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Old 02-15-2013, 03:00 PM   #26
KillerBMotorsport
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scubynubie View Post
Forgive my noobness, but I am a bit confused by this. So you are saying that none of the EJ oil pumps cavitate. And by that I assume you are refering to the 10mm, 11mm, and 12mm pumps. And that it is the bypass that aerates the oil.
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scubynubie View Post

If I understand the purpose of the bypass valve, it is there to open up when oil pressure gets too high and allows the oil to go around the pump itself to relieve the bottleneck. But in the case above, the oil pressure is way above where the bypass should be open, at least according the above chart. So wouldn't that indicate that either the bypass is insufficient, or that something else is going on?
You're close... The bypass open to let oil bypass the engine. Think of the engine as a big flow restriction. Ideally you're pushing as close to the bypass point as possible. Once the pump pushes more than the engine can take, excessive pressure builds and is bled off. The oil that is bled off is directed right into the inlet of the pump, so it goes around and around and around (in theory). As the oil is compressed over and over it also adds heat. The bypass opens ~'X' presssure, but it is a spring, so if you are REALLY flowing a lot through it, that spring has been compressed past the 'X' pressure that it took to crack it open.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scubynubie View Post


And in regards to aeration, if you do have aerated oil, wouldn't you expect to see pressure drop, not increase?
Yes, but keep in mind the pressure drop from aeration happens very fast and the bypass does it's job by closing when the pressure does drop. This can be seen much easier when datalogging oil pressure, but is not really gauge noticable until north of ~8K RPMs. So where there is aerated oil passing through the engine it happens as slugs of air passing through, not a sudden catastrophic failure. Longevity, spun bearings and other generally bad things are the outcome, especially on an engine that requires pressure at an astromonical .9 quarts per second at the factory redline!
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:58 PM   #27
jtrakel
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Quick question since I'm having some oiling "worries" as well. Currently i'm on the opposite side of the street dealing with low pressures. I have a stock 10mm pump at cold idle I see 60-70psi, warm idle 1k 15-20psi and 3k and above 65-80psi. I have a 11mm oil pump ready to throw in because my numbers do not seem right I've ran some 5w30 and pressures where a tad bit lower. Currently using some 20w50 to keep pressure's higher I just completed my break-in miles so I want to swap or see if this is ok before I hit the dyno next week. motor specs to follow

Darton sleeved EJ257 bored to 100.5mm
CP 100.5mm pistons
Manley Trubo Tuff "I" beams
OEM forged heat treated crank
Clevit main and rod bearings
A1 Technologies H11 Head Studs
Fluidampr crank pully
GSC S2's 272 cams
GSC behive springs and retainers
OEM intake and exhaust valves
10mm Sti oil pump
Killer B oil pickup
Killer B oil windage tray
killer B oil pan
Balanced rotating assembly
Rotated STI manifold with A/C delete
Gates racing timing belt and water pump
Turbo XS FMIC
TGV deletes
Mishimoto race radiator
Mishimoto 170 degree thermostat
Aeromotive fuel rails with custom steel braided lines all -6 AN fittings
FIC 2150cc top feed High-z injectors
Walbro E85 400lph in tank pump
AEM fuel pressure regulator
Garrett GTX3582 w/ TIAL .82ar exhaust housing
TIAL 38mm EWG dumping to atmosphere
V-band rotated up-pipe
V-band rotated down-pipe
HKS titanium axle back
Race Ready electronic exhaust cutout welded into down-pipe
Crawford V2 AOS
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:10 PM   #28
the suicidal eggroll
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtrakel View Post
Quick question since I'm having some oiling "worries" as well. Currently i'm on the opposite side of the street dealing with low pressures. I have a stock 10mm pump at cold idle I see 60-70psi, warm idle 1k 15-20psi and 3k and above 65-80psi. I have a 11mm oil pump ready to throw in because my numbers do not seem right I've ran some 5w30 and pressures where a tad bit lower. Currently using some 20w50 to keep pressure's higher I just completed my break-in miles so I want to swap or see if this is ok before I hit the dyno next week. motor specs to follow
I don't see anything in your mod list that would lower the oil pressure. What is your main and rod bearing clearance? Do you have an external oil cooler? Where is your oil pressure sensor located?
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:22 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by the suicidal eggroll View Post

I don't see anything in your mod list that would lower the oil pressure. What is your main and rod bearing clearance? Do you have an external oil cooler? Where is your oil pressure sensor located?
Let me get back to you on clearances I have to go find them. I do not have a external oil cooler and I apologize I should have said my sensor (defi guages) is currently located right on top of the oil pump. Right behind the alternator if it was in its stock location.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:31 PM   #30
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^^^Your oil pressure is ok,I will bet your clearances are a little looser than usual which is not necessarily a bad thing.My oil pressure is about identical to yours and have seen 8600 and 30 psi with no problems.Like I have said before flow is more important than pressure.btw I have always ran 10mm modded pumps on all my builds.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:38 PM   #31
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Rods 0.002 mains 0.0015
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:41 PM   #32
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like I said you're ok and I think your mains may be a little looser than that,probably closer to .002.My rods are at .0022 and mains at .002.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:52 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by john 1badSTI View Post
like I said you're ok and I think your mains may be a little looser than that,probably closer to .002.My rods are at .0022 and mains at .002.
Wow John you usually set your mains that loose always??
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:53 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by jtrakel View Post
Rods 0.002 mains 0.0015
Honestly your pressures aren't crazy or wrong. Just make sure it's holding oil pressure as rpm go up.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:58 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
Sounds about perfect ^ Well executed! Sooks like the required flow is matched well to the pump as you're seeing pressures right at/below the opening pressure for the bypass. This is what we shoot for!
Thanks, good to know ,i learned alot on the build ...had to do it twice im sure it turned out this way because i had a used block ,new crank (2005) and sti rods. to get the tight main bearing clearance these beasties need i used the cosworth +.001 main bearings. my mains ended up at .0012 and one was .0014 .my pressure gauge is in the aft galley plug on top of the block.
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:02 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtrakel View Post
Quick question since I'm having some oiling "worries" as well. Currently i'm on the opposite side of the street dealing with low pressures. I have a stock 10mm pump at cold idle I see 60-70psi, warm idle 1k 15-20psi and 3k and above 65-80psi. I have a 11mm oil pump ready to throw in because my numbers do not seem right I've ran some 5w30 and pressures where a tad bit lower. Currently using some 20w50 to keep pressure's higher I just completed my break-in miles so I want to swap or see if this is ok before I hit the dyno next week. motor specs to follow

Darton sleeved EJ257 bored to 100.5mm
CP 100.5mm pistons
Manley Trubo Tuff "I" beams
OEM forged heat treated crank
Clevit main and rod bearings
A1 Technologies H11 Head Studs
Fluidampr crank pully
GSC S2's 272 cams
GSC behive springs and retainers
OEM intake and exhaust valves
10mm Sti oil pump
Killer B oil pickup
Killer B oil windage tray
killer B oil pan
Balanced rotating assembly
Rotated STI manifold with A/C delete
Gates racing timing belt and water pump
Turbo XS FMIC
TGV deletes
Mishimoto race radiator
Mishimoto 170 degree thermostat
Aeromotive fuel rails with custom steel braided lines all -6 AN fittings
FIC 2150cc top feed High-z injectors
Walbro E85 400lph in tank pump
AEM fuel pressure regulator
Garrett GTX3582 w/ TIAL .82ar exhaust housing
TIAL 38mm EWG dumping to atmosphere
V-band rotated up-pipe
V-band rotated down-pipe
HKS titanium axle back
Race Ready electronic exhaust cutout welded into down-pipe
Crawford V2 AOS
^ This looks good to me
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Old 02-16-2013, 05:52 PM   #37
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So killerbee in your opinion high oil pressures are an issue because of the bypass valve flow characteristics. If you increase the bypass pressure would you see an issue with higher pressure then?
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Old 02-16-2013, 07:21 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stretchedk7 View Post
Wow John you usually set your mains that loose always??
Was going ask the same question. You dont see people set them looser than .0015 usually...well you dont see people post about it but makes sense to me for a race motor
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Old 02-16-2013, 08:44 PM   #39
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Is there actual proof that these larger pumps 11mm+ and higher pressures are actually causing aeration issues and/or damage to the engines?
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Old 02-16-2013, 09:17 PM   #40
john 1badSTI
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Originally Posted by stretchedk7 View Post
Wow John you usually set your mains that loose always??
not always just opened them up a little to try something different in my personal engine.
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Old 02-16-2013, 10:45 PM   #41
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what do you think about it so far? have you taken one apart at that spec to see what the mains look like yet?
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Old 02-16-2013, 10:46 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Paul View Post
Was going ask the same question. You dont see people set them looser than .0015 usually...well you dont see people post about it but makes sense to me for a race motor


i try for .0015 but .0013-.0016 id run it
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Old 02-17-2013, 01:56 AM   #43
wrx1392
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i agree .002 is a bit loose for mains.....if your driving on the street .it seems the tighter the better on these engines....the factory spec say .0016 is the limit.but for race stuff might be ok for drag,but track and rally ...??? 50-60 wt oil maybe
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Old 02-17-2013, 02:03 AM   #44
stretchedk7
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i was just asking. i know john builds a very good engine i just wondered why he was going so loose thats all.
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Old 02-17-2013, 02:44 AM   #45
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untill i built one of these motors i would have believed that .002 would be good ,these bearing are small for the amount of power 2.0 2.5 liters can make.
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Old 02-17-2013, 10:29 AM   #46
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What would be acceptable oil pressure levels for the 10mm pump?

I just took my car for a short drive and it was in the 90s for most of the time. It idled at like 50~60psi. It was 100psi for the cold start also. It was a short drive(though the motor did get up to temp) and I'll monitor it on my next long drive.

Also, I have a DEFI oil pressure gauge so I don't think it's reading the oil pressure wrong. Can the AP monitor oil pressure? I didn't see it as an option in the data log.

Here are the block details:

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Engine

-Innovative Tuning Stage 2+ Short Block*
-Spearco TMIC
-ATP GT3076R
-Invidia Catless Downpipe
-4 Bar MAP Sensor
-ARP Cylinder Head Studs
-Kelford 272 Cams
-IAG Modified Dual AVCS Manifolds (fixes the improperly drilled cams..)
-Crawford AOS/Breather System
-Innovative Tuning Turbo Blanket
-Innovative Tuning Oil Cooler Kit W/Sandwich Plate
-Innovative Tuning Custom Fuel Line Setup
-Agency Power Hard Turbo Inlet
-44mm V-Band Clamp/Block off Plate
-KS Tech MegaMAF 83mm Big MAF Intake
-KS Tech Air Pump Block Plates/Gaskets
-Samco Intercooler Couplers/Elbow
-Custom Speed Density Tune By Mike@Innovative
-Cobb AccessPort
-GrimmSpeed Coated EWG Up Pipe
-GrimmSpeed EBCS
-Tial 38mm Wastegate (Red)
-Aeromotive Fuel Pressure Regulation System
-Invidia Race Catback
-Subtle Solutions Alternator Shroud
-Subtle Solutions Radiator Shroud

***Block Specs***(What goes into the Innovative Stage 2+ Block)

-Manley pistons and I beam rods
-ACL race bearings
-Brand new OEM sti block and crankshaft (08+ block halves with nitrided crankshaft)
-Spin balance crank
-Weight match pistons
-Match rod big/small ends
-Blueprint engine assembly
-File fit rings
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Old 02-17-2013, 10:33 AM   #47
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These oil pressures seem fine to me.
this. my built motor does 100psi at start up, 70-85 warm cruising, 25ish idling
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Old 02-17-2013, 12:31 PM   #48
john 1badSTI
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Originally Posted by stretchedk7 View Post
i was just asking. i know john builds a very good engine i just wondered why he was going so loose thats all.
I will tear it down at the end of this season,at first I was a little nervous with the idle pressure at 15-20 psi hot at 1000 rpm but then did some research and the nissan vq built motors run that much oil pressure.Also the guy who does my machine work builds 2000+hp street outlaw motors for a few of the nmca guys and convinced me that flow is way more important than pressure.Remember pressure as in boost or anything else is a measurement of resistance and too much resistance can be a bad thing.
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Old 02-17-2013, 12:48 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by wrx1392 View Post
untill i built one of these motors i would have believed that .002 would be good ,these bearing are small for the amount of power 2.0 2.5 liters can make.

yeah wonder if having a much wider bearing would help with all the bearing issues
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Old 02-17-2013, 12:49 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by john 1badSTI View Post
I will tear it down at the end of this season,at first I was a little nervous with the idle pressure at 15-20 psi hot at 1000 rpm but then did some research and the nissan vq built motors run that much oil pressure.Also the guy who does my machine work builds 2000+hp street outlaw motors for a few of the nmca guys and convinced me that flow is way more important than pressure.Remember pressure as in boost or anything else is a measurement of resistance and too much resistance can be a bad thing.
im all about new tricks was just wondering how it worked. that way if my clearances sway towards the big side i wont worry so much anymore
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