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Old 09-16-2013, 01:33 AM   #1151
TheRipler
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Like I said, ban Adrian Newey.
or clone him.
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Old 09-16-2013, 02:25 AM   #1152
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haha cloning him would be pretty legit, but then making f1 into a spec series with all the same cars. We just need no more freaking rules!!!!
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Old 09-16-2013, 01:41 PM   #1153
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or clone him.
Or pull the wings off these cars to significantly reduce the overall influence of aero on lap times...
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Old 09-16-2013, 01:46 PM   #1154
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Or pull the wings off these cars to significantly reduce the overall influence of aero on lap times...
I Have Been A Proponent Of This For A While Now.Then We Could Throw Some Stuff Back In, Like Active Suspension
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Old 09-16-2013, 02:18 PM   #1155
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Or pull the wings off these cars to significantly reduce the overall influence of aero on lap times...
See the last race? On the tracks where the wing is very much off the car, the racing is not better. The difference just goes to which chassis is generating the most downforce from aspects beyond the wings.

The RB is making more downforce, sans wings, than the others.
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Old 09-16-2013, 02:19 PM   #1156
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P.S. Montoya to IndyCar with Penske. There's a big FU Chip.
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Old 09-16-2013, 04:05 PM   #1157
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Or pull the wings off these cars to significantly reduce the overall influence of aero on lap times...
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Originally Posted by SoapBox View Post
See the last race? ...the wing is very much off the car...


OK here is FIF1's front wing at Monza:

That is a bunch of front wing!

And Caterham's front wing at Monza:

Again, a bunch of front wing...

Here is an example of a highly reduced wing in the paddock of a supporting junior formula at the same event:


Very reduced wings!

A great example of highly reduced wings (small cord and flat) can be found every year at Euro F3's Norisring race (much of F1's current top tier talent raced here). We can see long brake zones, nose to tail drafting, and side by side action. The driving talent and mistakes jump out:

And of course, here is an example of wingless F1:


Reducing the influence of aero downforce on laptimes would make for better racing, better driving, and more relevant engineering.
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Old 09-16-2013, 04:43 PM   #1158
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Reducing the influence of aero downforce on laptimes would make for better racing, better driving, and more relevant engineering.
Was the point really that unclear? Of course they were running some win, but comparatively, they were running very trimmed out compared to a "normal" downforce setup.

The racing didn't really get better (although some of the lesser teams could run toward the front). In fact, it took away the benefit of DRS, as most of the rear downforce was gone anyway.

I'm all for less aero, always have been. But how was Monza not evidence that the effect might not be as great as we think it will be?

There needs to be a ton of rules to get downforce off the car, not jsut via less wing, but through the chassis as well. It's so competitive, with so much $$$ being thrown at it, I'm not sure any set of rules, sans a spec chassis, can correct it.
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Old 09-16-2013, 06:10 PM   #1159
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Yeah JPM to Indy with Penske was definitely a shocker to me today! I know Andretti was throwing offers to him and he rejected them very quickly!
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Old 09-16-2013, 07:59 PM   #1160
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Lightbulb Two topics: Reducing RB's advantage vs Improving racing

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Was the point really that unclear?
Your point seemed clear enough. Let us know if this summarizes it correctly:
  1. At Monza '13 “the wing is very much off the car”
  2. The racing was not really better at Monza '13
  3. You conclude that less wing means the racing is not really better
If I've understood you correctly then, as seen in the photos above it was very clear that there was relatively much wing on the F1 cars at Monza (versus no wings, or even small wings). Your point was clearly wrong there.

Please note that the context of my little post was that the conversation prior had been about the advantage that Newey's car seems to enjoy over the rest of the field. Three fun solutions were proffered here, including mine.

So back to your point. If your goal is to improve racing, then the first step is to realize that the technical challenge of Monza is now unique on the F1 calendar. The old Hockenheim lay-out used to present a very similar technical challenge but that lay-out is no longer on the calendar.

The area where aero reduction can assist improving F1 racing would be to allow cars to follow each other more closely through medium speed turns. Because wings are generally more susceptible to aero turbulence, some folks, including myself, suggest that pulling the wings off the cars can help with that.

Last edited by OnTheGas; 09-16-2013 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:12 PM   #1161
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Why not limit downforce to a %age of vehicle weight?

Easy enough.
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:25 PM   #1162
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Originally Posted by ProfessWRX View Post
Why not limit downforce to a %age of vehicle weight?

Easy enough.
Yeah, piece of cake. Downforce isn't affected by speed, tire degredation or any other factors.
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:26 PM   #1163
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Yeah, piece of cake. Downforce isn't affected by speed, tire degredation or any other factors.
Yeah they can't pick a set of guidelines for determination. You're right. How'd you get so smart?
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:45 PM   #1164
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It's an asinine idea at best. Let's just leave it at that.
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:48 PM   #1165
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It's an asinine idea at best. Let's just leave it at that.
The whole conversation is asinine. Ass. Leave it at that.
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:53 PM   #1166
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The whole conversation is asinine. Ass. Leave it at that.
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Old 09-17-2013, 06:19 AM   #1167
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Not completely it isn't. I support the toning down of aero.

One thing to consider is that a significant portion of the wake and rear down-force' is from the diffuser and body work, the wing is for balance to some degree. I think that may be why we see so much front wing in Monza now. Rear aero development has come so far that a decent plane has to be used to keep the car balanced.

That and it doesn't affect drag drastically being right in front of two tires.

Teams have recently and are still investing in wind tunnels. It seems they may think those investments a waste if we go too far. I wish we could just see a larger portion of tire, suspension, and loss of drag (there is some aero) development utilized more. There are grumblings coming nowadays. Lets hope they are more than the usual. If we can drop that darn down-force there wont be a grip wake" to worry about.

Edit, Notice most of the plane is just blocking tire anyways.

Last edited by parker/slc/gc8fan; 09-17-2013 at 07:48 AM.
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Old 09-17-2013, 08:31 AM   #1168
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  1. You conclude that less wing means the racing is not really better


I said the racing at Monza wasn't better. It wasn't.

I also stated that I am, and always have been, in favor of taking away downforce.

I also said that, perhaps, eliminating a lot of the wing may not have the dramatic effect we all assume(d) it would (as designers get better and better at generating downforce from other aspects of the chassis).

Holy over statements man...

Last edited by SoapBox; 09-17-2013 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 09-20-2013, 02:58 AM   #1169
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donno if it was worth a new thread but I'm somewhat annoyed by this new film Rush... the trailers are making me not want to watch it.
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Old 09-20-2013, 03:38 AM   #1170
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Lie down on the couch and tell us more
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Old 09-20-2013, 10:04 AM   #1171
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donno if it was worth a new thread but I'm somewhat annoyed by this new film Rush... the trailers are making me not want to watch it.
Why so? I agree that i was not expecting to see the trailer like 5 times a day but i'm still super stoked to see the movie! I have a friend in Europe who saw it already and he is a pro-driver racing in AutoGP with 2 ex-f1 driver's and he still said the movie was pretty legit!
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Old 09-20-2013, 10:20 AM   #1172
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donno if it was worth a new thread but I'm somewhat annoyed by this new film Rush... the trailers are making me not want to watch it.
I think Panda Lover in OT (where there is a thread for the movie) saw it last night and said it was great. Maybe at the Jalopnik film fest. Everything I've heard so far is positive.
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Old 09-20-2013, 11:32 AM   #1173
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donno if it was worth a new thread but I'm somewhat annoyed by this new film Rush... the trailers are making me not want to watch it.
i've successfully avoided 100% of the trailers/news/reviews and will be going in cold.

but i already know how it ends so it's ruined anyway
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Old 09-20-2013, 12:23 PM   #1174
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i've successfully avoided 100% of the trailers/news/reviews and will be going in cold.

but i already know how it ends so it's ruined anyway


I'm sure a lot of people don't know how it ends, unlike Titanic or Apollo 13, so it must be nice to go in not knowing.
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Old 09-20-2013, 12:38 PM   #1175
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what happened in TIT-anic?
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