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Old 02-21-2013, 01:24 PM   #26
Calamity Jesus
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Agreed. That model is the future of all retail/manufacturing. Self-customize, then pay, then build and deliver. Cut out the need for stores, salesmen, and the balance sheet will show almost 0 inventory, which kills companies.
There are franchising laws in place that prevent you ordering a car directly from the manufacturer..


I'm not saying that I don't want to see that happen.. just bringing up the reality of the situation.
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For people who need a car now there will be models that can be built faster or a few pre-built examples...and used cars.
The vast majority of the buying public buys a new car within 1 week. Only enthusiasts put themselves on waiting lists for cars that have yet to be built.
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Old 02-21-2013, 04:51 PM   #27
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Probably not as cars were an improvement on a horse in every measureable aspect.
You mean in no aspects? Roads were primitive so you were limited where you could travel (sounds familiar) compared to a horse. They had terrible range because you had to put gas in them instead of just letting them graze, also sounds familiar. They were more expensive, prone to breaking down, slower than a horse, and in most places you had to have someone walk in front of you to warn pedestrians. That sounds like the future to me! I'll stick to horses.
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Old 02-21-2013, 04:53 PM   #28
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The vast majority of the buying public buys a new car within 1 week. Only enthusiasts put themselves on waiting lists for cars that have yet to be built.
That's doable if you have the right supply chain and inventory system. You just keep body in white inventory then finish the car when you get an order. You could even charge extra for quick turn service for the extra inventory cost (which would still be lower than holding a complete car).
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:12 PM   #29
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Because no one here has EVER had to replace an engine...
Engines or motors are relatively inexpensive to replace. High-end batteries are not.
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:32 PM   #30
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You mean in no aspects? Roads were primitive so you were limited where you could travel (sounds familiar) compared to a horse. They had terrible range because you had to put gas in them instead of just letting them graze, also sounds familiar. They were more expensive, prone to breaking down, slower than a horse, and in most places you had to have someone walk in front of you to warn pedestrians. That sounds like the future to me! I'll stick to horses.
I see what you are getting at, but there is a difference. Cars improved in just a relatively few years to make the horse obsolete. Electric cars will never make leaps and bounds improvements over gas cars in terms of performance or function. Only in terms of efficiency will EV surpass gas cars. But not in function. Now if an EV could drive across the country without stopping, say by using embedded charging lines in the road, now THAT would be a huge improvement and would go a LONG way to killing the Gas powered car.

The horse was not an evolvable technology. The gasoline car was and still is. The horse never had a chance. The EV is definitely evolvable technology, but it is striving to to match the gas car in terms of ease of use. The EV only offers gas free operation. It does not offer more room, or cheaper price, or more range, or more convenience, or more freedom.

So while I get what you are saying about the first most privative cars, by the time the model T was rolling around the horse was quickly on its way out. The only thing that will end the reign of the Gas car is a destruction of its infrastructure.
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:52 PM   #31
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Engines or motors are relatively inexpensive to replace. High-end batteries are not.
Eh not so much anymore.

Model S performance pack hp/tq numbers fall right around a GT and BOSS 302

The battery cost $12,000 from Tesla BOSS 302 motor is $12,000 from FORD and the GT is $8000
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:47 PM   #32
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There are franchising laws in place that prevent you ordering a car directly from the manufacturer..


I'm not saying that I don't want to see that happen.. just bringing up the reality of the situation.
The vast majority of the buying public buys a new car within 1 week. Only enthusiasts put themselves on waiting lists for cars that have yet to be built.
The world is changing. We are in the midst of a transformation which will change forever how we view retail, employment and manufacturing (among other areas).

Laws can change once dealer lobbying and UAW lobbying power is greatly reduced. Robots and websites don't form unions. Inbeforeyougobackintimetosavesarahconnor!

The public is willing to buy anything on the lot because they believe it is a "deal" or they are not used to having the ability to customize and get fast turn around. Dell and custom eye glass frame stores do it already. Plus, without inventory and dealerships it would be cheaper than today. That's the real "deal." You could customize options, paint and ship across country in a week with the right supply chain and network.

Last edited by Snow Drift; 02-21-2013 at 09:53 PM.
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:54 PM   #33
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Why is it that all these Tesla threads turn into Scrappy talks about why he hates EVs threads?
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:05 AM   #34
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Actually you would be wrong. Only about 2/3rds end up that way.
ANd I pride myself on consistency.
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:04 AM   #35
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I have no problem with your opinion about the cars, you have some valid points. It just turns every thread into an argument about the fundamental merits and downfalls of EVs.
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:12 AM   #36
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I think the problem is that people allow opinions to be taken personally. Perhaps I could help matters in how I come across as well. After all, I am certainly part of the problem.
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:18 AM   #37
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The EV only offers gas free operation. It does not offer more room,
The packaging constraints of an ICE powered car are absent in an EV. Have you seen the Model S's frunk, trunk and 7 seat configuration?





It most certainly does offer more room than a comparable ICE car.

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or cheaper price,
Not yet.. but they will be soon.

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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
or more range,
The EV taxis with swappable batteries running around Tokyo have just as much real world range as any gasoline powered car.

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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
or more convenience,
Charging at home vs at the pump? Sounds pretty convenient to me.
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or more freedom.
Like dependence on foreign oil?
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:41 AM   #38
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Okay, I can play buddy.

They are more expensive NOW, and will be for a LONG time...

The two rear seats are as much of a joke in this as were in the Subaru BRAT. So please. No adult will sit back there. I could put two fold down seats in the back of an outback and have similar room. There is essetially NO rear trunk with those stupid jump seats back there.

Okay so in tokyo some CABS have 'unlimited' range, what about in Gulf Port Mississippi, or Salem Oregon, or Anchorage Alaska? They are LIMITED. One data point of a location half way around the world does not make them work better HERE and NOW.

Filling up at 1 location versus 168,000 gas stations, gas convenience wins every time. Taking 5 minutes to fill up, versus 2 hours. Gas wins again. The ability to drive more than 130 miles from home, gas wins again. Winner for convenience is GAS. At least until the electric infrastructure is built up. Then they still have to fix those horrible charging times. Until then the EV is for short commutes only and is limited to close to home activities.

We do not have to be dependent on foreign oil if we did not want to be. Well at least foreign oil from contries that hate us anyway. Still if everybody drove an EV, we would definitely use less oil, but we could not really travel anywhere. The EV is only held back by its supporting hardware. It would be a decent enough appliance/camry replacement if it could be filled up quickly and in many many locations.

Until then, the story will go like this...Sorry son, the Grand Canyon is beyond the range of our car. Cannot go until they build up some charging stations. Cannot to go grandmas either. OH wait, sure we can, we can take the Accord V6

The only technical thing holding the EV back is the lack of an infrasture and the unliveale charging times. EV will ALWAYS be novelty items up until that time. They will be second or third cars. Even then, the only way they will replace the gas cars is if they stop selling gas, or convert all the gas stations to EV charging points.

I know you are a fan of the vehicles Calamity, but they are just not able to compete with the price and practicality of gas powered cars. One day that may change. When that day comes, is anybodies guess
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:45 AM   #39
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(Cheaper) Not yet.. but they will be soon.
If it was 40K for the current 120K model, maybe fewer D'bags would be driving them.

The image sells it, which is why it is gay as hell.
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:06 PM   #40
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I have no problem with your opinion about the cars, you have some valid points. It just turns every thread into an argument about the fundamental merits and downfalls of EVs.
Every thread is doomed to spiral into an argument because there's just not that much new and relevant information coming out to fill pages and pages. Forums are for discussions (arguments/thought expression), blogs are for news, and dedicated fan sites are for group-think.
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Old 02-22-2013, 01:19 PM   #41
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I see what you are getting at, but there is a difference. Cars improved in just a relatively few years to make the horse obsolete. Electric cars will never make leaps and bounds improvements over gas cars in terms of performance or function. Only in terms of efficiency will EV surpass gas cars. But not in function. Now if an EV could drive across the country without stopping, say by using embedded charging lines in the road, now THAT would be a huge improvement and would go a LONG way to killing the Gas powered car.

The horse was not an evolvable technology. The gasoline car was and still is. The horse never had a chance. The EV is definitely evolvable technology, but it is striving to to match the gas car in terms of ease of use. The EV only offers gas free operation. It does not offer more room, or cheaper price, or more range, or more convenience, or more freedom.

So while I get what you are saying about the first most privative cars, by the time the model T was rolling around the horse was quickly on its way out. The only thing that will end the reign of the Gas car is a destruction of its infrastructure.
Aren't you a NASA engineer? Use your imagination man. Picture an EV car that's shaped like a small mini van, can drive itself, and wirelessly charges at your house and office. All technology that exists today but isn't in the marketplace yet. In the morning you get in your car, tell it you want to go to work, then sit back and watch the news/drink coffee/work while you are silently whisked away to work in something as comfortable as your living room. You never have to think about filling up your car or plugging it in and maintenance is minimal and mostly done remotely. Compare that to the same car with a gas motor. Now you have to stop at the gas station again and probably fill it yourself, you still need oil changes and what not, and it's probably less reliable. What's the advantage of the gas car? It can go on longer trips, unless of course you have wirelessly charging interstates which can already do now too if we want. Other than that?
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Old 02-22-2013, 01:32 PM   #42
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I probably do not think of that because not having to drive to work sounds like the most horrible morning ever. Not having to be engaged with the car is the WORST thing that can happen.

You see the reason we calmly butt heads on the internet is because we have two totally different ideals of what a great car is.

You want to the car to be a useful appliance that makes your life easier to some degree and takes all the work out of driving, and allows you do everything BUT drive in the morning. You see the EV as giving you these freedoms. I understand that now and I can respect that. It explains why you see the glass half full with EV.

You see all the advantages, or things you percieve as advantages as good things, but to me not driving or interacting with a car is the OPPOSITE of what I want.

You see, I want to physically start the car, shift my own gears, turn the wheel and have the car respond to what I want. I ENJOY driving. I love the feeling it gives me. It is liberating. I can drink my coffee and read my paper before I get in my car. My car is my chariot, my companion, my friend. We go on adventures together. We rip along with the windows down.

I have enough time to think about work when I get to work. When I drive I am only thinking of driving. My advantages are your disadvantages. And your advantages are my disadvantages.

Come to think of it, we do not butt heads really since we are just arguing different likes. I do not really think you are wrong about anything, despite how I come across. I now realize you just see things from a different point of view. Which is fine, as Obione Kenobi said, "a great many things in life depend on your point of view."

I commend you on being passionate about cars! I am too, just from a differnt angle. I think there is room for both of us on the highway.

While you are drinking you coffee in sublime comfort, that crazy hoon in a datsun that roared by you laughing was me. I will wave to you buddy!
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Old 02-22-2013, 01:45 PM   #43
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Obione? OBIONE?

You are dead to me.
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Old 02-22-2013, 01:50 PM   #44
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I think it's hard to argue that's not the future of cars, at least in major cities. I enjoy driving as well but sitting in my GTO in LA traffic every morning isn't exactly blood pumping. That are plenty of people who agree with me on that. Also keep in mind cities like LA will probably get automated carpool lanes as well, so your commute will be more serene and quicker. I hope I'll always have a second car to play around with but the appeal of an automated EV will be pretty widespread IMO. The younger generation is already less interested in cars.

They'll coexist for a long while but it's pretty easy to envision a future where EVs are more popular than gas cars. But don't worry it will be a really really long time before an EV becomes practical for someone living in a rural area. So you'll still have plenty of choices.

Last edited by JC; 02-22-2013 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 02-22-2013, 01:54 PM   #45
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... but to me not driving or interacting with a car is the OPPOSITE of what I want.

You see, I want to physically start the car, shift my own gears, turn the wheel and have the car respond to what I want. I ENJOY driving. I love the feeling it gives me. It is liberating. I can drink my coffee and read my paper before I get in my car. My car is my chariot, my companion, my friend. We go on adventures together. We rip along with the windows down.

I have enough time to think about work when I get to work. When I drive I am only thinking of driving. My advantages are your disadvantages. And your advantages are my disadvantages.
^ Absolutely nothing wrong with that. God forbid the market moves in such a way that there are no new cars that fill that niche. Where I differ in opinion from you it seems is that I don't see research in electric cars as necessarily moving toward wiping the ICE powered fun cars out. I also think with proper investment in R&D EVs could eventually out perform their more directly fossil powered counterparts.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:00 PM   #46
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^ Absolutely nothing wrong with that. God forbid the market moves in such a way that there are no new cars that fill that niche. Where I differ in opinion from you it seems is that I don't see research in electric cars as necessarily moving toward wiping the ICE powered fun cars out. I also think with proper investment in R&D EVs could eventually out perform their more directly fossil powered counterparts.
If anything I think more ICE powered fun cars will be around. They'll be a time when people who want an appliance choose a Camry Hybrid/EV over an ICE almost every time. But an EV supercar will never have the drama of a Lambo burbling up to a black tie event.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:06 PM   #47
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Obione? OBIONE?

You are dead to me.
Mistakes I have made

forgiveness I must ask...
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:30 PM   #48
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If anything I think more ICE powered fun cars will be around. They'll be a time when people who want an appliance choose a Camry Hybrid/EV over an ICE almost every time. But an EV supercar will never have the drama of a Lambo burbling up to a black tie event.
Very true. Ideal scenario for me: Fun/ fast EV for a DD and a collection of ICE powered track/ sunday fun cars.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:41 PM   #49
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^^^^ I could buy into this train of thought...

One day.
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Old 02-22-2013, 03:15 PM   #50
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You see, I want to physically start the car
Uh huh:

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