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Old 02-21-2013, 12:27 AM   #1
ezil71
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Default On bumpstops with wagon pinks?

I've been trying to figure out for quite a while why my rear suspension is bouncing, not on the springs, but the stops from what I can tell.

I have a bugeye wagon with sti pink wagon springs on dspecs with group N top hats in the rear.

I had the same issue with RCE wagons and though by switching to the pinks I'd gain some bump travel, but no luck.

I put ground control stops in with the pinks, which should be short enough.

I've tried running the dspecs really stiff 3, to really soft, 7.5 and the problem is there no matter the setting, which is why I think I must be on the stops.

I've tried adjusting my whiteline rear bar (22mm adjustable), with no change.

I've tried removing botox bolts - no change.

From what I understand, I shouldn't be near the stops, but I can't think of any other reason.

Anyone have a similar experience or any insight? The fronts feel great, no issues at all and I thought there was less travel available up front?

Thanks for any advice
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:44 AM   #2
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how long are the bumpstops???

i just re-did my suspension and replaced my stops and they are pretty short....2" - 2 1/2" maybe.....

and no problems

if you worked at it, you could likely trim their length in situ...
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:07 AM   #3
ezil71
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I have the soft progressive 19-24mm stops from here:

http://www.ground-control-store.com/...tion.php/II=10


I didn't measure them, but they are much shorter than stock, I'd guess pretty close to 2-2.5"

I might try cutting them down, did that with the TIC ones before that had on my RCE wagons.

I'm just confused because I thought the fronts were usually the problem on the wagos?

Heck, I should have moved over to h techs rather than the pinks because I hate the gap, even with pinks.

Would a coilover like the kw v1's give more travel? I don't mind a stiff riding car, just hate the bounce!

Last edited by ezil71; 02-21-2013 at 01:13 AM.
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Old 02-21-2013, 02:03 AM   #4
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they may not be firm enough and you are squishing them

that's weird....

and i dont run the same setting on the dspecs, front and rear...that is a bad idea and has caused weird issues for me in the past....im usually 3/4 to one full turn differen front to rear
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:03 PM   #5
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Are you sure you are on the bumpstops and do not have a binding issue, or have a rotated sway bar.

All the bolts should have been torqued under normal load (the cars weight on the suspension). Also be sure they are not over torqued.

Look at your rear sway bar with the car on the ground. Once in a very blue moon they will rotate or flip. You will see the bar resting on your lateral links. If you drive with this condition, the sway bar will break one or both of the links.

Can you take a picture of how the rear sits? Take a phone pic with your hand stuffed up there so we can see how the springs sit.
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:33 PM   #6
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the bar isn't flipped, I've tried changing the bar softer/firmer with no luck

I've done a TON of testing with setting front vs rear and I agree, usually I'm 1 to as much as 3 turns different depending (the softer the setting in front, the more the difference to the rear)

Right now I'm at 3 1/4 front and 4 1/2 rear and the feel is pretty even except for the stops hitting - If I go much firmer in the back there is basically no absorbing of impacts at all after less than 4.

Could there be something else that could cause it? the group N tops are pretty new, the struts are just a couple years old with not that many miles

Is it an issue of dspecs on a wagon? I know they are sedan struts, but I though the only issue there was camber

My alignment is good, -1.4 front, -1 rear with zero toe

wheels are well balanced, even tested with my other set, same issue

Same thing happened on the RCE's, so it isn't the springs. I assume there is no chance the front and rear struts are swapped, but I'll double check part numbers - they originally came from TIC, so I suspect that isn't a problem.

Scotty - what do you run your stock springs at f/r?
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Old 02-21-2013, 07:51 PM   #7
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Stupid question, are one or both of the struts seized? This is only happening in the rear correct?

Did you ever try moving the suspension without the struts attached, to check for binding?
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:39 PM   #8
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Yes, only in the rear. I don't know how to check if one is seized? It does feel like the rear struts don't respond as well with rebound as the fronts, but I assume that is because the springs aren't as strong?

If one is seized, is there anything that can be done? Spray down with grease or something?

When you say moving the suspension without the struts attached do you mean jacking up the knuckle?

I did try spraying some white lithium grease on some of the bushings, just to see if it would help. I also regreased my swaybar bushings completely.

When you say binding, do you mean coil bind? I've not seen it any time I've looked, and I didn't see any evidence of it (when I swapped the RCE's for the pinks)

My car is pretty clean, no rust issues at all.

If I jack up the back and measure hub to fender they are even. Slightly different under load, but not by much and I've seen that is a common issue.
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:07 AM   #9
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did you install or tighten any bushing or bushing attach points in the suspension??

overtightening these or tightening them with the suspension at droop can lead to this kind of thing too
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:10 PM   #10
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I didn't, but I did have an alignment done so who knows. I would think not since it was on a rack. I had crappy alignment a few months ago so I had it redone about 2 weeks ago. The issues preceded those.

The only thing I've done was to install, and remove, botox bolts. Any adjustments to my swaybars were with the car on the ground.

I did the rear diff bushings a while ago, but I'm fairly sure that was all done on the ground too.
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:20 PM   #11
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So I'm still at a loss on this one.

I just re-measured the rears and I'm at 13.25 and 13.625 in the rear (from center hub to the fender liner, not the metal)

That seems too low for the pinks? I thought it was springs that determined height, shouldn't I be at like 14" in the rear on the wagon pinks?
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ezil71 View Post
I didn't, but I did have an alignment done so who knows. I would think not since it was on a rack. I had crappy alignment a few months ago so I had it redone about 2 weeks ago. The issues preceded those.

The only thing I've done was to install, and remove, botox bolts. Any adjustments to my swaybars were with the car on the ground.

I did the rear diff bushings a while ago, but I'm fairly sure that was all done on the ground too.

man....ya got gremlins....gizmo and his boiz are all up in there havin a TIME
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Old 02-25-2013, 06:58 AM   #13
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There is a lot of travel in the rear, something must be binding.
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:16 PM   #14
ezil71
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But why the heck would I be so much lower than what wagon pinks are supposed to be?

Does the strut contribute much to the height, or is it all spring?

I know there is a lot of droop travel, but there is next to no bump travel, not at 13.24 hub to fender!
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:14 PM   #15
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Did the RCE springs sit lower as well?
Perhaps the STI springs were mislabeled.
Did you get the suspension parts new or used?

It might be time to bite the bullet and take the springs off. Check the struts for binding. Measure the springs free hight. And while the struts are off you can check for binding with the rest of the suspension components.
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Old 02-26-2013, 02:52 PM   #16
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Yeah the RCE's were low too. I got the STI Pinks from a subarugenuine parts new and the despec setup was new from TiC (with the RCE's) when I got them.

I'm fairly certain it isn't the springs.

I don't think the dspecs are blown, since my adjustments still feel like they work as expected.

The only thing I can think of is that the despecs are either somehow the wrong part, or the perches are somehow lower than they should be?

The top hats were new group N's when I got the RCE's.

I'm thinking I need to just ditch them and go to ST Coilovers.

Does anyone have a general comparison to how the ST or KWv1 rides vs the despecs? (like ST's feel like Dspecs set at 3 for example).

I really like the way the pinks ride where I have them set, if only they were high enough in the back and didn't have such gap up front!

How do I tell if struts are binding? If they are, can you fix them, or would I need to replace them?

Thanks
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:43 PM   #17
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If you disassemble the strut, you should be able to actuate the damper by hand.

Just triple check you have the right struts in the rear- you shouldn't be that low.
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Old 02-26-2013, 04:21 PM   #18
Bikelok
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Another stupid question, are you using 04-07 Group-N rear top hats and not 02-03 top hats with the 04-07 STI pink springs? Are you using 921 spacers too?

Can you post any pictures at all?

If and when you do disassemble the rear, don't forget to check for binding with the rest of the components. Make sure you have full movement available.

Your combination of D-Spec and STI pinks should be great for a road car. The ST or KW v1 coilovers are not junk, but I feel they are a step down from where you are (or should be).

I feel you should really sort out what you have and give it a proper try after its working well.
You might be tossing money away when you don't have too.
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Old 02-26-2013, 04:44 PM   #19
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ezil71, when you say "bounce" what do you mean?

In my experience whenever the suspension bottomed out to the bump stop (either on rallyx or due to a blown strut) you would hear a WHUMP! and feel it like someone whacked the chassis inside somewhere with a giant wooden/rubber mallet hard. However, there was no significant "bounce".

In rallyx, there might be a jarring of the whole car as some bump or berm on the ground bottoms out the suspension and then the whole car gets jolted in the "you can't go this way" manner. Like it gets thrown because of the bump on the road. Or is this what you mean by bounce? (I usually think of bounce as underdamped spring going over uneven surfaces and the passengers jaws go "yuyuyuyuyuyuy")

Has anyone viewed the suspension from outside the car when someone is driving the car and it bottoms out?

I'm just exploring other possibilities because non of the first steps listed above seem to be identifying the problem. I have a really similar setup as you (wagon/pinks/adjustable struts) and I haven't experienced significant bottoming out.
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:44 PM   #20
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It is more like a jarring than bounce, yes. Even going down the freeway there is an oscillation - independent of how the dspecs are set.

Based on the heights and how it feels, I'm pretty certain I'm on the stops.

Yep - I have com c's in front and group n 04 tophats rear and the spacers

Is it possible the front and rear struts are reversed? Would that even work?

I'll get part/serial numbers when I can get a chance, I'm wondering if there is any chance I somehow got the wrong ones?
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:23 PM   #21
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Swapping front back totally would not work.

Got pics of your rise height and peering into the suspension?
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:38 AM   #22
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Probably a stupid question, but is it correct that in the rear, there is nothing else between the spring and the tophat?

Just trying to think of any other way height would be off.
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:02 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ezil71 View Post
Probably a stupid question, but is it correct that in the rear, there is nothing else between the spring and the tophat?

Just trying to think of any other way height would be off.
That's right. Spring directly on the hat.

Front has the upper perch so it can pivot on the conical washer to the swivel bearing on the top hat.

Just for you I just did a quick and dirt measurement of my rear height (hub to fender, not including liner).

I'm on SPT Wagon pinks with groupN rear tip hats, comC fronts

Driver rear: 13 3/4"
Passenger rear: 13 7/8"

Shorten by about 1/4" for the liner.
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:28 AM   #24
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Bad dspecs if same thing happened to the RCEs?
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Old 03-04-2013, 07:09 PM   #25
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Could be bad dspecs, I'm going to pull them in a couple weeks and put in some temp struts/springs to see if I can get them looked at under warranty.
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