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Old 02-11-2013, 11:45 AM   #1
Quiksmith
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Subaru Stars Built Block High Oil Pressure

Hey Guys,
I have a newly built motor in my 06 STI. Just got her running last week and I am having irregularly high oil pressure. Before I get into the issue here is what I have equipped.

Internals:
CP Pistons
Manley Turbo Tuff I-beam Rods
OEM Bearings
OEM Nitrided Crank
BC 272 Cams
BC Springs/Retainers
Supertech +1mm Valves (with inconnel exhaust)

Turbo:
APS SR56

Oil Pump:
08+ 11mm Pump

My oil pressure gauge is a prosport evo which reads from a sensor in a sandwich adapter.

Cold Start: 100psi
Warm Idle: 42psi
Any Throttle: 90+ psi
3/4 Throttle: 100ish Psi

Now I can't do full throttle or high RPM currently due to my break in period but regardless we can see my Oil pressure is high. I have been told it is probably the 11mm pump and I should have used the 10mm pump cause I'm single AVCS and not dual. What should my path forward be? Am I in any danger due to this? Looking for helpful insight. Thanks!
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:54 AM   #2
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Also not sure if this is important but I have about 300 miles on the setup with virtually no oil consumption.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:11 PM   #3
kellygnsd
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What grade oil?

Just for comparison, on my new motor I get 90 psi on cold start and about 40 when warm. Pressure ramps up to max 90 something at around 3500 rpm and holds to redline. I'm not concerned as it is pretty steady at or near redline.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:12 PM   #4
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Currently running SAE 30. Amsoil Break-in Oil.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:15 PM   #5
the suicidal eggroll
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There is no reason to go with a higher flowing pump unless you actually need the flow. If you don't need the flow, it will just make things worse since you'll be bypassing and heating/aerating more oil.

Also, pressure does not depend on throttle, it depends on RPM. What is your pressure at various RPM (and what is your idle RPM) while hot (200F)?
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:16 PM   #6
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I have the P&L pump and Brad Penn 30 wt. break-in oil. You clearances may be on the tight side. Do you know what they set rod and main clearances too.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:32 PM   #7
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Subaru Stars

Quote:
Originally Posted by the suicidal eggroll View Post
There is no reason to go with a higher flowing pump unless you actually need the flow. If you don't need the flow, it will just make things worse since you'll be bypassing and heating/aerating more oil.

Also, pressure does not depend on throttle, it depends on RPM. What is your pressure at various RPM (and what is your idle RPM) while hot (200F)?

Right, I know this now, although I will say my Oil temps are incredible since after the rebuild. 200 F is max I have seen. I used to get 215 pretty regularly.

As far as RPM I havent seen past 5k RPMs yet but it seems to hit about 100 psi and hold after 3.5k-4k RPMs. Just crusing in any gear gets me 90+ PSI at 2.5k-3k RPM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post
I have the P&L pump and Brad Penn 30 wt. break-in oil. You clearances may be on the tight side. Do you know what they set rod and main clearances too.
This is a S+R Performance Stage 2+ Closed Deck Block. Main and Rod were set to factory clearances. To be honest I dont have the build sheet from S+R Performance but when talking to them they had set them to factory specs. I can Call and verify this morning though.
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:08 PM   #8
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#1 you need to put a good quality mechanical gauge on it to compare #'s,my experience is that the prosport gauges are not as accurate as say defi gauges.By subaru's chart the 11mm oil pump should only go to 78 psi then bypass oil pretty much regardless of clearances.

Last edited by john 1badSTI; 02-15-2013 at 10:19 PM.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:10 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiksmith View Post
Right, I know this now, although I will say my Oil temps are incredible since after the rebuild. 200 F is max I have seen. I used to get 215 pretty regularly.
I'd take the 215F oil temps ever the 200F temp. You can run your oil to cold also. Do you have an external oil cooler? I've heard that optimum oil temp is 230-240F.
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Old 02-11-2013, 06:46 PM   #10
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Go back to a 10mm pump. The 11mm pushes ~36% more flow and unless the engine was built specifically for that you're pushing it into a wall... The bypass is made to flow x amount of oil based on the pump that is suposed to be based on the engine. So, an 11mm pump can cause pressure spikes leading to seal failures. In addition to adding excessive heat into the oil from continuously recirculating significant flow through the bypass all the time, but that's not the worst. Worse case you bypass a LOT and because the flow characteristics through the bypas are so terrible, you aerate the oil, which means aerated oil gets pumped into the bearings and air definitely does not lubricate as well as oil.

Also, for reference the 10mm pump flows less but at a higher 85psi and the 11mm flows more, but at a lower 78psi.



Edit: Don't even think about the JDM 12mm It's made for the Spec-C/WRC engines that have MUCH better crank rod oiling (and other bits) and 8K RPM rev limit from the factory.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:05 AM   #11
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I have been running that same pressure on a built motor for 3 years with "no" problems.This is a maxwell motor with a 11mm pump; ZERO oil use between changes. I use amsoil racing oil; 15-50 summer/5-30 winter.Oil temp has never gone past 220.I have a killer-B pan and pick-up.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:16 AM   #12
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^ As you shouldn't because Dom knows what he's doing

You likely have increased bearing clearances to promote better oil flow. I know some builders will even tweak the oil passages in the bearings too.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:58 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
Go back to a 10mm pump. The 11mm pushes ~36% more flow and unless the engine was built specifically for that you're pushing it into a wall... The bypass is made to flow x amount of oil based on the pump that is suposed to be based on the engine. So, an 11mm pump can cause pressure spikes leading to seal failures. In addition to adding excessive heat into the oil from continuously recirculating significant flow through the bypass all the time, but that's not the worst. Worse case you bypass a LOT and because the flow characteristics through the bypas are so terrible, you aerate the oil, which means aerated oil gets pumped into the bearings and air definitely does not lubricate as well as oil.
Excellent Information! Thanks! Seems I made a costly mistake . Will talk to my tuner about getting this switched before the tune (Ughhhh Timing belt again....).

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver-duck View Post
I have been running that same pressure on a built motor for 3 years with "no" problems.This is a maxwell motor with a 11mm pump; ZERO oil use between changes. I use amsoil racing oil; 15-50 summer/5-30 winter.Oil temp has never gone past 220.I have a killer-B pan and pick-up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
^ As you shouldn't because Dom knows what he's doing

You likely have increased bearing clearances to promote better oil flow. I know some builders will even tweak the oil passages in the bearings too.
Interesting but Dom has voiced his dislike of the 11mm pump to me if I don't need it. Like killerB said I figure he designed your clearances/passages to accept more flow. Your profile says 06, Is that an 06 STi with single AVCS?

Now another question, will I be probably ok for my tune (in two weeks) or is this a need to change now thing? I know its kinda an open ended question with many variables just trying to figure out if I need to push my tune out (which will be a pita) to accomadate this or get the tune done and swap pumps soon after that. I can probably snag one of MPS's modified 10mm pumps while I'm up there getting tuned. Thanks again for your guy's input.
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:06 PM   #14
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Alright having my redline raised to 7k to see what the oil pressure does. If it drops and gets off the relief valve then I'm probably ok for the tune. If not I have alot of work cut out for this weekend haha.
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:42 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiksmith View Post
Alright having my redline raised to 7k to see what the oil pressure does. If it drops and gets off the relief valve then I'm probably ok for the tune. If not I have alot of work cut out for this weekend haha.
What?

If it drops of the relief it probably means the pump is cavitating which is bad. You don't want a drop in pressure at high rpm. Pressure should flatline and maintain.
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:52 PM   #16
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You need to hook an external gauge before you start doing anything. Was your pump shimmed over stock? As stated above. Prosport gauges are cheap and inaccurate.
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:48 PM   #17
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These oil pressures seem fine to me.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:00 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyrosyrus View Post
You need to hook an external gauge before you start doing anything. Was your pump shimmed over stock? As stated above. Prosport gauges are cheap and inaccurate.
His pressures are reading right in line with what my defi gauges are showing. I have the same oil pump on my new motor.

Shane, are you swapping this thing out this weekend? I think I am going to keep mine.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:48 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiksmith View Post
Now another question, will I be probably ok for my tune (in two weeks) or is this a need to change now thing?
Depends on how you like to gamble. I've seen cars go on the dyno with pressure issues knowing a scheduled rebuild was right around the corner anyway. If it were something you wanted longevity out of, I'd consider the change. The dyno, depending on how the loading is, may put more stress on the car than what it would ever see on the street.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiksmith View Post
Alright having my redline raised to 7k to see what the oil pressure does. If it drops and gets off the relief valve then I'm probably ok for the tune. If not I have alot of work cut out for this weekend haha.
This is not a good way to troubleshoot oiling problems Not only that, pressure drops can be fast and possibly difficult to actually see on a gauge (unless it's really bad). Datalogging the oil pressure is the only way to know for certain exactly what's going on when and where.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post
What?

If it drops of the relief it probably means the pump is cavitating which is bad. You don't want a drop in pressure at high rpm. Pressure should flatline and maintain.
More a picky symmantic, but none of the EJ pumps cavitate. This is one of the benefits to a positive displacement pump and why they are common on superbikes to 16K+RPMs. On Subies I've not seen actual cavitation, at least to 10K RPMs. What causes aeration of the oil is the bypass. The flow characteristics of the bypass is terrible! It aerates the oil and supplies it right to the pump's input. The more you bypass the worse it will be, which is why I'm always spreading the 'bigger is not better' statements.


Back to the OP's pressures. Looking at the chart and the pressures you're seeing, you definitely are bypassing a lot (assuming your guage is near accurate). The bypass typically regulates near the stated pressure until the bypass starts to become overwhelmed and the bypass spring gets squished more and more. At this point it's no longer regulating at the intended pressure, it's acting more as a pressure relief.

IMO, running excessive presssure/flow can be as risky as low pressure.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:47 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post

Depends on how you like to gamble. I've seen cars go on the dyno with pressure issues knowing a scheduled rebuild was right around the corner anyway. If it were something you wanted longevity out of, I'd consider the change. The dyno, depending on how the loading is, may put more stress on the car than what it would ever see on the street.

This is not a good way to troubleshoot oiling problems Not only that, pressure drops can be fast and possibly difficult to actually see on a gauge (unless it's really bad). Datalogging the oil pressure is the only way to know for certain exactly what's going on when and where.

More a picky symmantic, but none of the EJ pumps cavitate. This is one of the benefits to a positive displacement pump and why they are common on superbikes to 16K+RPMs. On Subies I've not seen actual cavitation, at least to 10K RPMs. What causes aeration of the oil is the bypass. The flow characteristics of the bypass is terrible! It aerates the oil and supplies it right to the pump's input. The more you bypass the worse it will be, which is why I'm always spreading the 'bigger is not better' statements.

Back to the OP's pressures. Looking at the chart and the pressures you're seeing, you definitely are bypassing a lot (assuming your guage is near accurate). The bypass typically regulates near the stated pressure until the bypass starts to become overwhelmed and the bypass spring gets squished more and more. At this point it's no longer regulating at the intended pressure, it's acting more as a pressure relief.

IMO, running excessive presssure/flow can be as risky as low pressure.
And that folks - is what we call knocking it out of the park!!
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:50 AM   #21
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Ok ended up snagging a 10mm pump. I will be installing it this weekend (Not excited about it haha). Thanks again everyone for your invaluable input.
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Old 02-14-2013, 12:29 PM   #22
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I thought those numbers are fine for oil pressure.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:55 PM   #23
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im running a 11 mm pump on a built 2.0 ,my pressures are 73 psi when warm ,24 psi warm idle. , cold start idle is 95 psi ,over 100 if you rev it to 2500 while cold . my block was used and i needed +.001 bearings to get in oem specs ,using a 2005 crank so it is cross drilled .motor is running great 10-30 valvoline sny.
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:53 AM   #24
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Sounds about perfect ^ Well executed! Sooks like the required flow is matched well to the pump as you're seeing pressures right at/below the opening pressure for the bypass. This is what we shoot for!
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:37 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
More a picky symmantic, but none of the EJ pumps cavitate. This is one of the benefits to a positive displacement pump and why they are common on superbikes to 16K+RPMs. On Subies I've not seen actual cavitation, at least to 10K RPMs. What causes aeration of the oil is the bypass. The flow characteristics of the bypass is terrible! It aerates the oil and supplies it right to the pump's input. The more you bypass the worse it will be, which is why I'm always spreading the 'bigger is not better' statements.

Back to the OP's pressures. Looking at the chart and the pressures you're seeing, you definitely are bypassing a lot (assuming your guage is near accurate). The bypass typically regulates near the stated pressure until the bypass starts to become overwhelmed and the bypass spring gets squished more and more. At this point it's no longer regulating at the intended pressure, it's acting more as a pressure relief.

IMO, running excessive presssure/flow can be as risky as low pressure.
Forgive my noobness, but I am a bit confused by this. So you are saying that none of the EJ oil pumps cavitate. And by that I assume you are refering to the 10mm, 11mm, and 12mm pumps. And that it is the bypass that aerates the oil.

If I understand the purpose of the bypass valve, it is there to open up when oil pressure gets too high and allows the oil to go around the pump itself to relieve the bottleneck. But in the case above, the oil pressure is way above where the bypass should be open, at least according the above chart. So wouldn't that indicate that either the bypass is insufficient, or that something else is going on?

And in regards to aeration, if you do have aerated oil, wouldn't you expect to see pressure drop, not increase?
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