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Old 02-13-2013, 06:02 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by samagon View Post
@bal00, don't be so sure of what won't fit in the engine bay...
It will fit if you take a sawzall to the chassis, cut out the firewall and basically put the engine inside the dashboard, just like a big block Chevy will fit into an original Mini.

That's not an option if the car needs to pass crash tests, handle, not fall apart within 20k miles and have somewhat acceptable levels of NVH.
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Old 02-13-2013, 08:47 AM   #52
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The good news for people actually interested in this is that there will likely be real, substantial information disseminated to the public as much as 2 years prior to launch. Versus say Subaru, where you first hear of a new model when you see it cruising along side you on a car-carrier on the interstate.
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:07 AM   #53
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Other than the fact that this would be the equivalent of what the american car companies used to do with rebadging crap and selling for WAY more than the cost for such things, which ultimately leads to less credibility for the company IMO.


What the hell are you talking about? No one is talking about "rebadging" a Toyota with a BMW emblem.

We're talking about sharing a platform-only. The body, suspension points/components, wheelbase, track, drivetrain, AKA EVERY OTHER DAMN PART OF THE CAR could be unique.

The Toyota chassis is "crap"? It's actually supposed to be quite good (modular, stiff, etc). Thus, the interest in it.

Most people in here are WAY over-stating what it means in the industry to share a chassis-only, or even only a portion of the chassis.

You could seriously build a pure, small sports car, an econobox, a luxury sedan, a sports sedan, and an SUV on a good basic, modular chassis, and not have any idea it was shared between the other cars.

Get used to it, it's going to be the new standard. Nothing of significance is really sacrificed. They can change all the suspension points, accomodate various drivelines, etc.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:51 AM   #54
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What the hell are you talking about? No one is talking about "rebadging" a Toyota with a BMW emblem.

We're talking about sharing a platform-only. The body, suspension points/components, wheelbase, track, drivetrain, AKA EVERY OTHER DAMN PART OF THE CAR could be unique.

The Toyota chassis is "crap"? It's actually supposed to be quite good (modular, stiff, etc). Thus, the interest in it.

Most people in here are WAY over-stating what it means in the industry to share a chassis-only, or even only a portion of the chassis.

You could seriously build a pure, small sports car, an econobox, a luxury sedan, a sports sedan, and an SUV on a good basic, modular chassis, and not have any idea it was shared between the other cars.

Get used to it, it's going to be the new standard. Nothing of significance is really sacrificed. They can change all the suspension points, accomodate various drivelines, etc.
I would think sharing the platform means sharing the unibody, which doesn't include trunk/fenders/hood/doors. So that's all they would have to use to make the car look unique (headlights and taillights too). To anyone who knows they were doing this, it would be painfully obvious they were using the ft86 chassis.

For the WORST z4 it costs $47k! Again, the only way I'm paying that much for something of those specs is if it's completely unique engineering straight from BMW and ONLY BMW. They want to make the z4 on the ft86 chassis fine, but considering the unibody is the single largest part of the car (where most of the raw material is) and the fact that they save on the engineering of that part, which is what truly makes the car unique, if it had the same bmw engine/suspension that the current one does now and the same interior quality, I'd only pay maybe $37k.

I guarantee they don't drop the price a dime.
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:20 AM   #55
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Platform means hardpoints, not unibody. The Forester and Impreza share a platform.. they both have the same basic floorplan and many of the same mechanical parts, but the form of the unibody above the floor is completely different.
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:35 AM   #56
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Platform means hardpoints, not unibody. The Forester and Impreza share a platform.. they both have the same basic floorplan and many of the same mechanical parts, but the form of the unibody above the floor is completely different.
Ah that makes more sense as to how they could make it work. Doesn't change my unwillingness to buy a product for bmw solo engineered prices without being solo engineered . That being said, the title does say chassis.

There was a point and time where bmw was truly amazing for their mechanical feats and designs, but I fear their golden years are past. The GT2 they cranked out was quite the race car, but I think the last true bmw m car was the e46 m3.
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:39 AM   #57
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Platform means hardpoints, not unibody. The Forester and Impreza share a platform.. they both have the same basic floorplan and many of the same mechanical parts, but the form of the unibody above the floor is completely different.
THANK YOU! I was just coming in here to type that. There's always a recession of intelligence in threads like these where people rewrite definitions to fit their own agenda.

It's not like BMW would create the exact same car that's already the FT-86, sheesh.
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:42 AM   #58
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Dude... nobody is making you buy anything.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:36 PM   #59
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True enough, but I hate to see companies pull stunts like this and end up doing better (making higher profit margins for no good reason instead of innovation) because the general public is just that accepting of mega corps and their products without actual thought or reason.

This is why tech industry has a freaking 50% profit margin.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:38 PM   #60
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BMW is already the highest profit margin vehicle maker... how does that jive with your outrage?
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Old 02-13-2013, 04:19 PM   #61
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True enough, but I hate to see companies pull stunts like this and end up doing better (making higher profit margins for no good reason instead of innovation) because the general public is just that accepting of mega corps and their products without actual thought or reason.

This is why tech industry has a freaking 50% profit margin.
Are you implying that Capitalism doesn't work? That consumers are incapable of making companies innovate instead of grabbing cash? UNPOSSIBLE!
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Old 02-13-2013, 04:58 PM   #62
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Ah that makes more sense as to how they could make it work. Doesn't change my unwillingness to buy a product for bmw solo engineered prices without being solo engineered . That being said, the title does say chassis.

There was a point and time where bmw was truly amazing for their mechanical feats and designs, but I fear their golden years are past. The GT2 they cranked out was quite the race car, but I think the last true bmw m car was the e46 m3.
You do know that in house engineering at BMW has been less than 45% since 2005, and down to ~30% in the past 5 years...right?

Their overall goal is 25%.
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Old 02-13-2013, 05:02 PM   #63
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oh how 2008 really really really created a twilight zone for the auto industry.
well said, end thread.
I pity the trendy fools spending +$20k on BMW emblems over their toyobaru econobox.
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Old 02-14-2013, 08:09 AM   #64
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I would think sharing the platform means sharing the unibody,
No, it doesn't.

Do the Genesis sedan and Genesis coupe share the saem unibody?

Of course not. They do use modified versions of the same underlying platform.

Edit, see below.
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Old 02-14-2013, 08:12 AM   #65
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Platform means hardpoints, not unibody. The Forester and Impreza share a platform.. they both have the same basic floorplan and many of the same mechanical parts, but the form of the unibody above the floor is completely different.
Calamity to the rescue!
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:18 AM   #66
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Platform means hardpoints, not unibody. The Forester and Impreza share a platform.. they both have the same basic floorplan and many of the same mechanical parts, but the form of the unibody above the floor is completely different.
This is why I am mad at Ford for no 4 door Mustang.
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:31 AM   #67
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This is why I am mad at Ford for no 4 door Mustang.
Would you really want a 4-door/rwd/Ford called a "Mustang" or would you just want the equivalent of that under a different name; because the image of a Mustang doesn't "jive" with a 4-door. They should just bring the Falcon over. Unless you can get your hands on this:



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Old 02-14-2013, 09:32 AM   #68
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Would you really want a 4-door/rwd/Ford called a "Mustang" or would you just want the equivalent of that under a different name; because the image of a Mustang doesn't "jive" with a 4-door. They should just bring the Falcon over. Unless you can get your hands on this:



No, but a return of the Falcon would be awesome
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:07 AM   #69
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Are you implying that Capitalism doesn't work? That consumers are incapable of making companies innovate instead of grabbing cash? UNPOSSIBLE!
Not in the least, I'm implying the general public is too retarded to actually do anything about stuff like that and I'm angry for being one of the few who cares. If the public wants to continue getting pooped on, by all means they should continue to get pooped on. I won't try to actually force anything to happen because I think I know better.

Your biggest mistake is assuming I care if humanity disappears at the hands of "greedy" corporations instead of learning to fight them back.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:09 AM   #70
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You do know that in house engineering at BMW has been less than 45% since 2005, and down to ~30% in the past 5 years...right?

Their overall goal is 25%.
That's why I feel the e46 was the last real BMW... it makes sense now. That's pretty much right when I started disliking the direction they were taking.
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Old 02-14-2013, 02:50 PM   #71
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Look, the underlying problem with this rumor is not that it is technically impossible to turn a BRZ into a Z4 (of more visceral variety, probably), but that it's very hard to imagine why BMW would want that.

Let's turn it around, and imagine that Toyota will use the Mini platform to make the next generation Yaris. Is it technically possible? Of course, they are both FWD sub-compact cars. But why would Toyota do that, when they already have plenty of FWD platforms of all sizes available in their arsenal, and the Mini platform is likely engineered to a different price point than the Yaris?

Similarly, the idea that BMW would have to borrow a small RWD platform from someone else to make the Z4 just seems far-fetched, not because they can't make it work, but because I don't see why they would want to given what they already have.
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Old 02-14-2013, 05:02 PM   #72
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That's why I feel the e46 was the last real BMW... it makes sense now. That's pretty much right when I started disliking the direction they were taking.
Wow you had the ability to 'sense' when the engineering dollars were be redirected and you did not even know how brilliant you were...

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Old 02-14-2013, 05:47 PM   #73
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Wow you had the ability to 'sense' when the engineering dollars were be redirected and you did not even know how brilliant you were...

:P not what I meant, but on numerous occasions I have hailed the last good bimmer as the e46 m3. I honestly had no idea bmw had gone so far from their own capabilities and it just made sense when I found that out literally in this thread.
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Old 02-14-2013, 06:15 PM   #74
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Look, the underlying problem with this rumor is not that it is technically impossible to turn a BRZ into a Z4 (of more visceral variety, probably), but that it's very hard to imagine why BMW would want that.
But it is technically impossible, unless BMW wants to redesign the entire platform, which would make the whole thing pointless.

There are certain elements to a platform that cannot be changed without scrapping most of the design. Among them are the hard points for the engine/transmission/axles as well as the position of the firewall in relation to the front axle.

The BRZ was designed around a flat 4, which means it's not going to accomodate an engine that's about twice as long and significantly taller. Neither is it going to accomodate the long hood/short deck body proportions of BMW Z models, because the A-pillar is almost a foot further forwards.
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Old 02-14-2013, 06:54 PM   #75
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But it is technically impossible, unless BMW wants to redesign the entire platform, which would make the whole thing pointless.

There are certain elements to a platform that cannot be changed without scrapping most of the design. Among them are the hard points for the engine/transmission/axles as well as the position of the firewall in relation to the front axle.

The BRZ was designed around a flat 4, which means it's not going to accomodate an engine that's about twice as long and significantly taller. Neither is it going to accomodate the long hood/short deck body proportions of BMW Z models, because the A-pillar is almost a foot further forwards.
That's even more reason to discount this rumor then. I had my doubts about the technical feasibility, but since I don't know enough about the subject, I chose not to argue about it. The bottom line is that this rumor is absolutely ridiculous, and fits the general quality of reporting coming out of Motor Trend.
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