02-04-2013, 11:36 AM   #19
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We have yet to experience that.
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Old 02-04-2013, 11:52 AM   #20
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Looking at maxwell, 3mi, tic, or maybe someone local. I don't want to bother them with calls until I'm closer to buying something.
Well those guys are all incredibly knowledgeable. They could give you an idea of what you would want. And probably a rough price estimate. Knowing roughly what your build will cost sooner rather than later is never a bad thing. Gives you a chance to set the finances up because you really don't want to seat of pant a project this big.

Make the call now. That way you aren't stuck in a big holding pattern waiting for stuff. At least that's what I would do. But I'm crazy so there's that

-Matt
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Old 02-04-2013, 03:03 PM   #21
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Closed deck sleeved. +4 mm long rods a plus.
A man after my own heart

I wouldn't normally suggest a destroked for a DD unless the person doesn't mind waiting through the lag period. With that being said, they do reduce friction loading from several area of the engine, largest being skirt/rings due to the reduced maximum crank/rod angle.

I can go on but most of this can be found in sticky threads and the 'official long rod discussion'. My posts are under Homemade WRX there.

Using OEM cases and how long they last almost seems to be luck of the draw. For big power, I feel safer sleeving. A sunk sleeve is less damaging than a cylinder wall failure.
Likewise, this entire season and last season with the Turn In Concepts team was done using the same stock cases...and we were waiting for the time bomb. At the same time, we never went over 32 psi and the rest of the engine is setup for the role. The sleeved 2.43L (4" destroked) never went in last season as we didn't want more power than the basic EJ25 until suspension and aero was further addressed. Lighting up 285 width C91 tires on command in 4th gear...well you see why we needed to get things under control before tossing 300 more hp at the car

-Micah
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:09 PM   #22
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Would a de stroker be laggy even with it sleeved back out to a 2.5/2.4 what ever it's called with a +4 rod and giant pistons lol.

Also, what's your opinion on the ej22t block options?



No matter what I'm sleeving at this point. And am doing at least turbo tuff rods if I end up not doing a LR motor.
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Old 02-05-2013, 03:53 PM   #23
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I was also thinking, to my knowledge out front can't close a sleeved block. Which would leave a ej25 block to only pinning with sleeving and you don't have oil squirters.

I feel like a sleeved and bored ej22 would be better especially since it has oil squirters.

But a long rod ej22 can only be a 2.3. I don't believe you can run large enough pistons for big displacement and long rods in them?
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Old 02-07-2013, 01:01 AM   #24
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2.5 destroke will still be laggier than the same displacement with the longer stroke/shorter rod ratio. You can see long explanations of why in the official destroker thread. I did a lot of sharing/posting in that thread as Homemade WRX.

Don't worry about the 'closed deck' over a semi closed if you're looking at a big bore sleeving.
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Old 02-07-2013, 03:28 AM   #25
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I was in the same situation on deciding what to do and I chose a simple setup. +2mm rods, 79mm stroke, ej25 darton sleeved case, off the shelf 2.6L stroker pistons.

I wanted it to be reliable and make good power (5-600whp). I also drive it on the street so I don't want to make it have any more lag. 276/272 cams combined with a 68lb/min turbo is already laggy with 2.5L of displacement. Destroking it to have even less displacement will make it so bad driving on the street. Going up a hill in 3rd gear @2000rpm is impossible in my car. I'll literally be slowing down... so I decided I didn't want to destroke the engine.

Even though I track the car a lot and like the benefit of going to a +4mm rod setup, I felt the faster spool, better off boost response, and torque of the 2.5L +2mm setup was much better for my purpose. It's not like I'll be revving 8k+ daily. Even on the road course I'll only spin it up to 8k+ a few times in the day.

With that in mind, add sleeves for reliability under high boost and the decision was made!

Edit: I also forgot I thought about doing a big bore sleeved block with +4mm rods and big pistons to bring it back out to a 2.5L but then I thought about how hard it would be to get a nice head gasket, replacement pistons would be hard to source compared to a 99.5mm you can buy any time you want, and if you ever wanted to bore the block again you're almost at the limit of the sleeves. At least with 99.5mm sleeves I can refresh the motor plenty of times with larger pistons if needed... sorry for the long run on sentence but it's late and i'm lazy
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