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Old 02-12-2013, 10:54 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWP n Gold View Post
2017 Supra. Must. double. my. salary.
Yeah. Entry price ~$55-60k?
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:00 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by 53x12 View Post
Yeah. Entry price ~$55-60k?
I would imagine at least that.
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:11 PM   #28
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I call BS on this one. Besides, BMW does not do v6.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:17 PM   #29
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I call BS on this one. Besides, BMW does not do v6.
Many think the 2014 M3 is getting a Twin Turbo V6
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:23 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by mhoward1 View Post
Many think the 2014 M3 is getting a Twin Turbo V6
It's an inline 6. Turbocharged of course.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:26 PM   #31
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Isn't it a tri-turbo setup?
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:32 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by mhoward1 View Post

Many think the 2014 M3 is getting a Twin Turbo V6
It's already been confirmed that the F30 M3 is using a turbo (twin, tri?) inline 6. BMW has no problems packaging it's superior inline 6's, why would they spend $$$ to engineer an inferior V6?
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:52 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Godmal View Post
why would they spend $$$ to engineer an inferior V6?
The same reason Mercedes Benz ditched all of their I6s for V6s a decade ago.. a greater safety margin in frontal impacts.

Hopefully BMW doesn't fall into the same trap.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:56 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Len View Post
I also cannot believe the BRZ platform, which is a modified Impreza platform, would be suitable for a luxury GT like the Z4.


Is the Toyota/Subaru platform not capable of supporting added sound deadening and leather?

Maybe BMW wants something smaller than their current platform.

If the chassis is stiff, and relatively adaptable (which is apparently is), there's absolutely no reason why you couldn't use it as the basis as a small luxury GT. You're talking about suspension tuning, appointments, etc. That's all independent of the underlying chassis. BMW already uses struts up front. There no reason why it wouldn't be "suitable"...whatever you meant by that.

Last edited by SoapBox; 02-12-2013 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:02 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godmal View Post
It's already been confirmed that the F30 M3 is using a turbo (twin, tri?) inline 6. BMW has no problems packaging it's superior inline 6's, why would they spend $$$ to engineer an inferior V6?
OK, I had just remembered reading this:

Quote:
“The new V6 will be the first to mount its two twin-scroll turbochargers within the vee-angle, mirroring the company’s 4.4-liter V8 design. The This unique-to-BMW approach reduces the length of the inlet tract compared with a regular turbo-vee setup, helping to sharpen throttle response and minimizing heat buildup after air passes through the intercooler.”
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:10 PM   #36
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Germans and Japanese working together. Last time this worked out it was world war 2.
Ha ha ha
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:14 PM   #37
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There no reason why it wouldn't be "suitable"...whatever you meant by that.
Other than the fact that this would be the equivalent of what the american car companies used to do with rebadging crap and selling for WAY more than the cost for such things, which ultimately leads to less credibility for the company IMO.

I would never buy a rebadged toyota for bmw price unless it looked drastically different on the outside and inside and had drastically different performance numbers.

The ft-86 is no luxury looking car by any stretch.

For me, it's not about the materials if I were to buy something like a Bimmer, it's about the exclusivity and the assumption that the engineering is 100% their own and that said engineering is better than the competition that ultimately justifies the price. If they lose that, they lose the ability to charge what they do IMO.

But, there's no way they're doing this to lower the price they're gonna charge the customer (if they are in fact doing it), just a way to up that profit margin, and I will hold that kind of act against them till the end of time.
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:19 PM   #38
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The Supra is the car world's equivalent of Detox in the rap world.
More chance of Supra coming out.
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:35 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Lane View Post
...BMW is reportedly developing a new V6 hybrid system...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoapBox View Post


Is the Toyota/Subaru platform not capable of supporting added sound deadening and leather?
It defeats the purpose of a small, light, rear wheel drive coupe if you make it weigh 5 million pounds.
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:48 PM   #40
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More chance of Supra coming out.
Yeah.
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:03 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by SoapBox View Post


Is the Toyota/Subaru platform not capable of supporting added sound deadening and leather?

Maybe BMW wants something smaller than their current platform.

If the chassis is stiff, and relatively adaptable (which is apparently is), there's absolutely no reason why you couldn't use it as the basis as a small luxury GT. You're talking about suspension tuning, appointments, etc. That's all independent of the underlying chassis. BMW already uses struts up front. There no reason why it wouldn't be "suitable"...whatever you meant by that.
I am not an automobile engineer, so I won't pretend like I know the details of what is involved in up-scaling a platform. But I think it's safe to assume that it involves more than just putting dynamats and leather on a sports car whose claim to fame is how barebones and raw it is, even at the $25K price point.

Take the current 5 series for instance. It now shares its platform with the 7 series, and as a result it has gained significant weight and complexity beyond the increase in exterior size. It is also a much more substantial and less sporty car than it used to be.

Or take the Infinit G for instance. It shares its platform with the Z, and incidentally it is also the least refined entry in its segment.

Ot take the Acura RL. Almost every reviewer comments that it lacks refinement relative to the competition in the way it drives, even though it came with very advanced AWD system.

So while I don't know exactly what causes these differences, it does seem like there are pretty meaningful differences beyond the drivetrain configuration and basic suspension design. Now given that BMW is moving towards the luxury end of the scale with each new product, it's very hard for me to imagine that the next Z4 will make a 180 and suddenly go for the light weight bona-fide sports car. Nor can I believe that the BRZ platform will provide the most cost effective path for BMW to create a luxury GT platform suitable for their new comfort minded customers (especially in China) that can share parts with their other products.
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:05 PM   #42
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OK, I had just remembered reading this:
The F30 M3 has been confirmed to be I6. The final product could be tri-turbo, but will likely be twin.

http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=798074

BMW experimented with a V6 in developing this new M3. A V6 can be more compact and lighter than an I6, which are valuable attributes for a bloated Z4 hybrid rolling on Gt86 architecture. So the claims from this article make sense to me.
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:28 PM   #43
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Other than the fact that this would be the equivalent of what the american car companies used to do with rebadging crap and selling for WAY more than the cost for such things, which ultimately leads to less credibility for the company IMO.

...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Len View Post
...

So while I don't know exactly what causes these differences, it does seem like there are pretty meaningful differences beyond the drivetrain configuration and basic suspension design. Now given that BMW is moving towards the luxury end of the scale with each new product, it's very hard for me to imagine that the next Z4 will make a 180 and suddenly go for the light weight bona-fide sports car. Nor can I believe that the BRZ platform will provide the most cost effective path for BMW to create a luxury GT platform suitable for their new comfort minded customers (especially in China) that can share parts with their other products.
The bones beneath the current Z4 are no more exotic than those beneath the GT86. The bones beneath any BMW are really no different than those beneath any Toyota, Subaru, whatever. They have different dimensions and probably look a lot different. But the biggest difference is that Toyota is the best in the world in terms of production quality and cost.

The best car will be the one with the cheapest platform. Save money on manufacturing the common, out-of-sight bits and you can invest more into the trimmings - suspension, drivetrain, interior features etc. If you regard all chassis as equal, then you see where saving money on manufacturing and commonizing platforms = better cars. The only risk BMW faces here is loss of face.
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:52 PM   #44
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Hell, the Z3 practically had the old (1984) E30 rear suspension underneath it. The strut/dual-wishbone setup on the twins is no worse than the strut/multi-link on the 3 series & Z4 now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
It defeats the purpose of a small, light, rear wheel drive coupe if you make it weigh 5 million pounds.
BMW (since 1996) can't ****ing hear you.

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Old 02-12-2013, 04:34 PM   #45
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The bones beneath the current Z4 are no more exotic than those beneath the GT86. The bones beneath any BMW are really no different than those beneath any Toyota, Subaru, whatever. They have different dimensions and probably look a lot different. But the biggest difference is that Toyota is the best in the world in terms of production quality and cost.
That sounds extremely simplistic. What do you mean by "bones"? And for the record, I'm not suggesting that BMW sprinkles gold dust on their cars, or that BRZ is not good enough to be a BMW. What I AM suggesting is that

1. there may be more to an "automobile platform" than simply the suspension design and the drivetrain layout, given that many automakers tend to produce different platforms for different market segments, and that a massive platform sharing like the recent effort by VW is supposed to be a huge break through. For instance, how much consideration is given to the NVH of the eventual product at the platform level? If you can simply add sound deadening to whatever car and achieve whatever weight/NVH compromise you want, why are all of the Acuras based on the Accord noisier than the competition?

2. if #1 is true, the BRZ would be suitable for a BMW in 1980's, but not so much any more given their increasing emphasis on luxury.

And here is the thing. If I'm wrong about #1, and all there is to a platform is just the basic driveline layout and chassis design, how is the BRZ platform closer to the Z4 than the existing 1, 2, and 3 series platform that is designed to accept BMW engines, chassis components, steering, electronics, and everything else from ground up? Keep in mind that the current Z4 weighs 3300lbs with a 4 cylinder turbo.
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Old 02-12-2013, 05:45 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Len View Post
That sounds extremely simplistic. What do you mean by "bones"? And for the record, I'm not suggesting that BMW sprinkles gold dust on their cars, or that BRZ is not good enough to be a BMW. What I AM suggesting is that

1. there may be more to an "automobile platform" than simply the suspension design and the drivetrain layout, given that many automakers tend to produce different platforms for different market segments, and that a massive platform sharing like the recent effort by VW is supposed to be a huge break through. For instance, how much consideration is given to the NVH of the eventual product at the platform level? If you can simply add sound deadening to whatever car and achieve whatever weight/NVH compromise you want, why are all of the Acuras based on the Accord noisier than the competition?

2. if #1 is true, the BRZ would be suitable for a BMW in 1980's, but not so much any more given their increasing emphasis on luxury.

And here is the thing. If I'm wrong about #1, and all there is to a platform is just the basic driveline layout and chassis design, how is the BRZ platform closer to the Z4 than the existing 1, 2, and 3 series platform that is designed to accept BMW engines, chassis components, steering, electronics, and everything else from ground up? Keep in mind that the current Z4 weighs 3300lbs with a 4 cylinder turbo.
I am being overly simplistic since it's a lot to get into. But my gist is that there isn't anything that makes a BMW chassis special on average. I'm calling the chassis the bones, or what you'd have left if you stripped a car of body panels and everything else you could without cutting.

In some non-exotic cars you will find special reinforcements, aluminum sub-assembles/construction and maybe proprietary crash impact type stuff that really differentiates it from the average unibody passenger vehicle. But usually everything is just backbone 101. And I'd say Toyota is top of the class there.

As for noise, vehicle acoustics is scarytown. For all I know, you're right, BMW is employing some serious insulation and suspension know-how that works with the chassis to make a difference. And they probably do. But for a drop-top roadster, I can't imagine that mattering so much. I haven't been in the new Z4 but the E85 felt like a Dodge Viper track day car compared to the E9X 3-series and I wouldn't want it any other way.
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:48 PM   #47
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Sure, sure. And the next Camry will be based on the 1-series platform, they'll just stretch it a bit.

If you look at the way the engine and transmission are mounted in the BRZ, it's pretty obvious that unless BMW is planning to use motorcycle engines in the next Z4, this isn't going to happen.





Now look at a BMW I6:



If they wanted to install this engine in a BRZ platform, they would either have to move the engine/transmission hard points by like a foot (which is very difficult and expensive to do) and hope that it would still do ok in crash tests, or borrow the front end from a Rolls-Royce phantom to make it fit.
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:01 PM   #48
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Aside from maintaining the chassis and basic style of the components, struts up front, for example, the mounting and exact geometry could be changed for a more bmw feel.

Plus other options I'm sure.

But this just doesn't seem exactly likely.
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Old 02-13-2013, 01:00 AM   #49
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@bal00, don't be so sure of what won't fit in the engine bay...


skip to 0:23. 2jz, I think they decimated all at race war. never mind that, I don't think this is the only supra motor having been tossed in already.
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Old 02-13-2013, 03:08 AM   #50
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Debunking some stupid rumors here...

The source for the Left-Lane News article says:

Quote:
According to Motor Trend, the next-generation BMW Z4 will ride on a modified version of the rear-wheel drive platform that underpins the Toyota GT86, Scion FR-S and Subaru BRZ. The updated GT86 architecture will also underpin Toyota's upcoming Supra sports car.
But the source from the Motor Trend article they linked says:

Quote:
some speculate that the new BMW-Toyota midsize sports car could yield a new Supra. Expect to see a concept giving us an idea of what to expect from the platform by the end of 2013.
From the other article, all they state is "One insider". What is that, anyways?

Pure speculation inserted into official news = more RUMERZ AND MAGZ SOLD.

Lame. Come back when they actually have a source in BMW or Toyota saying it. For right now, MT and Left-Lane News just got us all to click-through.
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