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Old 02-14-2014, 05:11 PM   #701
gpshumway
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Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
On what? A track racing perspective, sure. However the fwd in the gti is an absolute blast on the street. The only thing I miss about my sti is doing donuts and playing in the snow. However, mountain passes and canyon roads are insnaely fun with my gti and good tires.

I had the same view before actually test driving my gti. Always though fwd is whack and completely boring. I have nothing but positive things to say about my mkvi gti. I do however partially kick myself in the ass for not springing for the R. But after seeing this new mkvii, I'm glad I waited.

The only problem when looking at the cost of the new R, I could easily pick up a CPO 1 series BMW. Id nut for a 1 series with cobb stage 2, with springs and sway bars.
The key phrase being "all else equal". The sti has lousy suspension tuning, so what you're saying is a bad AWD car is not quite as good as a great FWD car, but that doesn't meet the "all else equal" criteria. Great handling FWD cars have been around a long time and have always been better than mediocre RWD or AWD cars. My stock 5.0 Mustang was a total turd compared to a Prelude 4WS or SH, or an ITR, but an S2000 is even better. I suspect you agree good RWD beats good FWD given your 1-series desires. A magazine (R&T?) did a Focus ST vs BRZ comparo and the BRZ walked away with the handling scores. I suspect any decent enthusiast driver who did a back-to back comparison between a GTI or Focus ST and a 3-Series sport package, ATS, RX8 or EVO X would agree.
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Old 02-14-2014, 07:20 PM   #702
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^ I agree with you

There are good FWD no doubt, but in the end of the day, it can't get away from physics.

There is a reason there is never a FWD sports car. I don't think Ferrari ever thought a second to use FWD... or maybe i'm wrong

There are some really good FWD in the past, but I think cars are getting too big and heavy for FWD. Compact FWD hot hatches are 3000 to 3300 lbs these days

They should bring the Polo R
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Old 02-14-2014, 07:24 PM   #703
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FWD in a fast car is god awful, dangerous, and should be outlawed.

Obviously that's over the top, My turbo Cobalt SS was scary at times.

What a POS car that was. Fast as hell and could corner with the best of them though. Motortrend got it around Nurburgring faster then a evo, e46, and a handful of other cars it should have never beat.
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Old 02-14-2014, 08:44 PM   #704
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I'm not disagreeing that a awd or rwd car with proper suspension will out handle any fwd car on a track. But how many people ever take their car to the track? The vast majority want something fun on the streets and up mountain passes. I'm will to venture that 90% of the people on this forum that talk about racing dynamics, suspension, etc have never out their car on the track.

When looking at the gti and R model, I'm not discussing them in terms of their ability to keep up on the track, everyone knows that they are inferior cars. However, I think for street and canyon roads, the gti and R's comfort, and stock suspension provide for a much more enjoyable drive than an STI or other equivalent car. So many people at caught up in this 400whp crap and equate it to a more pleasurable car. I'm sorry, but I've had high horsepower vehicles, they are far from enjoyable. They are exciting and fun, the feeling of the engine pushing you back is great, but it's not a comfortable ride.

A dd is not a track car, and a track car is not a daily driver. People that attempt to do so are beyond idiotic in my mind.
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Old 02-14-2014, 08:55 PM   #705
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Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
I'm not disagreeing that a awd or rwd car with proper suspension will out handle any fwd car on a track. But how many people ever take their car to the track? The vast majority want something fun on the streets and up mountain passes. I'm will to venture that 90% of the people on this forum that talk about racing dynamics, suspension, etc have never out their car on the track.

When looking at the gti and R model, I'm not discussing them in terms of their ability to keep up on the track, everyone knows that they are inferior cars. However, I think for street and canyon roads, the gti and R's comfort, and stock suspension provide for a much more enjoyable drive than an STI or other equivalent car.

A dd is not a track car, and a track car is not a daily driver. People that attempt to do so are beyond idiotic in my mind.
Anything other than FWD does not mean it has to be a track car

Enjoyable drive is subjective, you don't really need a GTi to have fun in the street or canyon. One can have the same amount of fun in a Prius or a Porsche.

We are mostly car enthusiasts here, therefore, prefer car enthusiast drive-trains
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Old 02-14-2014, 09:53 PM   #706
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s a reason there is never a FWD sports car. I don't think Ferrari ever thought a second to use FWD... or maybe i'm wrong
Ferrari uses RWD because real sports cars are RWD only. AWD is nice and all for helping average drivers go faster by adding grip but RWD is the holy grail of sports cars. I find it hard to look down on FWD from AWD as both setups understeer by nature and neither are RWD at the end of the day.
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Old 02-14-2014, 11:09 PM   #707
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Ferrari uses RWD because real sports cars are RWD only. AWD is nice and all for helping average drivers go faster by adding grip but RWD is the holy grail of sports cars. I find it hard to look down on FWD from AWD as both setups understeer by nature and neither are RWD at the end of the day.
Don't look down on AWD just yet

AWD cars were mostly born from rally. Group B Audi Quattros made it extremely popular and almost a neccessity. Bringing along the AWD group A cars soon after.

AWD is no slouch, as the R32 Skyline GTR dominated the RWD V8s in Bathurst

RWD is the most pure layout, while AWD can be setup with RWD bias, thus RWD and AWD is preferred in performance cars

RWD Performace cars
Mclaren P1
MP4-12C
Ferrari 458
Porsche GT3
BMW M3

AWD performance cars of today:
Porsche 911 Turbo S
Ferrari FF
Porsche 918
Nissan GTR
Aventador
R8

There is never any FWD sport cars outside of hot hatches and tuners. The layout is more for economy and interior dimension purposes.

We like the BRZ, Mustangs, WRX, STi, Golf R, and EVOs because they are affordable and when tuned has the spirit of those cars above
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Old 02-15-2014, 01:04 AM   #708
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There is a reason there is never a FWD sports car.



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Old 02-15-2014, 01:35 AM   #709
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From the wiki.
Quote:
A sports car (sportscar) is a small, usually two seat, two door automobile designed for spirited performance and nimble handling. Sports cars may be spartan or luxurious but high maneuverability and minimum weight are requisite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
....When looking at the gti and R model, I'm not discussing them in terms of their ability to keep up on the track, everyone knows that they are inferior cars. However, I think for street and canyon roads, the gti and R's comfort, and stock suspension provide for a much more enjoyable drive than an STI or other equivalent car.
And if it is raining or snowing? The great thing about terminal understeer is you can see the snow bank you are abut to hit through the windshield.

Quote:
Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
....A dd is not a track car, and a track car is not a daily driver. People that attempt to do so are beyond idiotic in my mind.
Yet that is exactly what "sports cars" were designed to do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
Ferrari uses RWD because real sports cars are RWD only. AWD is nice and all for helping average drivers go faster by adding grip but RWD is the holy grail of sports cars. I find it hard to look down on FWD from AWD as both setups understeer by nature and neither are RWD at the end of the day.
So Porsche 911's since 1989 (when the /4 became available) are not "real sports cars?" AWD Lambos? Bugatti Veyron? Whew, well at least I have one "real sports car."


When Datsun introduced the 1500 roadster in the early 60's people said it wasn't a "real sports car" - because it wasn't British or Italian.

Last edited by Garandman; 02-15-2014 at 02:04 AM.
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Old 02-15-2014, 02:26 AM   #710
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I have no interest in debating performance characteristics of fwd cars because it's a simple daily driver issue that kills it for me.

When I try to pull away quickly from a stop sign or light, I spin my tires - especially on dirty, wet, snowy, or inclined pavement. In other words, most of the situations I encounter in my city. About half throttle is all it takes to spin. That's dumb.

I'm done with powerful FWD cars. Never again.
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Old 02-15-2014, 02:47 AM   #711
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I have no interest in debating performance characteristics of fwd cars because it's a simple daily driver issue that kills it for me.

When I try to pull away quickly from a stop sign or light, I spin my tires - especially on dirty, wet, snowy, or inclined pavement. In other words, most of the situations I encounter in my city. About half throttle is all it takes to spin. That's dumb.

I'm done with powerful FWD cars. Never again.
+1. I was all set to buy a '14 Focus ST. That is, until I test drove it.
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Old 02-15-2014, 03:55 AM   #712
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+1. I was all set to buy a '14 Focus ST. That is, until I test drove it.
We have a couple of company Honda Accord V6's. In the rain from a stoplight they will spin the fronts like a mofo. To go up a steep snow covered hill, we have to shut off traction control, even with snow tires.

A WRX is always going to push a little but that's not really a Bad Thing. Changing the tires, changing the shocks and understeer is minimal, without having to worry about wheelspin in low traction conditions (ie, this entire winter!).
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Old 02-15-2014, 07:47 PM   #713
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Skywaffles, I stand corrected

Who can forget the brilliant Alpha GTV6

http://youtu.be/CCX17GwiR-c
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Old 02-15-2014, 10:31 PM   #714
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Originally Posted by kukabuka View Post
I have no interest in debating performance characteristics of fwd cars because it's a simple daily driver issue that kills it for me.

When I try to pull away quickly from a stop sign or light, I spin my tires - especially on dirty, wet, snowy, or inclined pavement. In other words, most of the situations I encounter in my city. About half throttle is all it takes to spin. That's dumb.

I'm done with powerful FWD cars. Never again.
You haven't driven a powerful RWD car either.
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Old 02-15-2014, 11:17 PM   #715
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Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
I'm not disagreeing that a awd or rwd car with proper suspension will out handle any fwd car on a track. But how many people ever take their car to the track? The vast majority want something fun on the streets and up mountain passes. I'm will to venture that 90% of the people on this forum that talk about racing dynamics, suspension, etc have never out their car on the track.

When looking at the gti and R model, I'm not discussing them in terms of their ability to keep up on the track, everyone knows that they are inferior cars. However, I think for street and canyon roads, the gti and R's comfort, and stock suspension provide for a much more enjoyable drive than an STI or other equivalent car. So many people at caught up in this 400whp crap and equate it to a more pleasurable car. I'm sorry, but I've had high horsepower vehicles, they are far from enjoyable. They are exciting and fun, the feeling of the engine pushing you back is great, but it's not a comfortable ride.

A dd is not a track car, and a track car is not a daily driver. People that attempt to do so are beyond idiotic in my mind.
I am in the camp of wanting a comfortable but *very capable* road car. When I was in my twenties, I'd have wanted a track-oriented car as my daily driver, but those days are gone. Fit, finish, feel, and refinement have become more important to me than how many Gs the car pulls on a glass-smooth surface. Screw that, in fact. I am more concerned with the car's ability to limit wheelspin in mixed weather on everyday roads, handle well while not sacrificing ride quality, and accelerate better than the non-enthusiast masses. If a car checks all three of those boxes and looks good inside and out, I am sold.
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Old 02-16-2014, 03:08 PM   #716
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I am in the camp of wanting a comfortable but *very capable* road car. When I was in my twenties, I'd have wanted a track-oriented car as my daily driver, but those days are gone. Fit, finish, feel, and refinement have become more important to me than how many Gs the car pulls on a glass-smooth surface. Screw that, in fact. I am more concerned with the car's ability to limit wheelspin in mixed weather on everyday roads, handle well while not sacrificing ride quality, and accelerate better than the non-enthusiast masses. If a car checks all three of those boxes and looks good inside and out, I am sold.
I would say the Golf R would be a nice choice, but for "very capable" and comfort. I think GTR or 911 Turbo. I've seen many daily driven GTR up north in snow w/ winter tires and is very capable all weather
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:52 PM   #717
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I would say the Golf R would be a nice choice, but for "very capable" and comfort. I think GTR or 911 Turbo. I've seen many daily driven GTR up north in snow w/ winter tires and is very capable all weather
Hmmm hotted up econobox hatchback vs cars 2-3 times it's price range.
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Old 02-17-2014, 09:27 AM   #718
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kukabuka View Post
I have no interest in debating performance characteristics of fwd cars because it's a simple daily driver issue that kills it for me.

When I try to pull away quickly from a stop sign or light, I spin my tires - especially on dirty, wet, snowy, or inclined pavement. In other words, most of the situations I encounter in my city. About half throttle is all it takes to spin. That's dumb.

I'm done with powerful FWD cars. Never again.
You haven't driven a powerful RWD car either.
Word. My MCS is probably much faster in the hands of an average driver off the line (and up to legal speeds) than your BOSS in those snowy conditions.

Source: I've driven them both on snow tires and I'm an average driver.
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Old 02-17-2014, 01:44 PM   #719
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Originally Posted by kukabuka View Post
I have no interest in debating performance characteristics of fwd cars because it's a simple daily driver issue that kills it for me.

When I try to pull away quickly from a stop sign or light, I spin my tires - especially on dirty, wet, snowy, or inclined pavement. In other words, most of the situations I encounter in my city. About half throttle is all it takes to spin. That's dumb.

I'm done with powerful FWD cars. Never again.
So you don't know how to drive, got it.

<----- Owned a Mazdaspeed3 and never had issues with (unintentional) wheelspin. Best car I've owned for snow driving, too. Definitely better than the WRX I owned previously.
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Old 02-17-2014, 02:21 PM   #720
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Ferrari uses RWD because real sports cars are RWD only. AWD is nice and all for helping average drivers go faster by adding grip but RWD is the holy grail of sports cars. I find it hard to look down on FWD from AWD as both setups understeer by nature and neither are RWD at the end of the day.
Lol.

I love it.

Do you know why real sports cars are RWD only?

The FIA (and other governing bodies) banned the use of AWD in pretty much every race series. Here's a little known secret, they didn't ban AWD because it sucked. It was banned before money was really an issue for the sport, so that's not really a valid point, if you were thinking of making it.
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Old 02-17-2014, 02:28 PM   #721
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So you don't know how to drive, got it.

<----- Owned a Mazdaspeed3 and never had issues with (unintentional) wheelspin. Best car I've owned for snow driving, too. Definitely better than the WRX I owned previously.
I drove an Integra GSR for 8 years. If the tires weren't brand new and I had to accelerate out of the neighborhood to make it across traffic before dying of old age, the front end would wash out. I've never had that problem in any of my AWD cars.

Only car I ever drove in the snow was a 74 bug, it did okay when the engine warmed up and the carb wasn't icing.
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Old 02-17-2014, 02:32 PM   #722
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So you don't know how to drive, got it.

<----- Owned a Mazdaspeed3 and never had issues with (unintentional) wheelspin. Best car I've owned for snow driving, too. Definitely better than the WRX I owned previously.

One thing that makes a difference in the speed3 is the LSD. Helps a lot. That's not to say you can't refrain from wheel w/ an open diff but it makes it a lot easier. And you can accelerate faster pulling out without inducing wheel spin.
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Old 02-17-2014, 04:07 PM   #723
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One thing that makes a difference in the speed3 is the LSD. Helps a lot. That's not to say you can't refrain from wheel w/ an open diff but it makes it a lot easier. And you can accelerate faster pulling out without inducing wheel spin.
I agree a 100%. Also, I run good summer tires on my ms3 (235/40/18) and traction is not hindering the performance at all.
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Old 02-17-2014, 04:46 PM   #724
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Lol.

I love it.

Do you know why real sports cars are RWD only?
Yeah because real sports cars don't understeer. I owned an EVO X that could be coaxed into oversteer via electronic torque vectoring but that's not a pure sports car and if you remove the electronic vectoring all AWD cars understeer as much or more than a well set up FWD car.

There's a reason the Miata has and always will be RWD.
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Old 02-17-2014, 06:49 PM   #725
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Because an evo has great weight distribution.

And if you remove the electronics cars won't even run.

The miata has a formula, it's good, does that make it the best formula ever? No.
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