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Old 02-20-2013, 11:33 PM   #1
OC_Nooby
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Default Dismantled my Built EJ257 SB. Doesn't look good.

Hey guys,

So I finally got around to installing my hoist, removing the motor and dismantling it.

The block has 6k miles on it with low compression across the board and highish leak down values. I never had any funny colors in my oil or any metal either. The motor did not spin any rod bearings. I took it apart because of the compression/leak down and oil consumption.

So far I have pictures of each cylinder/piston. Cylinder 3/4 are the ones that had the lower compression. On cylinder 2/3/4 you can see these black marks near the top of the cylinder wall. Like it lost compression once it reached TDC in certain spots. Cylinder 4 tops it. Not only does it have the same black marks near the top of the cylinder but when you spin the crank by hand oil is left on the cylinder wall. Non of the other cylinders show this.

So basically:

Cylinder 4 Pistons goes up, then as I turn the crank to make the piston go down it leaves oil behind on the wall as seen in the pictures. Same location all the time.

I'll be getting a bore gauge and mic this Friday and measuring everything up. This motor was apparently torque plated (as I requested) but I'll see if the cylinders are out of round and if they did a proper job. I appreciate any feedback!

Pistons are labelled in every picture (should be):

http://s734.beta.photobucket.com/use...tml?sort=3&o=0
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:51 AM   #2
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Can't tell good from the pics but, is ther any crosshatching visible? If the crosshatching had to shallow an angle or if there was no crosshatching done to the cylinders, the rings will prematurely wear out. Since its multple cylinders and it happened to all of them around the same time, I bet that's what your problem is. Or, the piston rings were installed wrong or the wrong piston rings were installed all together.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:50 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastblueufo View Post
Can't tell good from the pics but, is ther any crosshatching visible? If the crosshatching had to shallow an angle or if there was no crosshatching done to the cylinders, the rings will prematurely wear out. Since its multple cylinders and it happened to all of them around the same time, I bet that's what your problem is. Or, the piston rings were installed wrong or the wrong piston rings were installed all together.
Went from stock pistons to 99.75 CP Pistons. Yes you can still see the cross hatch marks on all cylinders. New rings/pistons where used with a bore/hone/torque plate (I asked but doubt this happened, torque plate that is).

I'm thinking cylinder 4 is bored out slightly to much or I have an issue with the oil ring as non of the other cylinders leave oil on the walls. But I'm new to this so I could be bsing.

Last edited by OC_Nooby; 02-21-2013 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:11 PM   #4
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I'm guessing the rings on #4 were not installed right and/or damaged. I doubt a machine shop not using a tq plate is what caused the damage.

Take the pistons out and take a good look at the rings.

Who built it?
do you have a dial bore gauge? If not I got one and could check the block out for ya if your by SD
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:40 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul View Post
I'm guessing the rings on #4 were not installed right and/or damaged. I doubt a machine shop not using a tq plate is what caused the damage.

Take the pistons out and take a good look at the rings.

Who built it?
do you have a dial bore gauge? If not I got one and could check the block out for ya if your by SD
Thanks for the offer. Im in Canada Ontario

I'll be getting the bore gauge this friday along with a mic to check everything out.

I just have to get some hex bits to get through the access holes and I'll be able to pull out the pistons.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:11 PM   #6
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ok you should fill out your profile to make things easier
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:26 PM   #7
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just curious, but what kind of break in did you do on this motor?
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:43 PM   #8
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I had a motor do something identical to what this sounds like to me in 09 ended up being poor machine work.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:00 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bebesito21 View Post
just curious, but what kind of break in did you do on this motor?
Start the car with 5w30 non synthetic, ran it at 2k rpm with some blips to 2.5k. Ran for 10-15 minutes. Changed oil again with 5w30 non synthetic. Lots of engine breaking and mild boost 5-10psi ATP GT3076R turbo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2BadBeast View Post
I had a motor do something identical to what this sounds like to me in 09 ended up being poor machine work.
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Old 02-23-2013, 01:33 PM   #10
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Have you checked the PtW clearance? Does it sound like a tractor when it's cold? I'm assuming you used new rings? If you had someone else build this, I would take it to them!
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Old 02-23-2013, 04:45 PM   #11
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New pistons, new rings, new crank, new bearings, bore, honed and torque plated (I doubt). 99.75 sized pistons.

My main question is why is there black marks near the top of the cylinder wall? Looks like something was burning and left the black marks on the wall.

Also I did some measuring and averaging on cylinder 4 and cylinder 2 for reference.

Last edited by OC_Nooby; 03-05-2013 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 02-23-2013, 04:48 PM   #12
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I'll bring the block to the shop to show them that cylinder 4 is not scraping the oil off the wall. They will blames something and say it isn't there fault and bs me, I will swear at them and call it a day.

I think the block was built very poorly and for $1600 my ass hurts.
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Old 02-23-2013, 04:50 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turd Nugget View Post
Have you checked the PtW clearance? Does it sound like a tractor when it's cold? I'm assuming you used new rings? If you had someone else build this, I would take it to them!
You could hear it slap while at temperature. I really want to pull the pistons out and measure the ring gap but want to show them there **** up first.
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Old 02-23-2013, 05:16 PM   #14
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Just thinking out loud, YMMV.

PIc #15 does the crosshatch look weird or is that just the pic? Pic #11, is that a high/low spot below the oil drip but above the piston? Several of the pics you see the up/down streaks, if that was an old two stroke mx bike I'd think the rings were starting to catch on a port, but in those pics they seem very light and maybe nothing more than some debris caught on the cylinder wall from dismantling? The area between the top of the cylinder and rings at tdc, is it me or do some of them look different?
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Old 02-23-2013, 05:45 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k mier View Post
Just thinking out loud, YMMV.

PIc #15 does the crosshatch look weird or is that just the pic? Pic #11, is that a high/low spot below the oil drip but above the piston? Several of the pics you see the up/down streaks, if that was an old two stroke mx bike I'd think the rings were starting to catch on a port, but in those pics they seem very light and maybe nothing more than some debris caught on the cylinder wall from dismantling? The area between the top of the cylinder and rings at tdc, is it me or do some of them look different?
#15 is just the picture, #11 I rotated the crank so the piston was all the way up then as the piston went down I left it there for a sec, then continued to rotate the crank and the piston left a line of oil. Does that answer the question?
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Old 02-23-2013, 06:10 PM   #16
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Makes sense.
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Old 02-23-2013, 07:20 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC_Nooby View Post
New pistons, new rings, new crank, new bearings, bore, honed and torque plated (I doubt). 99.75 sized pistons.

My main question is why is there black marks near the top of the cylinder wall? Looks like something was burning and left the black marks on the wall.

Also I did some measuring and averaging on cylinder 4 and cylinder 2 for reference.

I took 7 measurements then put the gauge at 90 from the previous spot. So it formed a + if you will.

On cylinder 4:

99.73346mm and 99.76177mm

Cylinder 2:

99.7614mm and 99.67577mm

I'm using a telescoping gauge and micrometer. Micrometer is calibrated. I'm not sure how accurate the telescoping gauge is but I took the average of the values I got that where within a close range. I did measure some values that where out of whack so I ommited those. I got 7 values that where within a certain tolerance then averaged those. I measured 1 inch below the top of the cylinder wall.

If they used a torque plate I'm sure my values would be messed up a little?
Idk what you're measuring with but there's no way you're measuring 5 decimal places in mm. Won't even be measuring accurately at 4 places.

Also do you have your own torque plate? It will be impossible to tell if the cylinders were machined round without one. I've never had to tear an engine down that got torque played to see if its still round. Maybe someone like Dom at Maxwell could tell you if they are typically still round after heat cycles and torque cycles etc. hopefully they would be but they might not.

Last edited by kakarot09; 02-23-2013 at 08:00 PM.
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Old 02-23-2013, 08:24 PM   #18
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Yah, my measurements are useless without a torque plate. I'll bring the motor back to the machine shop and see what they measure.

What constitutes out of round?
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Old 02-23-2013, 08:30 PM   #19
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the FSM says out-of-round limit is .002 in.
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Old 02-23-2013, 08:48 PM   #20
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Where did you see .002" out of round? Maybe I'm missing it as a limit somewhere idk I can't find that number and the manual is somewhat not intuitive sometimes. The manuals I have say the standard for out of round is .0004"
The thing is I've seen a .0002 change just torquing and untorquing and retorquing a torque plate on. So idk how it will be after running the engine. And the oem method is no torque plate.

Different people have different specs for out of round. Prior to assembling the engine I would like it to be .0004" or less.
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Old 02-23-2013, 11:55 PM   #21
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Its page 110 on my DVD


Standard is .0004" like you said and I agree the FSM can be a pain to find stuff sometimes.

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Old 02-24-2013, 02:09 AM   #22
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So if and when I bring them the block and get them to take measurements how should I ask them to do so?
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:34 AM   #23
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The point of a torque plate is to simulate the stresses the block will see during final assembly. So you want them to machine the block with the torque plate bolted on at the same torque with the same lube you'd use for final assembly of the engine. This is also how you should have the measurements checked. I had to have this same talk with a machine shop recently. Very frustrating since they're supposed to be the experts.
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:32 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kakarot09 View Post
The point of a torque plate is to simulate the stresses the block will see during final assembly. So you want them to machine the block with the torque plate bolted on at the same torque with the same lube you'd use for final assembly of the engine. This is also how you should have the measurements checked. I had to have this same talk with a machine shop recently. Very frustrating since they're supposed to be the experts.
Thanks, what about measurements to check if the cylinders are oval? Just take 2 measurements one perpendicular to the other?

I feel this machine shop will tell me the torque plate does nothing and try to bs me even though I specifically asked to have it torque plated.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:33 PM   #25
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In my experience and I believe it was shown in another thread started by team scream about the torque plates he sells also, the bore distorts around .001" with a torque plate installed. It also gets slightly larger. You should do at least two measurements perpendicular to each other at the top of the cylinders. From what I've seen, the further down the bore you go the less effect the torque plate has. Usually I measure 6 places. I measure top bottom and middle and I do two directions. The wrist pin hole is in the way of the bottom measurement I would take so I just go to the side of it.

What sort of instructions did you leave for the torque plates? Without knowing your setup who knows what they did. A local machine shop just did 70 ft lbs with some bolts they had even though I dropped off arp studs, nuts, lube, and written as well as verbal instructions.
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