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Old 08-21-2013, 08:00 AM   #151
rjrutzky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
I think you don't understand that helical and spur (straight cut) and tooth profile and synrco and dog are gear engagement types.

Dog has no synrcos.

As for time attack, we want dig engagement for faster shifts and also no waiting on syncros to catch up at high RPM That's part of why dog engagement is points off of your power/weight in ST/TT classing.
I completely understand spur/helical/dog/syncro. F4m posted this:
EMCO Hybrid Dog gear set including the input shaft 1-2 Spur gear (Straight cut) 3-5 Helical $6,750
If you do the dog box you have to do the forks Which are a little more than PPG but you can see you're already saving $2,079.80


I assumed the hybrid part was dog 1-2 because you can't do helical dog engagement that I'm aware. I didn't see any option for a full syncro box
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:50 AM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjrutzky View Post
I completely understand spur/helical/dog/syncro. F4m posted this:
EMCO Hybrid Dog gear set including the input shaft 1-2 Spur gear (Straight cut) 3-5 Helical $6,750
If you do the dog box you have to do the forks Which are a little more than PPG but you can see you're already saving $2,079.80


I assumed the hybrid part was dog 1-2 because you can't do helical dog engagement that I'm aware. I didn't see any option for a full syncro box
i always thought helical dog was very easily possible, it's just that nobody bothers because by the time you go dogbox practicality/DD friendliness/etc has been thrown out the window?
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Old 08-21-2013, 09:20 AM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjrutzky View Post
I completely understand spur/helical/dog/syncro. F4m posted this:
EMCO Hybrid Dog gear set including the input shaft 1-2 Spur gear (Straight cut) 3-5 Helical $6,750
If you do the dog box you have to do the forks Which are a little more than PPG but you can see you're already saving $2,079.80


I assumed the hybrid part was dog 1-2 because you can't do helical dog engagement that I'm aware. I didn't see any option for a full syncro box
Ok, so to re-emphasize, and there is nothing abnormal about what he's saying.

He's say dog engagement with a straight cut 1-2 and helical 3-5 (which actually reminds me of my old PAR dog).
Seriously, did I miss a post somewhere? Trying to proof some of what's posted. He had mentioned separately that there would be a syncro engagement box available too.

As for Phil's post, talking about the transfer gears to change the ratios; the wording is a little misleading. I can elaborate more on drop gear options for front to rear but that gives a front diff torque bias.

We are still talking and waiting on ratios. I gave the uber mother load list of ratios several months back, including track oriented ratios that I would like to see but we haven't heard anything back from EMCO, as ratios are obviously strongly limited by tooth design.

-Micah McMahan
3MI Racing

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 08-21-2013 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 08-21-2013, 09:36 AM   #154
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I'm glad you're targeting 3.9 final drive as I agree that makes the most sense.
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Old 08-21-2013, 09:52 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post

Ok, so to re-emphasize, and there is nothing abnormal about what he's saying.

He's say dog engagement with a straight cut 1-2 and helical 3-5 (which actually reminds me of my old PAR dog).
Seriously, did I miss a post somewhere? Trying to proof some of what's posted. He had mentioned separately that there would be a syncro engagement box available too.

As for Phil's post, talking about the transfer gears to change the ratios; the wording is a little misleading. I can elaborate more on drop gear options for front to rear but that gives a front diff torque bias.

We are still talking and waiting on ratios. I gave the uber mother load list of ratios several months back, including track oriented ratios that I would like to see but we haven't heard anything back from EMCO, as ratios are obviously strongly limited by tooth design.

-Micah McMahan
3MI Racing
That makes sense if what you are saying is what they are proposing. So there will be a 1-2 spur/synchro, 3/4/5 helical syncro set, but 2k more than ppg? Maybe I need to think about taking the power cut and going dog
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:53 AM   #156
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It might be my reading skills at this hour but what is the cost of the complete dog box (Straight cut)?
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:57 AM   #157
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It might be my reading skills at this hour but what is the cost of the complete dog box (Straight cut)?
Best I can tell is a "little bit more" than 6750
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:59 AM   #158
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6750 + forks + diffs, so 'a little bit more' is my guess too
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:00 AM   #159
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Best I can tell is a "little bit more" than 6750
Ah ok so I didn't miss it then, thanks!
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:52 AM   #160
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I'm not offering a complete spur gear dog box.

you have the choice of:

1-2 spur cut dog engagement with 3-5 helical dog engagement

or

1-2 spur gear syncromesh 3-5 syncromesh

you can do a syncromesh spur, its just going to take away from the spur gear itself because the syncro's are electron beam welded and the case is only so big so you need to allow room for the rest of the gears.

as for the drop gear comment. Micah understands this stuff a lot better than I do.

I'm learning about a lot of this as I go as well. So if something doesn't make sense I do apologize, Anthony had just told me that we would be able to adjust the final by swapping out the drop gear (transfer gear and shaft) so that ring and pinions wouldn't have to be swapped but I may have misunderstood.

-Phil
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:07 PM   #161
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Warfield, I'll hit you up later and fill you in.
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:09 PM   #162
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The Transfer gears/drop gears are in the tail section and are what controls the ratio going to the rear differential.

From 2002 - 2005, WRX's have a 1.1:1 transfer gear, and that is why their rear ring and pinion is 3.545 (makes it a 3.9 final with the transfer ratio). From 2008 on, the transfer ratio is now 1:1 and the rear R&P is a simple 3.9 ratio.

So depending on what rear diff you are running, and the ratio of the R&P in that diff, you would need one drop gear ratio or another.

For cars making a lot more power, you would want to change there out as well, as they would be the weak point if you retained the stock gears.
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:26 PM   #163
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Warfield, I'll hit you up later and fill you in.
Roger that!
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:29 PM   #164
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Correct. There is one other 1.1:1 r&p option that you can run, which Dom of Maxwell Power told me last week...well it's close enough
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Old 08-22-2013, 12:36 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by FlatironsTuning.com View Post

From 2002 - 2005, WRX's have a 1.1:1 transfer gear, and that is why their rear ring and pinion is 3.545 (makes it a 3.9 final with the transfer ratio). From 2008 on, the transfer ratio is now 1:1 and the rear R&P is a simple 3.9 ratio.
I think they wanted to use up the SVX rear diffs that they over produced for what they sold.
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Old 08-22-2013, 03:17 PM   #166
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Post 368:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ht=914&page=15
We've been doing helical dog gear conversions for more than a decade. They just aren't as strong as straight cut. But clearly they can take a beating:


So to answer the earlier question, no, there is no reason you cannot make a helical geared dog box.
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Old 08-31-2013, 12:57 PM   #167
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Sounds pricey...why not just upgrade to sti transmission with the extra gear
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Old 08-31-2013, 01:26 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by wolfmanRX View Post
Sounds pricey...why not just upgrade to sti transmission with the extra gear
You must not have read the thread, so Cliff notes:

Largest gains come from
1.) 80 lbs weight savings in transmissions (not counting R180 swap weight if needed).
2.) Faster shifts from the dog engagement.
3.) With dog engagement you can take advantage of using a strain gauge on the shift run to run an interrupt for up shifts.

Don't even use the clutch, just move the shifter. Downshifts, well trying to incorporate a blip would be really tricky.

4.) not so sure I think of this is a perk but just a difference; you don't have to do a 6-spd conversion. You just swap out your 5-spd.

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 08-31-2013 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 08-31-2013, 01:42 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfmanRX View Post
Sounds pricey...why not just upgrade to sti transmission with the extra gear
If you do a six speed swap proper, I guarantee unless that is a stolen six speed it will cost you more money in the long run.

Swap hubs, correct drive shaft, dccd controller, there's a lot more than just a transmission.


Just an FYI

-Phil
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Old 08-31-2013, 01:58 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
Post 368:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ht=914&page=15
We've been doing helical dog gear conversions for more than a decade. They just aren't as strong as straight cut. But clearly they can take a beating:

Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz3wQMgwKr0

So to answer the earlier question, no, there is no reason you cannot make a helical geared dog box.
( I know you know this Matt) but It seams that a majority of the potential customers need some education.

And the reason is because you can have a nice and wide gear that has the surface area to accept all the torque and loading.

Which is why I'm having EMCO develop a 1-2 spur with a wide gear profile, dog engagement. And then switch to helical dog engagement for 3-5 the ket to this whole deal is *Materials used* heat treatments and gear surface prep.

I wish I could send every one a sample of an EMCO gear. I have pics but those don't do the gears justice.

To be able to feel the highly mirrored polish, beveled cut tooth profile. There are NO sharp edges what so ever period on any of the gears.

But its the quality of materials used along with heat treating, carbonizing blah blah blah.

I say blah blah blah because I don't know all their proprietary secrets nor will I ever.

Anyone who follows road racing knows that EMCO and Xtrac are the some of the best and biggest names in the business!

-Phil

Last edited by Flat 4 Motorsport; 08-31-2013 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 09-01-2013, 01:15 PM   #171
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I have yet to see a 5 speed split casing box stand up to beatings.
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Old 09-01-2013, 02:21 PM   #172
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600whp isnt a beating?
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Old 09-01-2013, 02:28 PM   #173
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So what does one need to swap out to go from 6 speed to 5?
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Old 09-01-2013, 07:12 PM   #174
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Depends on what year rear diff you have. But if your going to build a 5mt you can build it with or without stub shafts and the ratio that suits your rear diff.

The cheapest would be the trans and linkage, a clutch and flywheel, a driveshaft and that's all I can think of.
The dss will make you a 5mt shaft with a r180 yoke if that's what you want or you can change the companion flange on the rearend.
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:17 PM   #175
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Phil, any special price for the first 20 buyers? The group buy:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2258560

Or are U$ 6750 the final price?
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