Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday May 29, 2015
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > Proven Power Bragging

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-25-2013, 02:59 PM   #1
sponaugle
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4498
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland, Oregon
Vehicle:
WRX H6-3.0 Turbo
www.surgelinetuning.com

Default EFR7670, Perrin/Cobb, 475whp, Pump Fuel, Sponaugle Style Details.

EFR7670, Perrin/Cobb, 475whp, Pump Fuel, Sponaugle Style Details.


It has been a while since I posted up any results here on Nasioc. My last major update was in 2009, and for most of 2010 and 2011 I kept my Subarus in the same configuration. The 08 STI with the GT30R and the 02 Bugeye with the GT35R H6 3.0L. I decided last summer to give the 08 a refresh. Jeff Perrin has been playing with the Borg Warner EFR turbos and they looked interesting. At the same time the latest SD software from Cobb was getting good traction and the two together seemed like a good starting point. Tim at Surgeline/Cobb has been the master calibrator at Cobb and has refined the Speed Density tuning to a true science. If you are looking for a place to get science not fiction, take it to Cobb.

For those who might not remember, there is an excellent thread about my previous 08 Build here:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1704868

And for those with even longer memories, look at this oldie..

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1412193

I believe this 08 STI was one of the very first tuned (Along with Perrin’s 08 that arrived the same day) , and almost certainly the first with a blown engine.. although I am not sure either of those are really accomplishments. 

I had about 35k miles on my previous built shortblock with stock heads. Since I planned on doing some head work I went ahead and tore down the block to see how things looked. The engine was a bit loose at assembly and even more so at disassembly. The heads were in reasonable shape, and the pistons and rods look fine. Rings looked ok as well, although I was getting slightly lower compression on one cylinder even though no obvious damage occurred. I attributed it to what 30+k miles of high boost daily driving does. My oil consumption at tear down was about 1qt in 1000 miles, and it had been at that level for at least 10k miles. I suspected there was some leakage around a valve seal, although the valves looked pretty clean. Either way, it was time for a refresh. I purchased a new case, used my existing rods and crank, and purchased new Weisco pistons.

For the heads I had them cleaned and replaced all the valves with oversized valves, replaced the seals, and new buckets as well as new Cosworth Intake and Exhaust cams. I also swapped in a Cosworth intake manifold, which is perhaps not *fortuitous* given my previous testing thread about them here:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1774491

Most of the engine components were back together by end of summer, but the arrival of my daughter Audrey (first child) created a disturbance in the time-to-work-on-car force. In October I had the car back on the road to do engine break-in and get some initial impressions of the new EFR 7670 Borg Warner turbo. I should note that this particular EFR 7670 turbo is infact the same turbo Jeff used on his car. (see http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2135597) And by same I mean it is his actual turbo. They were (and are?) still really hard to get so I am using this one before jumping up to the next larger size. I intended to do both pump fuel and E85, and I was tired of messing around with a weak fuel system.

As most of you know I am very much a do-it yourself kinda guy, but my time is compressed so I had Tim at Cobb/Surgeline put together a better fuel option. Chris (also at Cobb Surgeline) built up an amazing fuel system using an intank DW fuel pump feeding into a Radium surge tank that contained a Walbro E85 460lph fuel pump, which feeds and returns fuel from the engine bay with custom -6AN feed and return lines. Under the hood I swapped out the DW1000s for ID2000s, as well as better lines and an Aeromotive regulator. He did an incredible job getting the lines and tank installed in a way that was almost hidden, especially in the main cabin. I really like the small details Chris put in like making a perfect thru-the-firewall bulkhead setup for the lines. Since I was switching to SD, Chris also fabricated a new intake path with no MAF, as well as an intake air temp sensor right before the throttle body. The engine bay was cleaned up, new hoses and piping fitted just right, and great thought into layout and mounting.

Before putting the car on the dyno I swapped in a new wastegate actuator, which was supposed to be the high pressure one. It turns out the one I had on there was the same one, and indeed both were the high pressure one. The important variable here being that when I reinstalled, I did not preload the actuator very much. As a result it took significant wastegate duty cycle to get good boost pressure. After the tune Jeff Perrin tightened it up a bit I was able to hit 30psi midrange and about 24 up top… When I go back on the dyno for E85 I’ll do some runs on pump first with the better boost control and see how she does. I don’t expect results to be that much better, as this is pump fuel so crazy boost is not always the wisest path. (Says I as Tim laughs).

It has been a while since Tim and I had a chance to play on the dyno.. and it certainly brings back fun memories.

Before the tune, a few pictures of the car:





These two pictures are courtesy of Driving Sport, and these were shot when my car was on the cover of Subiesport a few years back.

Here is a shot of the engine bay:



A close up of the new air filter and turbo location. Chris fabricated this air intake custom for my setup, and had everything including the catch can setup power coated to match. In an attempt to not have the intake be a restriction the largest filter that could fit was chosen.



Two closer shot of the turbo:




The turbo piping is part of the EFR Perrin Kit, and they are available now. It sounds like production of the EFRs is getting better, so I hope they will be available in quantity soon!

The location of the partially hidden Radium Surgetank. I really like the location as it keeps it out of the center of the hatch space. Again thanks to Cobb/Surgeline for getting this setup so nicely installed. Before anyone chimes in, yes it would be best practice to have an aluminum shield around it for fire protection.



A closeup of the surgetank. You can see the power connector in the middle, and the feed and return to the engine bay as well as the feed and return from the stock tank.



A look at the fuel pressure regulator:



So.. On to the tune..

First the suggested header data:

Event: Dyno Tune
Location: Cobb Tuning Surgeline
Ambient Temp: 50 Degrees F
Elevation: 300 feet
Car: 2008 STI
Tuner: Jeff Sponaugle, Tim Bailey, Jeff Perrin
Dyno Info: Mustang MD500
Transmission: 6spd stock
Gear for Dyno runs: 3rd
Peak HP at RPM: 475whp@6930RPM
Peak Torque at RPM: 439 lb-ft@4830RPM
Baseline hp/tq for a stock on same dyno: 263 WTQ, 256 WHP, 2.5L STi
Target Boost: As much as we could get.. 26 psi midrange, 22.9 psi at redline.
Target AFR: 11.5ish
Fuel: Unleaded Oregon 92 Octane
Engine/Power Modifications: Built motor, Cosworth cams, valves, EFR7670 turbo.
Driveline Modifications: ACT Clutch
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

Last edited by sponaugle; 02-26-2013 at 10:06 PM.
sponaugle is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 02-25-2013, 03:00 PM   #2
sponaugle
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4498
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland, Oregon
Vehicle:
WRX H6-3.0 Turbo
www.surgelinetuning.com

Default

Details:

At 26psi midrange, and 22.9psi boost at redline the car made 475whp and 439 lb-ft of torque. AFRs were 11.4-11.6. You can see both the boost and AFRs in this chart:



Peak HP at 7000 RPM, as I would expect with these cams. Peak torque follows peak boost, and spool up on the dyno is close to the street spoolup in 3rd gear. (dyno runs also in 3rd gear).



At a slightly lower peak midrange boost pressure of 25psi the car made 472whp and 423 lb-ft of torque. Same AFRs as the higher boost run, and nearly the same peak HP. Less boost less torque.



At an even lower 21psi midrange and redline boost the car made 455whp and 385 lb-ft of torque. The torque drop is as I would expect, but I was pleased with the peak HP, considering the boost level.

To provide some more insight into the tune, we can dig a little deeper into the data for the 25psi runs. Let’s start with the wastegate duty cycle.



You can see the WGDC ramps pretty fast above 5000 rpm playing catchup to the 25psi boost targets. Maximum duty cycle was 87% right at redline. The actuator clearly needs a bit more preload, and a stronger spring!

Next up is the timing and fuel:



The timing is pretty typical for a turbo of this size, dipping in the midrange as boost onsets, and rising towards redline. Timing at torque peak was about 14 degrees, and at horsepower peak about 22. The fuel injector duty cycle peaks at 58% at redline, indicating an abundance of fuel availability. ID2000s backed up by that Walbro pump/Surgetank/lines is a good combination. Another important measure of the fuel system is the sustainability of fuel pressure as boost rises. Lance at Cobb/Surgeline came up with the brilliant idea to setup a fuel pressure sensor on the dyno, and configured an input to subtract the current manifold pressure creating a ‘Differential Fuel Pressure’ measure. An absolutely great idea, and in my mind a newly required datapoint for any serious tuning. One of the things I like about the Cobb dyno setup is the extensive data logging. If you ever go to a dyno and all you can get is grainy printout of HP and Torque, you need to visit a real dyno operation.

Here is a graph of said ‘Differential Fuel Pressure’ measurement during the higher boost run:



Ideally you want that black line to be completely flat, as that indicates the effective base fuel pressure that the injector sees ( of course the injector actually sees a higher fuel pressure combined with a higher manifold pressure ). This line will often not be perfectly flat, but the flatter the better. If it is sloping down, you are in trouble land. Needless to say, I was pretty pleased the fuel system. It will be VERY interesting to see this metric with the much higher demands of E85. Stay Tuned.

AVCS is another area that I have enjoyed tuning. For this setup I started using a more aggressive falloff of Intake AVCS (0 at 5000), but it turns out I get slightly better VE with a bit more AVCS at that RPM. Here is a look at the resulting AVCS, as well as the Intake Air Temperature. Note the IAT is the actual IAT post turbo and post intercooler, right before the throttle body.



Outside air temp was about 50 degrees, so the overall cooling efficiency of the intercooler is quite good. At the boost pressure and flow at redline I would expect the air temperature coming out of the turbo to be over 300 degrees F.


Looking at all three dyno plots together is worthwhile.



You can see the incremental improvement from each change in boost level at torque peak. Instinctivly you might look at this and think the last change in boost netted less gain but that would be wrong. Take a look at a zoom in.



The lb-ft/PSI is the same for the last two PSI settings, and clearly lower than at the lowest 21PSI level. While not conclusive, it does indicate I am in the ‘meaty’ part of the compressor map. Sure enough if you look at the compressor map, at torque peak (between points 2 and ), I am right at the center of the efficiency island. This also indicates there is a lot of room for more midrange torque with the addition of some boost. I took a shot at a more ideal boost curve for this turbo/motor combination:



In that map, peak boost is about 30PSI in the midrange, tapering to 24PSI at redline. This is what I will shoot for with E85 in a few weeks.

Last edited by sponaugle; 02-26-2013 at 10:16 PM.
sponaugle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 03:00 PM   #3
sponaugle
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4498
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland, Oregon
Vehicle:
WRX H6-3.0 Turbo
www.surgelinetuning.com

Default

Lastly we can look at the spoolup on both the dyno as well as the road.



The dyno load for 3rd gear is surprisingly close to the real street load (* note more to talk on this later *) On this chart the two (NO WGD) runs were done on the street with no wastegate duty cycle. 3rd gear spool up is 16PSI at 4000RPM, and 4th gear spoolup is 16PSI at about 3500 RPM. Slower than my .30R .63, but faster than the .35R I ran awhile back.

For those interested in how it was tuned, I’ll give a quick summary of the resulting tables. This tune was done using the Cobb full SD mode, so no MAF sensor is installed.

To get accurate charge temperature it is helpful to install an AIT sensor close to the throttle body and after the intercooler and turbo. Cobb/Surgeline took my tubing and added the correct bung and had everything powder coated. Here is what it looks like:


Last edited by sponaugle; 02-26-2013 at 10:02 PM.
sponaugle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 03:01 PM   #4
sponaugle
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4498
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland, Oregon
Vehicle:
WRX H6-3.0 Turbo
www.surgelinetuning.com

Default

I was using an AEM 5 bar map sensor, seen here:



The resulting VE table:



Note that there has been next to zero tuning of the off boost areas, so don’t look at those with a scornful eye. It is also worthwhile to note that all of the values are lower than many other maps, and this is a direct result of the fuel scalar. If the fuel scalar was made smaller, these numbers would go up. The other side effect of these being a bit lower is a lower ‘load value’. At over 420 lb-ft of torque the load didn’t surpass 3.0. It is all just a math trick and doesn’t really correspond to anything important, but if you are comparing maps you should scale each map to the same peak value.


The primary and dynamic ignition tables:





I typically have a dynamic map that has scaled values that ramp up at higher load ( thus if knock occurs and IAM is reduced it is more dramatic at higher loads), but for some reason I didn’t do that. For my car it really isn’t a big deal, as I don’t think I have ever had the IAM go down. None the less add the two maps together plus comps for final timing.

The intake and exhaust AVCS:





Compared to the map I ran previously, we extended the AVCS a little bit farther, and it did infact increase VE in the 5200-5900 rpm region. Doing more then 25 degrees in the spoolup area made no difference.

Last here is the open look fueling. Pretty simple.



I always find it personally annoying when the called for AFRs are not the same, so over time I’ll adjust these and the VE map to get better alignment. Last but not least, here is a look at the actual ignition timing overlayed on the SD map:



Those with a good eye might notice this is not a Cobb screen. The night before the tune I was flying back to Portland from JFK and thought it would be helpful to have a tool that could overlay values from log files onto different maps, so I cranked this puppy out while wheels were up. I have since added something much more useful… A way to paste in your current VE map, play a log file with differential targets (called for vs actual) plus ST and LT fuel trims, and it calculates a new VE map, with proper 4 cell distribution
and all. Not sure if this is useful to anyone else.

I welcome any and all comments/suggestions/ridicule/etc.

Cheers,

Jeff


(note I'll fixed the newline formatting in the posts in just a sec)

Last edited by sponaugle; 02-25-2013 at 04:33 PM.
sponaugle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 03:25 PM   #5
bigolrig
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 185347
Join Date: Jul 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Lexington, OH
Vehicle:
2002 EVO3 bugeye wag
EG33 Swapped 2 dr RS

Default

nice post!
bigolrig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 03:30 PM   #6
Nickcrsx
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 196071
Join Date: Dec 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
I was using an AEM 5 bar map sensor, seen here:



The resulting VE table:



Note that there has been next to zero turning of the off boost areas, so donít look at those with a scornful eye. It is also worthwhile to note that all of the values are
lower than many other maps, and this is a direct result of the fuel scalar. If the fuel scalar was made smaller, these numbers would go up. The other side effect of these
being a bit lower is a lower Ďload valueí. At over 420 lb-ft of torque the load didnít surpass 3.0. It is all just a math trick and doesnít really correspond to anything
important, but if you are comparing maps you should scale each map to the same peak value.


The primary and dynamic ignition tables:





I typically have a dynamic map that has scaled values that ramp up at higher load ( thus if knock occurs and IAM is reduced it is more dramatic at higher loads), but for some
reason I didnít do that. For my car it really isnít a big deal, as I donít think I have ever had the IAM go down.
None the less add the two maps together plus comps for final timing.

The intake and exhaust AVCS:





Compared to the map I ran previously, we extended the AVCS a little bit farther, and it did infact increase VE in the 5200-5900 rpm region. Doing more then 25 degrees in the
spoolup area made no difference.

Last here is the open look fueling. Pretty simple.



I always find it personally annoying when the called for AFRs are not the same, so over time Iíll adjust these and the VE map to get better alignment.
Last but not least, here is a look at the actual ignition timing overlayed on the SD map:



Those with a good eye might notice this is not a Cobb screen. The night before the tune I was flying back Portland from JFK and thought it would be helpful to have a tool that
could overlay values from log files onto different maps, so I cranked this puppy out while wheels were up. I have since added something much more usefulÖ A way to paste in
your current VE map, play a log file with differential targets (called for vs actual) plus ST and LT fuel trims, and it calculates a new VE map, with proper 4 cell distribution
and all. Not sure if this is useful to anyone else.

I welcome any and all comments/suggestions/ridicule/etc.

Cheers,

Jeff


(note I'll fixed the newline formatting in the posts in just a sec)
Absolutely brilliant post. I love how you post your exact tables. No secrets! Thanks so much.
Nickcrsx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 04:15 PM   #7
bebesito21
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 176128
Join Date: Mar 2008
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: I <3 E85
Vehicle:
5862 ...baby boosted

Default

so will you also be providing a link to that new fancy tool

thanks so much for the informative posts. i learn something every time i read your threads
bebesito21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 04:17 PM   #8
KingPest
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 194894
Join Date: Nov 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Cincinnati
Vehicle:
2013 BRZ
2005 STi

Default

Thanks for the info! This is a great help to people wanting to learn.
KingPest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 04:56 PM   #9
Bailey
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12572
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland Oregon
Vehicle:
2004 STi
35R is enough

Default Got some subaru love post tune

As many of you know i got my start in the tuning world with Subaru and have since gone on to tune everything COBB offers with much of my focus now being the COBB GTR tuning maps and development.

But, spending some time tuning with Jeff Sponaugle (AKA Spoon) working with this state of the art big power subaru makes me want to buy another project subaru TODAY.... if only all the GDs weren't ratted out overpriced hunks. I might have to get dirty with a new GR.

Anyway - amazing turbo/engine combination. NOBODY makes 450+ on pump on the COBB surgeline dyno outside of VR38s :-)

Looking forward to E85 Jeff. Lets finish up the pump fuel tune at 500 and then go for 600 on Ethanol.

Great post as always.
Tim Bailey
Bailey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 05:01 PM   #10
Bailey
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12572
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland Oregon
Vehicle:
2004 STi
35R is enough

Default

BTW - Jeff Sponaugle make reference to his being the first GR to need a new motor. In fact, I blew up Jeffs brand new GR hatch on the dyno christmas day 2007 while he was out of town (R&D for COBB calibrations). When i called Jeff with the bad news - nearly in tears myself - he simply asked if i'd ordered the new forged pistons yet. Because Jeff got started into subaru's so early he's knows the price of being on the leading edge. Luckily for Jeff he can afford it and as we used to say back in the days of PDXWRX (the club from which Surgeline, Perrin, and PDXTuning arose) breaking something is just an "unplanned upgrade opportunity".
Bailey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 05:34 PM   #11
medamullet
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 99442
Join Date: Oct 2005
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Man of Mystery
Vehicle:
2006 SGM STI
I'm on CORN YO!

Default

why did you put the IAT in the piping and not just in the manifold after the TB?
medamullet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 05:36 PM   #12
Bailey
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12572
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland Oregon
Vehicle:
2004 STi
35R is enough

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by medamullet View Post
why did you put the IAT in the piping and not just in the manifold after the TB?
The manifold will tend to heat soak more than the intercooler piping just before the throttle body. For accurate tuning you need to temperature to reflect the air temp and not the temp of the aluminum manifold.

Regards
Tim Bailey
Bailey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 05:39 PM   #13
medamullet
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 99442
Join Date: Oct 2005
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Man of Mystery
Vehicle:
2006 SGM STI
I'm on CORN YO!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey View Post
The manifold will tend to heat soak more than the intercooler piping just before the throttle body. For accurate tuning you need to temperature to reflect the air temp and not the temp of the aluminum manifold.

Regards
Tim Bailey
good point but I would think with phenolic spacers the thichker intake would be a good place to put it and a much cleaner look.
medamullet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 05:55 PM   #14
Bariga
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 179846
Join Date: May 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Renton, WA
Vehicle:
07 STi Limited
EFR 7670 TS

Default

nice,
We also had AVCS working all the way to redline to keep the turbo happy.
I notice it spools very late and boost falls off might want to check out my thread

Last edited by Bariga; 02-25-2013 at 06:20 PM.
Bariga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 06:21 PM   #15
LittleBlueGT
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 96204
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Location: Winnipeg
Vehicle:
2013 STI GR
White

Default

Can you make any comparisons to the GTX3076 turbo?

Also, and this is the big question for me:

-the EFR turbos with their titanium light weight exhaust wheel, this should in theory provide better spool-up, well possibly still having the same boost threshold as a comparably sized turbo. Can you give any feedback on how the turbo reacts to throttle changes above the boost threshold?

As always, thanks a lot.
LittleBlueGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 06:48 PM   #16
Equilibrium Tuning
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 26933
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Fairfield, CA
Vehicle:
2006 STI
CGM

Default

Great info Jeff! Love the level of detail.

I noticed you're running the system in OL for idle. Have you tried tuning those injectors in CL? I found that you can get them running pretty damn well in CL using the per injector comp tables. On certain sets it takes up to a 9% differential, but it works well and you don't have to idle them super rich to do it.

Thanks
-- Ed
Equilibrium Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 06:52 PM   #17
jaxscuby
Sammo Hung
Moderator
 
Member#: 10613
Join Date: Sep 2001
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: S Ga / N Fla
Vehicle:
2002 USDM WRX
WRB

Default

always enlightening and truthful.

what no dry sump and accumulator on this one?

imitation is always the highest form of flattery and when
I get a build that comes close to your setup I reference your builds
as what the set up should put out.

Great job..as usual.
jaxscuby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 07:03 PM   #18
kellygnsd
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32669
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Rancho C
Vehicle:
2007 2.34LR, EFR7670
LINK G4 hybrid STi

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey View Post
The manifold will tend to heat soak more than the intercooler piping just before the throttle body. For accurate tuning you need to temperature to reflect the air temp and not the temp of the aluminum manifold.

Regards
Tim Bailey
I notice this a bit with the location of my IAT in the manifold but its really not that bad unless you are idling in excess of 5 minutes. IAT immediately starts to lower as soon I get any appreciable flow past the sensor.
kellygnsd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 08:38 PM   #19
medamullet
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 99442
Join Date: Oct 2005
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Man of Mystery
Vehicle:
2006 SGM STI
I'm on CORN YO!

Default

what IAT sensor are you using? It looks like the AEM one. great build btw lots of good info. Definately bookmarking for my build not the same but definately great ideas.
medamullet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 10:31 PM   #20
sponaugle
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4498
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland, Oregon
Vehicle:
WRX H6-3.0 Turbo
www.surgelinetuning.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickcrsx View Post
Absolutely brilliant post. I love how you post your exact tables. No secrets! Thanks so much.
Thanks. Over the years I have learned it is about the tuning, not the tune.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bebesito21 View Post
so will you also be providing a link to that new fancy tool

thanks so much for the informative posts. i learn something every time i read your threads
Indeed, Tim suggested it might be useful. I'll make it a bit more presentable (and something that might actually work on another system) and post up a link.

Quote:
Originally Posted by medamullet View Post
why did you put the IAT in the piping and not just in the manifold after the TB?
As Tim said, putting is in the manifold really has two problems. The first is head soak, and the second is where to put it. There is a spot on the inside of the manifold under the throttle body, but I think that might not get the best flow in all conditions.

Of course those of us that had the original Spec C back in 02-03 might remember that those manifolds came with IAT sensors in that exact location, so it might not be that bad.

In the end I suspect it is not a make or break either way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by medamullet View Post
good point but I would think with phenolic spacers the thichker intake would be a good place to put it and a much cleaner look.
Yea, I'd have to do some measurements to see how the temperature changes with that. Might work just fine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bariga View Post
nice,
We also had AVCS working all the way to redline to keep the turbo happy.
I notice it spools very late and boost falls off might want to check out my thread
Yea, I have followed a bit of your thread, and I might put on the two way wastegate.. but I think with a bit of pretension I can get what I need. That turbo is getting close to the edge of the compressor map at 24psi at redline, so if I can get 30 in the midrange tapering to 24, I'll be pretty happy.. Besides I'll probably switch to the next size up BW sometime soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
Can you make any comparisons to the GTX3076 turbo?

Also, and this is the big question for me:

-the EFR turbos with their titanium light weight exhaust wheel, this should in theory provide better spool-up, well possibly still having the same boost threshold as a comparably sized turbo. Can you give any feedback on how the turbo reacts to throttle changes above the boost threshold?

As always, thanks a lot.
I think Jeff did a good comparison to the GTX. I had the GT30R with .63 before, and this turbo really is different. With the 30R the spool threshold seemed more absolute.. when you hit it boost came on hard and fast, be before that very little. With this guy it feels much quicker at the onset of boost, with less of the rapid torque change.. at least seat of the pants feel.

By far the most noticeable thing is the off boosts to on boost switch when you are above the boost threshold. Between gears spool up is MUCH faster even without flat foot shifting. It is perhaps most noticeable if you cruise up to higher rpms and then punch it. I'll have to shoot some videos to demonstrate, but compared to my 30R you can tell a difference.

It is not quite as snappy as my 35R powered EZ30R, but close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium Tuning View Post
Great info Jeff! Love the level of detail.

I noticed you're running the system in OL for idle. Have you tried tuning those injectors in CL? I found that you can get them running pretty damn well in CL using the per injector comp tables. On certain sets it takes up to a 9% differential, but it works well and you don't have to idle them super rich to do it.

Thanks
-- Ed
Nice noticing that.. yes in closed loop it is ok, but not great yet. Once settled it is good but before that it can search. Working on the idle is on my todo list.. and I appreciate the suggestions. I'll have to play around with that comp. Lance also provided some really good input about a few tables related to target airflow.

The nicest thing is with the OL right now it idles perfectly at 900 RPM, with ID2000 injectors and the Cosworth Cams. I'm happy about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaxscuby View Post
always enlightening and truthful.

what no dry sump and accumulator on this one?

imitation is always the highest form of flattery and when
I get a build that comes close to your setup I reference your builds
as what the set up should put out.

Great job..as usual.
Thanks.. Yea no oil system stuff.. just keeping it simple.. well.. for now. But you never know!
sponaugle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 10:34 PM   #21
sponaugle
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4498
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland, Oregon
Vehicle:
WRX H6-3.0 Turbo
www.surgelinetuning.com

Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by medamullet View Post
what IAT sensor are you using? It looks like the AEM one. great build btw lots of good info. Definately bookmarking for my build not the same but definately great ideas.
I got it from Tim.... so I'll have to ask. I think it is the AEM one. I am surprised that I don't know!

Jeff

Last edited by sponaugle; 02-25-2013 at 10:40 PM.
sponaugle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 10:38 PM   #22
sponaugle
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4498
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland, Oregon
Vehicle:
WRX H6-3.0 Turbo
www.surgelinetuning.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium Tuning View Post
Great info Jeff! Love the level of detail.

I noticed you're running the system in OL for idle. Have you tried tuning those injectors in CL? I found that you can get them running pretty damn well in CL using the per injector comp tables. On certain sets it takes up to a 9% differential, but it works well and you don't have to idle them super rich to do it.

Thanks
-- Ed

One more *VERY* interesting discovery for other tuners to ponder. When I first flashed on a starting map, the fueling wasn't well calibrated so the idle was set to 1200. I noticed that the AVCS system was not working, and I thought something was wrong.

I got the scope out and checked the signals to the solenoids, sensors, etc... no dice. Jeff Perrin came over and flashed on one of his maps which worked fine, and AVCS worked. I spent a few hours going over each map and trying different combinations until I figure it out.

Sure enough if the idle table is set to 1200, AVCS doesn't work reliably. I say 'reliably' because there were a few instance where it did start working, and those times seem linked to almost killing the car such that the RPMs were in the 500 range.

As soon as I took the original map and changed the idle to 900.. bam perfect AVCS.. It was not temperature or wheel speed or anything else. If I went back to the 1200 RPM idle map AVCS would not turn on even after 20 mins driving around.

I am not sure if this is repeatable by other tuners, but I would love to hear if it is.

Cheers,

Jeff Sponaugle
sponaugle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 11:45 PM   #23
Equilibrium Tuning
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 26933
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Fairfield, CA
Vehicle:
2006 STI
CGM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
One more *VERY* interesting discovery for other tuners to ponder. When I first flashed on a starting map, the fueling wasn't well calibrated so the idle was set to 1200. I noticed that the AVCS system was not working, and I thought something was wrong.

I got the scope out and checked the signals to the solenoids, sensors, etc... no dice. Jeff Perrin came over and flashed on one of his maps which worked fine, and AVCS worked. I spent a few hours going over each map and trying different combinations until I figure it out.

Sure enough if the idle table is set to 1200, AVCS doesn't work reliably. I say 'reliably' because there were a few instance where it did start working, and those times seem linked to almost killing the car such that the RPMs were in the 500 range.

As soon as I took the original map and changed the idle to 900.. bam perfect AVCS.. It was not temperature or wheel speed or anything else. If I went back to the 1200 RPM idle map AVCS would not turn on even after 20 mins driving around.

I am not sure if this is repeatable by other tuners, but I would love to hear if it is.

Cheers,

Jeff Sponaugle
Wow that weird. I've never seen that personally but I rarely idle them that high. I'll check next time and see if I can't confirm this behavior.

As far as idle, a little work with the per injector comps and the idle desired air flow usually stabilizes it out really nicely. Just watch the roughness monitors and add fuel to the injector associated with the cylinder that's throwing roughness until you balance them out. Shoot me an e-mail and I'll send you an example if you'd like.

I personally don't like running idle in open loop, so I worked for a while to figure out this method with the 2000's.

Thanks
-- Ed
Equilibrium Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2013, 12:15 AM   #24
mick_the_ginge
Citizen Mick
 
Member#: 27646
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland, Oregon
Vehicle:
2003 Sleeved 2.5
Oil Dry Sump Goodness

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaxscuby View Post
what no dry sump and accumulator on this one?
Lol, I hope you are not getting Jeff and I mixed up !!! Just remember that I'm the ugly one with the good looking car.... Oh wait a sec, it's the other way around

Great tune as usual Jeff. Maybe some track time this year?

I need to get some time on the dyno too. Just popped in my spare block and small GT30R .82 turbo. And turned back on Antilag........
mick_the_ginge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2013, 01:17 AM   #25
lancelucas
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 124282
Join Date: Aug 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: 30000 ft
Vehicle:
04 WRX Wagon PSM
13 STI Sedan SWP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
The fuel injector duty cycle peaks at 58% at redline, indicating an abundance of fuel availability. ID2000s backed up by that Walbro pump/Surgetank/lines is a good combination. Another important measure of the fuel system is the sustainability of fuel pressure as boost rises. Lance at Cobb/Surgeline
setup a fuel pressure sensor on the dyno, and configured an input to subtract the current manifold pressure creating a ‘Differential Fuel Pressure’ measure. An absolutely great idea, and in my mind a newly required datapoint for any serious tuning.

Here is a graph of said ‘Differential Fuel Pressure’ measurement during the higher boost run:



Ideally you want that black line to be completely flat, as that indicates the effective base fuel pressure that the injector sees ( of course the injector actually sees a higher fuel pressure combined with a higher manifold pressure ). This line will often not be perfectly flat, but the flatter the better. If it is sloping down, you are in trouble land. Needless to say, I was pretty pleased the fuel system. It will be VERY interesting to see this metric with the much higher demands of E85. Stay Tuned.
If we had an infinitely long and completely linear coil spring available for the regulator, it could be done

Who wants to try running 12 regulators in parallel? I'll provide the dyno time

There is one other method - closed-loop fuel pump control. Fuellab has a setup that does this -- speed controls a pump based on pressure at the regulator, though I don't know if it's precise enough or even designed to address slight spring/regulator non-linearity (it still uses a traditional bypass regulator as well).

LL
lancelucas is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2015 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2015, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.