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Old 02-23-2013, 08:59 AM   #51
fancyfootwork15
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What's interesting is that BMWs M division is going all manual.
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Old 02-23-2013, 09:01 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Yes all of that is true if you are a ham fisted moron. Do you wonder why people with manuals come off as claiming to have more skill. These things require a tiny bit of finesse to avoid. I mean a tiny bit. These skills are what make driving enjoyable (IMHO). They are not rocket science, but they do require attention to what you are doing. Let me say that again. They REQUIRE attention to what you are doing. You are involved. You are an active participant in making the car go other than mashing the go pedal.

What you are saying is that a manual requires thought and skill from the driver and for that it is a bad thing? We come from two opposite ends of the spectrum here. I want to think for myself, and make decisions, about what I want my car to do. My Datsun is a beautiful example of this. To some extent my VW as well, although it is very much 'monitored'

I can program a robot to paint a picasso perfectly every time. But it would lack that human touch, and that little bit of imperfection that makes it special.

The decision desire a manual is an emotional one for sure.
The decision to offer one or not comes down to the decision to build cars that are faster or cars that are more involving. Since you cannot easily put a metric on 'fun and involving' and you can put on one Ring times and 0-60 PDK have grown in popularity.
While I like manuals, It's subjective to say it is more fun than a automated one. I have never driven a PDK, but it's gotta be that good for the majority to prefer it over a manual. The buyers feel it's more fun than a manual.

Manuals might be a little more engaging, but the current automated transmissions are sooo good (reliability, fuel efficiency, engagement,...) that manuals are unnecessary but only to purists.

I'm sure some old school purist writers still prefer a typewriter (goes for some good money on ebay) where each keystroke actually stamp out the characters. Almost everyone just use computers now without even thinking about purchasing a typewriter. The Computers also brought new innovation and fun.

I think this relates to automated transmissions. It brings a new era/meaning in engagement and fun factor. Because we are used to manuals, will take some time to adjust.

But I still hope to pick up a 997 GT3 someday.

Last edited by 4wdwrx; 02-23-2013 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 02-23-2013, 09:16 AM   #53
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Quoted for blind ignorance. In 10 years all the Sti has done, in regards to increased performance, is add nifty buttons and vdc? And little bits of suspension pieces? It has the same exact power train since 2004. I'm sure you will say, but it has a new vf666 turbo and yada yada...

You are an absolute fantastic salesman. You make G. Cardone proud. I bet you even have his 85 closes cd.

You missed my point entirely. He makes it sound like they went backwards. They didn't. The car still sells fantastically. Wonder why.
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Old 02-23-2013, 09:19 AM   #54
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You are an absolute fantastic salesman. You make G. Cardone proud. I bet you even have his 85 closes cd.

And keep in mind. I am not a commissioned "salesperson". My role at the dealership has many facets. Shoot, a lot of times I do "lot boy" duties. Definitely not going to right a book here of what I actually do there. And my main job is firefighting. Only at the dealer on my off time.
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Old 02-23-2013, 09:30 AM   #55
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You missed my point entirely. He makes it sound like they went backwards. They didn't. The car still sells fantastically. Wonder why.
Because the people who can actually buy from Porsche don't buy the manuals as much as they buy the automatics. Ironically the people who can't buy from Porsche want the manuals.

;D I love saying that.
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Old 02-23-2013, 09:34 AM   #56
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Because the people who can actually buy from Porsche don't buy the manuals as much as they buy the automatics. Ironically the people who can't buy from Porsche want the manuals.

;D I love saying that.

We were talking about the STI.
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Old 02-23-2013, 09:38 AM   #57
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We were talking about the STI.
I needed an opening to say what needed to be said in a thread about Porsche nixing the manual. You were wide open.
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Old 02-23-2013, 09:44 AM   #58
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These statements are entertaining to me. The car has gotten faster since it came out. The 06 got a couple tweaks that made it marginally faster. The 08's sport VDC and SI Drive made it faster than previous(so what if it was softer, I say), and the 11's suspension upgrade made it even faster and became the fastest STI they ever made(and took away that softness). Your just mad it hasn't made leaps and bounds over 10 years(understandably). Just don't make it sound like it went backwards.
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You missed my point entirely. He makes it sound like they went backwards. They didn't. The car still sells fantastically. Wonder why.

Faster? Barely. Just look at the lap times, only minor improvements over 10yrs. It's time to stop drinking the kool aid they sell you, the STi has been stagnant for 10yrs. That's a fact. They gained 150lbs over 10yrs......which to be fair is not that much compared to what some have gained.....but they didn't add any power over 10yrs. Also, don't forget the new tires are better, which helps with lap times

Whether or not it still sells well is irrelevant in this discussion. I also never said they went backwards, but that they have become a "barge". Subaru screwed up by wasting tons of money on a new body style every 2yrs, money that could have gone into RD for the engine.

What's amusing, is that the regular WRX saw a HUGE improvement over the last 10yrs. It's lap times plummeted, more displacement/power etc etc. But they let the STi rest on it's laurels, that's lazy.

Take a look at the Ring lap times. Over 10yrs they only dropped 10sec at the Ring. Porsche? They dropped 30sec's from the 911 Carrera S time. It's simple, add power, remove weight and improve aero/suspension. And don't waste time/money on endless body changes.

Look at Ford/Chevy who have dramatically improved their cars. Meanwhile the STi is still prone to terminal understeer and needs more power. The WRX and STi came to the US and woke up Ford/Chevy who were guilty of being stagnant for a long time. Question is, now that they (Ford/Chevy) picked up their game, when will Subaru wake and realize they've been left in the dust.

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Old 02-23-2013, 10:36 AM   #59
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Time to buy used before prices skyrocket!


Or everyone really is fat and lazy and we can scoop up manual 911s for the cheap.



Ha.
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Old 02-23-2013, 10:51 AM   #60
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Saying the STI did not gain power is not technically true

The When they 'adjusted' the way HP was calculated the STI dropped from 300 HP for one model year. They next model year they upped it back to 300 if I recall.
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Old 02-23-2013, 10:52 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by LIQUIDSK8S View Post
Faster? Barely. Just look at the lap times, only minor improvements over 10yrs. It's time to stop drinking the kool aid they sell you, the STi has been stagnant for 10yrs. That's a fact. They gained 150lbs over 10yrs......which to be fair is not that much compared to what some have gained.....but they didn't add any power over 10yrs.

Whether or not it still sells well is irrelevant in this discussion. I also never said they went backwards, but that they have become a "barge". Subaru screwed up by wasting tons of money on a new body style every 2yrs, money that could have gone into RD for the engine.

What's amusing, is that the regular WRX saw a HUGE improvement over the last 10yrs. It's lap times plummeted, more displacement/power etc etc. But they let the STi rest on it's laurels, that's lazy.

Take a look at the Ring lap times. Over 10yrs they only dropped 10sec at the Ring. Porsche? They dropped 30sec's from the 911 Carrera S time. It's simple, add power, remove weight and improve aero/suspension. And don't waste time/money on endless body changes.

Look at Ford/Chevy who have dramatically improved their cars. Meanwhile the STi is still prone to terminal understeer and needs more power. The WRX and STi came to the US and woke up Ford/Chevy who were guilty of being stagnant for a long time. Question is, now that they (Ford/Chevy) picked up their game, when will Subaru wake and realize they've been left in the dust.

For that last sentence, the answer is Jan/Feb of next year.

You didn't really compare what Subaru has done to it's car to what Porsche has done to theirs, did you?

The Subaru isn't meant to compete with the Ford/Chevy anyway. Subaru doesn't build the WRX/STI for the enthusiast. They build it for a family oriented person who wants fun. You going to buy a Mustang/Camaro to haul your family around?......Really?

It was fun to say "my STi beat your Mustang"(which I didn't) back in the day, but I EXPECT something with twice the cylinders to be faster. You wanna talk price? Yes, it sucks Subaru couldn't be as cheap as a Mustang; but, Subaru is also a MUCH smaller company with not much profit margin on those cars. Should they build them here to help with that? I think so, but that is another HUGE cost for the company. I think they should step up or they will be hampered by it.

The fact that it is still selling IS relevant. You are saying Subaru screwed up and are basically not building a car that is worth it. Apparently there are many people out there that disagree with you. And to a company who wants to make money, that is all that matters. $$$$$. The reason I think it has taken this long is that it has taken a good bit of R&D to get to that next level that you want; which will come next year.

I drink the kool-aid because the kool-aid is good. I don't necessarily HAVE to have a Subaru. It's just there isn't anything out there that has swayed me away yet. There are some very nice things out there, but considering everything, it just isn't there. AWD is a MUST with me and for the price, you can't beat Subaru's system.


And technically Subaru has added 12hp to the STI over 10 years...
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Old 02-23-2013, 10:52 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by LIQUIDSK8S View Post

Faster? Barely. Just look at the lap times, only minor improvements over 10yrs. It's time to stop drinking the kool aid they sell you, the STi has been stagnant for 10yrs. That's a fact. They gained 150lbs over 10yrs......which to be fair is not that much compared to what some have gained.....but they didn't add any power over 10yrs. Also, don't forget the new tires are better, which helps with lap times

Whether or not it still sells well is irrelevant in this discussion. I also never said they went backwards, but that they have become a "barge". Subaru screwed up by wasting tons of money on a new body style every 2yrs, money that could have gone into RD for the engine.

What's amusing, is that the regular WRX saw a HUGE improvement over the last 10yrs. It's lap times plummeted, more displacement/power etc etc. But they let the STi rest on it's laurels, that's lazy.

Take a look at the Ring lap times. Over 10yrs they only dropped 10sec at the Ring. Porsche? They dropped 30sec's from the 911 Carrera S time. It's simple, add power, remove weight and improve aero/suspension. And don't waste time/money on endless body changes.

Look at Ford/Chevy who have dramatically improved their cars. Meanwhile the STi is still prone to terminal understeer and needs more power. The WRX and STi came to the US and woke up Ford/Chevy who were guilty of being stagnant for a long time. Question is, now that they (Ford/Chevy) picked up their game, when will Subaru wake and realize they've been left in the dust.
Completely agree with this. Having a new wrx I can say there is a huge difference between newer/older. I personally feel that you get more bang for the buck with the newer wrxs, than sti's. This is my own personal opinion, so you may have different thoughts. Powertrain is essentially identical. Much nicer transmission, suspension which the majority of us will change anyhow, and brakes.

Until they do something relatively substantial with the sti, I'll personally opt for the wrx.
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Old 02-23-2013, 10:54 AM   #63
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Saying the STI did not gain power is not technically true

The When they 'adjusted' the way HP was calculated the STI dropped from 300 HP for one model year. They next model year they upped it back to 300 if I recall.

If I could only type just that much faster....... ONE minute!!
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Old 02-23-2013, 11:22 AM   #64
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That doesn't change anything. You still can't shift as fast as a dual-clutch box which already has the next gear pre-engaged. Hell, you can't shift as fast as a single clutch box that's using hydraulic or electric actuators to move the forks.


You don't need a clutch to shift with a traditional manual for that matter, once moving. Although I wouldn't recommend it...(unless it's a dogbox, of course).


What you need to cure the problem is a return to driving as a romantic thing, a sport, something to be enjoyed. Hard to do with traffic/traffic laws today...

And hard to do with people like you out there, knocking cars that try to get back to driving roots, because they're not fast enough for you.
What are you smoking... I'm pretty sure these shifts are as fast as could possibly be and you still have direct control over them...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmJH84FnQa8
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Old 02-23-2013, 11:30 AM   #65
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Stalling. ECU controlled will remove human error. You can also make the argument you never have to remove your hands from the wheel and you only have to concentrate on 2 pedals instead of 3.
I'll argue that concentrating on 3 pedals makes driving safer. When you're driving a manual it's hard to get distracted and text/make phone calls/play with radio because you need to think about what you're doing. Concentrating on my driving makes me feel more alert to my driving, maybe it's just me.
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Old 02-23-2013, 11:49 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Saying the STI did not gain power is not technically true

The When they 'adjusted' the way HP was calculated the STI dropped from 300 HP for one model year. They next model year they upped it back to 300 if I recall.
The numbers game is deceptive. But at the end of the day, the 2011 STi puts down the same whp as a 2004. Look at the dyno graphs, they both are around 250hp.

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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
For that last sentence, the answer is Jan/Feb of next year.
Doubtful, I expect yet another minor change while wasting money on a new body. Power output won't change by much if at all.

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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
You didn't really compare what Subaru has done to it's car to what Porsche has done to theirs, did you?
Wow..... so you missed the point? The point being that other manufacturers have made huge improvements over 10yrs. You are full of retard.

My point would have been silly if I said "the new 991 does X lap time, why cant the STi do X lap time as well" But that's not what I said, I was showing the difference in improvement over a decade. This is ENTIRELY relevant.

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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
The Subaru isn't meant to compete with the Ford/Chevy anyway. Subaru doesn't build the WRX/STI for the enthusiast. They build it for a family oriented person who wants fun. You going to buy a Mustang/Camaro to haul your family around?......Really?
It might not be meant to, but that's who everyone compares them to. When the STi/WRX first showed up in the US all of the Subaru fans touted how they could hand a Mustang/Camaro it's ass on a road course. But now that the tables have turned "well were not meant to compete against them anyways"

And yes, they do build it for the enthusiast while also grabbing the family guy who wants a fun/performance car that can also carry his family around.

Depends on how big the family is. Married with 1-2 kids? Sure Mustang/Camaro would be fine. I would do the same with a 991.

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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
It was fun to say "my STi beat your Mustang"(which I didn't) back in the day, but I EXPECT something with twice the cylinders to be faster. You wanna talk price? Yes, it sucks Subaru couldn't be as cheap as a Mustang; but, Subaru is also a MUCH smaller company with not much profit margin on those cars. Should they build them here to help with that? I think so, but that is another HUGE cost for the company. I think they should step up or they will be hampered by it.
Well at least we agree with these points. Although regarding more cylinders being faster, it depends on what we are referring to. I'm talking about lap times, where it's more than just power. I think if Subaru had invested in the engine/chassis vs new body styles, they could have seen 330hp+ in the current STi with maybe 100-200lbs less. This and some suspension tweaks would be HUGE for lap times.



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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
The fact that it is still selling IS relevant. You are saying Subaru screwed up and are basically not building a car that is worth it. Apparently there are many people out there that disagree with you. And to a company who wants to make money, that is all that matters. $$$$$. The reason I think it has taken this long is that it has taken a good bit of R&D to get to that next level that you want; which will come next year.
No, no it is not relevant. We are discussing the cars lack of improvement over the last decade, while the company wasted money on silly things. We are not discussing sales. They could sell like hot cakes and the reality is the STi is still stagnant in terms of progression.

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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
I drink the kool-aid because the kool-aid is good. I don't necessarily HAVE to have a Subaru. It's just there isn't anything out there that has swayed me away yet. There are some very nice things out there, but considering everything, it just isn't there. AWD is a MUST with me and for the price, you can't beat Subaru's system.
I would argue the EVO's AWD system is the better setup

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And technically Subaru has added 12hp to the STI over 10 years...
Countless dyno graphs say otherwise
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Old 02-23-2013, 12:44 PM   #67
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I'll argue that concentrating on 3 pedals makes driving safer. When you're driving a manual it's hard to get distracted and text/make phone calls/play with radio because you need to think about what you're doing. Concentrating on my driving makes me feel more alert to my driving, maybe it's just me.

you mean you can't text while driving a manual??

to add to the conversation: manual keeps me more alert/awake during long commutes where there is constant speed changes. That, and the feeling from a perfect 4-3 or 3-2 downshift under hard deceleration makes a 5 spd win/win for me.
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Old 02-23-2013, 01:05 PM   #68
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A few years ago I would have been really sad about this, but it really doesn't matter to me anymore as the newer Porsches just don't enamor me like the older ones. If I buy a Porsche it's going to be 993 or older.

Yeah Porsches are fast and can scoot, can anybody list is "supercar" that isn't? If you want a drivers car, you're not buying something in the 90K price range, that's for sure. You're buying something in the 90K price range to show other people that you can afford the top ****. Manual transmission in not considered top **** to people anymore as its slower, and old tech. It's mainly praised by those of us who value driving pleasure etc.

I'll keep buying MT as long as it's offered on new models, and I don't think it's going away in the 20K-40K bracket for a while.

I sympathize with my fellow MT enthusiasts, but times are changing and we just have to roll with the punches.
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Old 02-23-2013, 01:20 PM   #69
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What are you smoking... I'm pretty sure these shifts are as fast as could possibly be and you still have direct control over them...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmJH84FnQa8
Can you not read? Dual clutch boxes (DSG, etc.) have the next gear engaged before the shift even occurs. The shifts in that video are NOWHERE near as fast as those boxes pull off.

Quote:
Because the alternate clutch pack's gear-sets can be pre-selected[2][4][5] (predictive shifts enabled via the 'unused' section of the gearbox), un-powered time while shifting is avoided[2][5] because the transmission of torque is simply switched from one clutch-pack to the other.[2] This means that the DSG takes only about 8 milliseconds to upshift.[3][4] In comparison, the sequential manual transmission (SMT) in the Ferrari F430 Scuderia takes 60 milliseconds to shift,[18] or 150 milliseconds in the Ferrari Enzo.
And here's your dogbox:

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Shift Quickness
The gearbox contains KAPS Transmissions‘ revolutionary patented dog ring and dog hub technology, which shortens the gear lever movement and greatly improves shift times to as low as 50milliseconds (with our EPS computer).

http://eng.kaps-transmissions.com/pr...l-gearbox.html
8 vs. 50

The shifts in that video are plain and simply slower thanDSG speeds.

Hell, I designed a pneumatic shift setup for use on a sequential transmission in college. The shifts using the pneumatic cylinder were at least 4 times faster than those made using a hand lever for the sequential box (a setup like you posted in your video). We measured them as part of a project. And that was just our crappy setup, using paintball gun parts, a single linear actuator, a couple of solenoids and aluminum paddles.

You simply cannot pull your arm as fast as you can fire the linear actuator with a high pressure source.

It's a wonder you didn't make it through engineering school. 10 seconds of research online would have let you know just how fast the DSG/PDK, etc. shift. Manually-actuated boxes, EVEN SEQUENTIAL DOGBOXES, simply cannot match them.



All that aside, I can tell you've never driven a sequential dogbox before. There's about 100 other reasons it isn't even remotely an option for a production car, or suitable for regular street use.

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Old 02-23-2013, 02:25 PM   #70
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Man, are you guys really arguing over whether 50 milliseconds is worse than 8 milliseconds for a street driven car? A dog box would make a horrible daily driver box. This is true.

So now we are in a penis fight with whose DSG can shift faster...I can see the magazines bragging on how this box is 0.8 milliseconds faster so therefore it is better. That means if you drove flat out to work banging off redlines you would get there like 30 seconds faster maybe!

Wow, I am sold
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Old 02-23-2013, 02:32 PM   #71
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Man, are you guys really arguing over whether 50 milliseconds is worse than 8 milliseconds for a street driven car? A dog box would make a horrible daily driver box. This is true.

So now we are in a penis fight with whose DSG can shift faster...I can see the magazines bragging on how this box is 0.8 milliseconds faster so therefore it is better. That means if you drove flat out to work banging off redlines you would get there like 30 seconds faster maybe!

Wow, I am sold


No one is saying it would matter, at all.

He said a sequential dogbox is faster than today's automated manual transmissions. I told him he was wrong, and instead of looking it up for himself, he decided to continue to spout BS. Like he does all the time.

So now he knows. In addition to being completely unstreetable, they're not faster.
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Old 02-23-2013, 02:47 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by LIQUIDSK8S View Post
I wish Subaru would follow this idea, instead the STi continues to gain weight, become soft and see no increase in power over 10yrs......that's just sad. Talk about a lux barge.....STi fits that minus the lux.
The problem is that doing so will further increase the price of the STI, and a noticeable chunk of STI buyers will view that as a big deal to the point where it may turn them away. Increasing the price of Porsches typically doesn't faze your average Porsche customer.

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Originally Posted by LIQUIDSK8S View Post
Name us a company that has reduced weight and added power.........it is basically nonexistent apart from Porsche.
Well, didn't Nissan make the 370Z lighter and more powerful than the 350Z?

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Originally Posted by LIQUIDSK8S View Post
Take a look at the Ring lap times. Over 10yrs they only dropped 10sec at the Ring. Porsche? They dropped 30sec's from the 911 Carrera S time. It's simple, add power, remove weight and improve aero/suspension. And don't waste time/money on endless body changes.
But the adjustments made to the 911 have been far more significant, plus the prices have climbed significantly. They've given it a full 100 hp since the 996 Carrera S debuted with 300 hp. You're not going to see a production STI (at least not meant for our shores) with much more punch than it has now without it costing a lot more. Obviously Subaru won't want the STI to be a $40k+ car. The 911 on the other hand has had a significantly higher pricetag that its clientele probably won't flinch about.
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Old 02-23-2013, 03:28 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83 View Post
The problem is that doing so will further increase the price of the STI, and a noticeable chunk of STI buyers will view that as a big deal to the point where it may turn them away. Increasing the price of Porsches typically doesn't faze your average Porsche customer.
Not if you make small changes each year. Do you have any idea on how much money they wasted on redesigning the body every 1-2yrs? I think they made 6-7 huge changes over the course of 10yrs, that's a HUGE waste of money. Most manufacturers have maybe done 2-3 changes over the same time span.


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Well, didn't Nissan make the 370Z lighter and more powerful than the 350Z?
Yes and no. The 2003-05 350Z was actually lighter than the 370Z. The late 350Z got slammed with safety gear which made it heavier than the 370Z.

Just did some more research on the 350Z/370Z, and they followed my point about doing small changes each year and how it adds up. They added power and improved the drivetrain little by little going from 287hp up to 337hp. Granted the STi would have a much harder time seeing these gains, they could still have easily seen 20-30hp with the money they spent on body changes.

What's very impressive for the 370Z/350Z is that they kept the MSRP the same from 2003 to 2013 despite adding power and reducing weight in terms of the chassis. Because the 350Z chassis without the safety equipment would weigh more than a 370Z stripped of safety features.


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But the adjustments made to the 911 have been far more significant, plus the prices have climbed significantly. They've given it a full 100 hp since the 996 Carrera S debuted with 300 hp. You're not going to see a production STI (at least not meant for our shores) with much more punch than it has now without it costing a lot more. Obviously Subaru won't want the STI to be a $40k+ car. The 911 on the other hand has had a significantly higher pricetag that its clientele probably won't flinch about.
I will give you that, the price of the 911 has jumped significantly. But, consider that the base 991 911 now outperforms, by a huge margin, the 2004 911 Carrera S despite costing only $3k more. Then consider that the 991 911 Carrera S outperforms the 997 GT3 RS for $60k less.

If you make small changes every year, eventually it amounts to a big change. The STi has seen a price increase, but barely any performance increase. Most companies will improve the engine a little every year, so maybe between years there's only a 5-10hp difference......... but after a decade suddenly they have 50+hp more than they did before.

But like I said before, Subaru was too concerned with changing the body style every 5 sec that they threw away money that could have been better used on the chassis/engine.
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Old 02-23-2013, 03:38 PM   #74
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I can't even get into how disappointed I am with the STi. I feel that '04 was the best year. It would have been nice to see it progress in performance vs. get fatter.

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Originally Posted by LIQUIDSK8S View Post
You guys are missing the point.

Typically with cars, when they get larger they also gain weight. This is NOT the case with the 991. They increased the size/wheel base and dropped about 250lbs from the car. That's unheard of. As I said before, lux barge not found. They improved handling added power and lost a huge amount of weight.......how can you complain?

Regarding the link. Yes the 991 is physically larger........but it weighs the same amount as the 993 despite being forced to meet tons of safety regulations that the 993 didn't need to. Remove those regulations and the 991 would lose a TON of weight.

Every other company is gaining weight. Ferrari etc are all putting on 300lbs+, the 458 is a pig compared to the 991. Porsche is the only one focused on cutting weight while adding power.

I wish Subaru would follow this idea, instead the STi continues to gain weight, become soft and see no increase in power over 10yrs......that's just sad. Talk about a lux barge.....STi fits that minus the lux.
Yep. 991 is still huge in comparison to the 993/996/997.

991 doesn't compete with 458. It competes with Corvette, Viper, GTR. All of which are continuing after more power and less weight.

I never complained about the 991, it's a great car. Hopefully I can drive my friend's S manual to get a good comparison with the PDK.
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Old 02-23-2013, 03:54 PM   #75
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I can't even get into how disappointed I am with the STi. I feel that '04 was the best year. It would have been nice to see it progress in performance vs. get fatter.


Yep. 991 is still huge in comparison to the 993/996/997.

991 doesn't compete with 458. It competes with Corvette, Viper, GTR. All of which are continuing after more power and less weight.

I never complained about the 991, it's a great car. Hopefully I can drive my friend's S manual to get a good comparison with the PDK.
The base 991 doesn't compete with the 458, but the GT3 RS and GT2 (RS?) will, and they will be 6-700lbs lighter with nearly as much power in the GT3, and one would expect a lot more in the GT2. I have a feeling the new GT3/2 are going to crush the 458.

Also, some might wonder how I got 6-700lbs lighter than the 458. First, the published weight for the 458 was wrong. Wikipedia has it at 3,274lbs. BUT private owners and magazines did independent weighing and found it to actually be 3500lbs...... gotta love when Ferrari lies (check out the Chris Harris blog for more info on their lies). The base 991 weighs 3,075lbs, and the GT3 tends to be 200-300lbs lighter than the standard. Most are expecting the GT3 to weigh in around 2800-2900lbs while making over 500hp........ that's insane.
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