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Old 02-26-2013, 10:30 AM   #26
medamullet
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Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
One more *VERY* interesting discovery for other tuners to ponder. When I first flashed on a starting map, the fueling wasn't well calibrated so the idle was set to 1200. I noticed that the AVCS system was not working, and I thought something was wrong.

I got the scope out and checked the signals to the solenoids, sensors, etc... no dice. Jeff Perrin came over and flashed on one of his maps which worked fine, and AVCS worked. I spent a few hours going over each map and trying different combinations until I figure it out.

Sure enough if the idle table is set to 1200, AVCS doesn't work reliably. I say 'reliably' because there were a few instance where it did start working, and those times seem linked to almost killing the car such that the RPMs were in the 500 range.

As soon as I took the original map and changed the idle to 900.. bam perfect AVCS.. It was not temperature or wheel speed or anything else. If I went back to the 1200 RPM idle map AVCS would not turn on even after 20 mins driving around.

I am not sure if this is repeatable by other tuners, but I would love to hear if it is.

Cheers,

Jeff Sponaugle
That actually makes sense to me. I had a similar problem with cams and bigger injectors. I bumped the idle up to 1200 and the car idled poorly and when you would blip the gas it would almost die. I eventually lowered it down to ~1000 but any lower and the car wouldn't idle at all. I also was messing with the AVCS. I didn't think that what fixed the problem was the lower idle. I kept going back to the AVCS because it wasn't working. It was a couple years ago so I can't exactly remember all teh details. but that's definately news to keep handy in the future.

Thanks
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:31 AM   #27
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Nice work
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:01 AM   #28
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Awesome job and awesome information as always.

What kind of Dyno was used for the tuning and testing? I'm curious about the 3rd gear load matching what you have seen on the road.

I know that Perrin used to have a Dynapack. I currently work with a Dynapack as well and I'm interested in what your ramp settings are. To be fair I'll start with what I typically use.

I have the settle time typically between 2 and 4 seconds depending on how the car is behaving. Second I start the pulls at 2000 rpm and finish wherever the car is happy at, or the redline is set. I then add 1.25 seconds on the max rpm. example below -->

-Subaru at 7000rpm = ramp time of 8.25 seconds
-Subaru at 6500rpm = ramp time of 7.75 seconds

Sometimes I will increase the ramp time to get closer to the spool on the street for the gear which is closest to a 1:1 ratio. In my 5-speed bugeye that would be 4th gear. But after reading through your testing, I'm starting to think I should be in 3rd. Because we all know that trying to extend the ramp time can make some REALLY bad things happen.

Anyways, I would appreciate any feedback! Thanks for your time in creating this informative thread.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:15 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by mick_the_ginge View Post
Lol, I hope you are not getting Jeff and I mixed up !!! Just remember that I'm the ugly one with the good looking car.... Oh wait a sec, it's the other way around

Great tune as usual Jeff. Maybe some track time this year?

I need to get some time on the dyno too. Just popped in my spare block and small GT30R .82 turbo. And turned back on Antilag........
Yea, I thought the same thing. All of us Portland guys just blend into a crazy mix. I hope for some track time this year! It will probably be in the bugeye, as I just pulled it off the lift after rebuilding pretty much all of the suspension components, new transmission, carbon fiber prop shaft, and new turbo piping.

Oh the Antilag. I like the Antilag.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelucas View Post
There is one other method - closed-loop fuel pump control. Fuellab has a setup that does this -- speed controls a pump based on pressure at the regulator, though I don't know if it's precise enough or even designed to address slight spring/regulator non-linearity (it still uses a traditional bypass regulator as well).

LL
Ah.. interesting idea. It would seem a feedback system that uses a dynamically controlled valve might work.. much like a boost controller. You would need a solenoid that can open and close with fuel it it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by medamullet View Post
I kept going back to the AVCS because it wasn't working. It was a couple years ago so I can't exactly remember all teh details. but that's definately news to keep handy in the future.

Thanks
AVCS is funky in how it is enabled. I remember on the old JDM cars you had to have the neutral switch working for it to kick on, and if you didn't you would never figure out why. There are of course temperature requirements, and it now seems some low RPM zones you have to pass thru.

One thing worth noting: If you AVCS doesn't work, your tune is WAY different. VE changes significantly, and the VE map in the SD software has no way to know if AVCS is on or off. Since there is no MAF sensor, the tune will be off. If you tune with it on and it fails for some reason you will be very rich as VE is reduced.. which I supposed is a better fail-safe than the opposite direction. However if you change the AVCS maps, you are more in need of tuning then with a MAF based system... and important consideration for those tweaking post tune.

Jeff

Last edited by sponaugle; 02-26-2013 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:26 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by SW00P_G View Post
Awesome job and awesome information as always.

What kind of Dyno was used for the tuning and testing? I'm curious about the 3rd gear load matching what you have seen on the road.

I know that Perrin used to have a Dynapack. I currently work with a Dynapack as well and I'm interested in what your ramp settings are. To be fair I'll start with what I typically use.

I have the settle time typically between 2 and 4 seconds depending on how the car is behaving. Second I start the pulls at 2000 rpm and finish wherever the car is happy at, or the redline is set. I then add 1.25 seconds on the max rpm. example below -->

-Subaru at 7000rpm = ramp time of 8.25 seconds
-Subaru at 6500rpm = ramp time of 7.75 seconds

Sometimes I will increase the ramp time to get closer to the spool on the street for the gear which is closest to a 1:1 ratio. In my 5-speed bugeye that would be 4th gear. But after reading through your testing, I'm starting to think I should be in 3rd. Because we all know that trying to extend the ramp time can make some REALLY bad things happen.

Anyways, I would appreciate any feedback! Thanks for your time in creating this informative thread.
This was on a Mustang 4WD dyno, which has several different ways to do dynamic loading. I was using the 'vehicle simulation' mode, which takes an estimated weight and [email protected] to simulate a fixed starting load and an accelerating load at higher speed. It works well, but the numbers are way off. To get accurate load like you see on the street, I used 3900 lbs and 15 [email protected] That seems to match pretty close the total change in rpm/vs compared to the street.

I did these tunes in 3rd gear, but I have done them in 4th as well. Given the greater load in 4th you get faster spool and higher boost, so it is really good to do both gears if you have the time.

There really isn't anything magical about 1:1 ratio.. It does change slightly the efficiency of the gear, but actually the gears are a bit more efficiently at slightly offset values. I actually wrote a post about this exact topic some time ago:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...light=dyno+1+1

The 1:1 is a carry over from automatic transmissions. You should not use that as a benchmark.

As for what gear to use, it really is ideal to have they dyno configured such that each gear performs similarly to what the car would see on the road. To test this out you could datalog you car and see how fast (in seconds) it goes from each 1000 rpm mark, then do the same datalog on the dyno. I may give this a try to see if I can tweak the load numbers to match better.

Since you have a dynapak ( and Jeff Perrin does as well ), your only choice if the total ramp time. You would have to pick a ramp time that gives you the best overall match. On the road the load forces are very dynamic, and of course wind drag is based on speed. The load on the engine is increased in a single gear as you increase in speed. That is the purpose of the "[email protected]" setting in the Mustang software. If you make that number super high, the car will start off great but really struggle at higher RPM as the load ramps up. It can be a fun way to simulate a large hill.

Cheers,


Jeff
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:31 PM   #31
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Thanks for the post.

I'm amazed at how much timing you can run on 92. There must be something with E10 Hawaii gas or the way it burns or is it just the exhaust AVCS having some effect on EGT?

For your tuning strategy, do you typically tune for MBT and then back off timing or just leave it?
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:33 PM   #32
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Great read, and AWESOME results from the OG guys. I love it


The AVCS/1200rpm thing clicks well. I can relate to the 1200rpm big cam idle, then sudden drops to either a stall or 200-300rpms and 5psi of oil pressure lol


Jr
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:48 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by reid-o View Post
Thanks for the post.

I'm amazed at how much timing you can run on 92. There must be something with E10 Hawaii gas or the way it burns or is it just the exhaust AVCS having some effect on EGT?

For your tuning strategy, do you typically tune for MBT and then back off timing or just leave it?
The pump fuel here is 92, and our experience is that does reasonably well in Subarus in the mid 11s.. however there is some variance. It always seems that cars with Chevron do a bit better in terms of knock resistance compared to Shell, even though both of those fuels come from the exact same pipeline source. The only difference is the additives.. so perhaps they make some difference for high combustion pressure situations.

Also the ability to run timing depends greatly on other engine inefficiencies. If your ability to remove exhaust components is improved because of greater head flow, that might show up as an ability to handle a bit more timing.

As Clark once said, Timing is not a volume knob.

When tuning the timing, I think the general approach is to try and find the MBT and see how it varies around that point. In this case I was able to get pretty close in most cases without knock, and at the point where no more power could be had the timing was pulled back a little. I suspect I could pull back a bit more and only loose a marginal amount of power, and as I street drive I might play around with that a bit. Since this is SD I will be watching things as the local air temp increases over the summer.


In a few weeks, I'll be using one of these, as I purchased a complete TFX system for this car.



Then I can *REALLY* see what is going on. More on that soon.

Cheers,

Jeff

Last edited by sponaugle; 02-26-2013 at 12:54 PM.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:52 PM   #34
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This thread is really really good Jeff, great work dude! Thanks for this! Any chance on releasing the tool you made to the public? That looks like it'd make tuning much easier rather than going line by line, cell by cell (me being a noob).
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Old 02-26-2013, 02:01 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
The pump fuel here is 92, and our experience is that does reasonably well in Subarus in the mid 11s.. however there is some variance. It always seems that cars with Chevron do a bit better in terms of knock resistance compared to Shell, even though both of those fuels come from the exact same pipeline source. The only difference is the additives.. so perhaps they make some difference for high combustion pressure situations.

Also the ability to run timing depends greatly on other engine inefficiencies. If your ability to remove exhaust components is improved because of greater head flow, that might show up as an ability to handle a bit more timing.

As Clark once said, Timing is not a volume knob.

When tuning the timing, I think the general approach is to try and find the MBT and see how it varies around that point. In this case I was able to get pretty close in most cases without knock, and at the point where no more power could be had the timing was pulled back a little. I suspect I could pull back a bit more and only loose a marginal amount of power, and as I street drive I might play around with that a bit. Since this is SD I will be watching things as the local air temp increases over the summer.


In a few weeks, I'll be using one of these, as I purchased a complete TFX system for this car.



Then I can *REALLY* see what is going on. More on that soon.

Cheers,

Jeff
Thanks. I may give Chevron a try then (it just always seemed to cost a lot more). I was just curious since I haven't had many experiences on pump gas reaching MBT on a Subaru, except maybe with a lot of meth injection, just different degrees of diminishing returns. It's always good to compare to more data from posts like this from people with a a lot of dyno time as comparison.


Oh awesome. Is that a combustion chamber pressure sensor?
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Old 02-26-2013, 02:31 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
The pump fuel here is 92, and our experience is that does reasonably well in Subarus in the mid 11s.. however there is some variance. It always seems that cars with Chevron do a bit better in terms of knock resistance compared to Shell, even though both of those fuels come from the exact same pipeline source. The only difference is the additives.. so perhaps they make some difference for high combustion pressure situations.

Also the ability to run timing depends greatly on other engine inefficiencies. If your ability to remove exhaust components is improved because of greater head flow, that might show up as an ability to handle a bit more timing.

As Clark once said, Timing is not a volume knob.

When tuning the timing, I think the general approach is to try and find the MBT and see how it varies around that point. In this case I was able to get pretty close in most cases without knock, and at the point where no more power could be had the timing was pulled back a little. I suspect I could pull back a bit more and only loose a marginal amount of power, and as I street drive I might play around with that a bit. Since this is SD I will be watching things as the local air temp increases over the summer.


In a few weeks, I'll be using one of these, as I purchased a complete TFX system for this car.



Then I can *REALLY* see what is going on. More on that soon.

Cheers,

Jeff
Excuse my ignorance but what is a TFX system?
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Old 02-26-2013, 02:42 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
In a few weeks, I'll be using one of these, as I purchased a complete TFX system for this car.



Then I can *REALLY* see what is going on. More on that soon.

Cheers,

Jeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by reid-o View Post

Oh awesome. Is that a combustion chamber pressure sensor?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post
Excuse my ignorance but what is a TFX system?

Please school us!
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Old 02-26-2013, 02:55 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wgr73 View Post
This thread is really really good Jeff, great work dude! Thanks for this! Any chance on releasing the tool you made to the public? That looks like it'd make tuning much easier rather than going line by line, cell by cell (me being a noob).
Yep.. I'll get it so it works without tweaking the code, and I'll post it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reid-o View Post
Thanks. I may give Chevron a try then (it just always seemed to cost a lot more). I was just curious since I haven't had many experiences on pump gas reaching MBT on a Subaru, except maybe with a lot of meth injection, just different degrees of diminishing returns. It's always good to compare to more data from posts like this from people with a a lot of dyno time as comparison.
Oh awesome. Is that a combustion chamber pressure sensor?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post
Excuse my ignorance but what is a TFX system?
Yes... TFX makes a combustion system that allows you to see realtime combusion curves for every cycle. I can do a dyno pull and for each cycle of combustion see how it looks.

It looks like this:



I had the sensor installed in an NGK LFR7AIX plug. By being able to see each combustion cycle, it is possible to see the relative location of MBT, how the burn progresses relative to timing changes, pressure curves for intake and exhaust pressure, etc. It will really be the ultimate way to tune. It is not something I would expect to see a tuner use on customers cars a lot.. but it is possible. The full system is around $10k, and the modified spark plug and sensor is about $1k each. Then again if you are building a car and putting 20-30k in the engine this makes sense.

I have been waiting for a system like this to be affordable for years. Now I can really start understanding how some of these tuning changes effects the cylinder pressure and resulting power.

Jeff
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:04 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
Yep.. I'll get it so it works without tweaking the code, and I'll post it up.





Yes... TFX makes a combustion system that allows you to see realtime combusion curves for every cycle. I can do a dyno pull and for each cycle of combustion see how it looks.

It looks like this:



I had the sensor installed in an NGK LFR7AIX plug. By being able to see each combustion cycle, it is possible to see the relative location of MBT, how the burn progresses relative to timing changes, pressure curves for intake and exhaust pressure, etc. It will really be the ultimate way to tune. It is not something I would expect to see a tuner use on customers cars a lot.. but it is possible. The full system is around $10k, and the modified spark plug and sensor is about $1k each. Then again if you are building a car and putting 20-30k in the engine this makes sense.

I have been waiting for a system like this to be affordable for years. Now I can really start understanding how some of these tuning changes effects the cylinder pressure and resulting power.

Jeff
Thanks!


Wow, this seems like an awesome tool for tuners with expensive builds or shops doing high HP cars! Gotta love this type of tech!
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Old 02-26-2013, 04:13 PM   #40
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^^^ Very cool. This is when tuning becomes a true science.

-- Ed
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Old 02-26-2013, 04:52 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
Yep.. I'll get it so it works without tweaking the code, and I'll post it up.





Yes... TFX makes a combustion system that allows you to see realtime combusion curves for every cycle. I can do a dyno pull and for each cycle of combustion see how it looks.

It looks like this:



I had the sensor installed in an NGK LFR7AIX plug. By being able to see each combustion cycle, it is possible to see the relative location of MBT, how the burn progresses relative to timing changes, pressure curves for intake and exhaust pressure, etc. It will really be the ultimate way to tune. It is not something I would expect to see a tuner use on customers cars a lot.. but it is possible. The full system is around $10k, and the modified spark plug and sensor is about $1k each. Then again if you are building a car and putting 20-30k in the engine this makes sense.

I have been waiting for a system like this to be affordable for years. Now I can really start understanding how some of these tuning changes effects the cylinder pressure and resulting power.

Jeff
I have a stiffy
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:37 PM   #42
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BTW: Here is a comparison of spool of the GT30R .63 AR on the same dyno a few years go. This is a VERY ROUGH comparison because the EFR engine has different heads/valves/cams... but it does give you a rough idea of a comparison.

The .63 GT30R was the fastest spooling of the configs I had on the previous motor. The EFR7670 is a 35R size turbo, so the spool is surprisingly close.. it is close to the .82 AR GT30.



I couldn't find my dyno logs with the GT30R .82, but if I do I'll post that as well.

Jeff

Last edited by sponaugle; 02-26-2013 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:43 PM   #43
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Nice surge tank, Jeff. Looks familiar...

I can't wait to see what E85 does.
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Old 02-26-2013, 07:29 PM   #44
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That would make knock readings less of a guess, like listening for clues when your wife is mad. I looked at the website but it doesn't say if there's a 5volt output for external logging.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:14 PM   #45
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That would make knock readings less of a guess, like listening for clues when your wife is mad. I looked at the website but it doesn't say if there's a 5volt output for external logging.
It is possible to log the data yourself, but the software provides a data dump. You couldn't really log this into the dyno, as the data rate is way to high. Consider that you are probably getting something in the 256-512 samples per combustion event, and if you log all 4 cylinders that equates to 2 events per revolution. At 8000 RPM that is 16000 events per min, or 266 per second. With each event being 512 samples, that is 136,533 samples per second.

You would want a system that can be reliable to at least 200,000 samples per second, perhaps 12 bit resolution. That is MUCH higher then any dyno can take.

After the pull it would be possible to re correlate the data. One of the things that I am most interested in doing is developing software to use pattern recognition to auto detect pre-ignition and knock events across a large number of sample. That could then be used to train and advanced auto detection system, and that system could output values that a Dyno could log.

Make sense?

Cheers,

Jeff
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:51 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
The EFR7670 is a 35R size turbo, so the spool is surprisingly close..
Inducer size says otherwise, at least on paper

GT3076R - 57.0mm. EFR7670 - 57.2mm. GTX30R - 58.0mm.

GT3582R - 61.4mm. GTX3582R - 62.5mm.

Granted there's more than meets the eye than inducer size, but it sure has been a decent and consistent standard for a long time. Enlighten me sir!
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:07 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by lancelucas View Post

Inducer size says otherwise, at least on paper

GT3076R - 57.0mm. EFR7670 - 57.2mm. GTX30R - 58.0mm.

GT3582R - 61.4mm. GTX3582R - 62.5mm.

Granted there's more than meets the eye than inducer size, but it sure has been a decent and consistent standard for a long time. Enlighten me sir!
I think he was referring to flow rate.
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Old 02-27-2013, 03:54 AM   #48
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I think he was referring to flow rate.
Fair.
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Old 02-27-2013, 06:34 AM   #49
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I would love to hear what you learn from the pressure sensors. I've been drooling over those for years. There was a brief period where $1000/plug seemed tolerable... And then I started looking into the data acquisition....

If your car stumbles at all during cruise, I'd love to know what the pressure sensors show when that happens. It's a problem (or family of problems with similar symptoms) that plagues a lot of Subarus.

But mostly I wonder what's going on at high power. With different AFRs and timing and boost. Fascinating stuff.
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Old 02-27-2013, 06:37 AM   #50
rasheedn
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2009 STi
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i love tfx system idea

you can use phormula knock ks4 and analyzer pro to log with the dyno too

it helps a lot
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