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Old 03-01-2013, 06:37 PM   #1
shad0vvfax
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Default 3port, stage2 disaster...

I installed a 3port grimmspeed on my 02 wrx and tweaked the wastegate duty cycle tables(did both high and low tables, was not sure about compensation tables so I left them alone) *0.70 (minus 30%) using AccessRACER and loaded the tweaked stage2 map to my car and it caused my car to run horrible. It caused a IAC (fail safe) code and the car was sputtering and jerking and idled real high. I did not think a 3port could cause so much problems. Any suggestions. Reinstalled the stock solenoid and OTS stage2 map and the car ran perfectly fine. Why did it cause so many issues. I thought it could only cause overboost problems...

current mods are full TBE, silicone turbo inlet, stage2 map, AEM CAI, and if it matters..New front O2 sensor mounted after the turbo on the downpipe(to replace the one on the exhaust manifold). No rear O2.

Brand new timing belt and components, all new cam/crank seals, rear main seal, new oil/water pumps, new clutch and 05 trans
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Last edited by shad0vvfax; 03-02-2013 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 03-02-2013, 04:10 AM   #2
jebjkey
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I assume "IAC" is Idle Air Control Valve.

A 3port should not cause those problems.

Did you move the front O2 at the same time as the 3port install? I would leave the stock O2 sensor in the manifold where it belongs [as recommended by Cobb and, I am sure, many other tuners as well].

Re-install the 3port, paying very careful attention to the routing of the boost control lines to ensure they are routed correctly ane will not leak. Try again and see what happens.

A bad idle following an EBCS install is an indication that you have a vacuum leak. Since you have already done some troubleshooting by putting the stock EBCS back on and the car did not exhibit the same problems, either there is something wrong with the 3port EBCS internally [not likely] or you had a bad install [most likely senario].
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Old 03-02-2013, 09:48 AM   #3
shad0vvfax
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I did try it without the new O2 sensor hooked up that I relocated and it made no difference. Will check vac hose routing and check for leaks. Do you know if you have to modify both the High and Low WGDC tables or just the High, and do you need to modify the WGDC compensation tables?

Last edited by shad0vvfax; 03-02-2013 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 03-03-2013, 03:35 AM   #4
jebjkey
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The stock O2 sensor should be connected and in the OEM location. A WB O2 sensor is great after the turbo, but not the stock O2 sensor.

It is easier to think of the two tables below using a slightly different name:
-Wastegate Duty Cycles (Low) = Wastegate Duty Cycles (Target)
-Wastegate Duty Cycles (High) = Wastegate Duty Cycles (Max)


My tables are not all the same as they are for your car, I have an 05 STi, but I will try and explain how they work.

It all starts with:
-Wastegate Duty Cycles (Low): WDC is initially set based on this table's value for your current throttle position and RPM (although I believe that your table is based off throttle position only). If boost is at the target value, then all is good. If boost is not at the target value, then other tables below control what WDC does from this point on.

-Turbo Dynamics Continuous: This table defines how the ECU will adjust WDC to maintain boost at its target value. - values apply when boost is above the target value and + values apply when boost is below the target value . Based on the amount of boost error (- or +), the ECU will adjust WDC using this table. If the values are too high, you will have problems with boost oscillating around your target values. If the values are too low, you will have problems keeping boost at your target values. How far off your WDC (Low) values are [from the WDC that will give you target boost] combined with this table's values being too high/low will determine how well you hold target boost.

-Turbo Dynamics Burst: This table is very similar to TD Continuous except the corrections to WDC only apply when there is a large swing in boost error (e.g. - to + or + to -). Otherwise it works just like TD Continuous above. Values too high in this table could cause spiking and values too low could cause boost build slowly.

These tables are going to have values that will be too high for a 3port EBCS. What you want to do in order to set them correctly is multiply them by the approximate ratio that you have lowered you WDC (Low) table by. For example, if your previous WDC (Low) values were between 50 and 75 and now you hit target boost using WDC between 35 and 50. You have lowered your WDC by ~30%, so to tune the tables above simply multiply the WDC Correction % values by 0.7. With WDC (Low) values and these tables set correctly, boost should hit target values without spiking initially or oscillating as RPM rises. [Remember, small variations in boost is completly normal. If your target boost is 15.0#, do not expect that you will hit 15.0# and then stay at exactly 15.0#. There are min and max boost errors that are required before the ECU will adjust WDC, additionally, the world is just not that perfect.]

-WDC (High): This table will set an upper limit for WDC based on current throttle position and RPM. Values in this table should be above the WDC (Low) values and generally are ~10 higher. But remember, you want the WDC (Low) values to be good numbers to hit target boost so you do not have WDC riding the limits in the WDC (High) table. Wastegate Duty Cycles Compensation (Intake Temp) is the table you adjust to make sure you do not overboost in the winter and underboost in the summer.

Yes, you should adjust the Turbo Dynamics tables by a factor (0.7 or otherwise) based on the % amount of your adjustment to the WDC (Low) table as well as modifing the WDC (High) table based on the new WDC (Low) values.

You need to know what IAT (or outside temp at least) is when you are tuning boost so that when temperatures are vastly different, you can adjust the IAT comp table to allow you to maintain target boost all year using the same WDC tables.


Did you find any issues with the boost control lines?
How is your idle / jerking following reinstalltion of the 3port?
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Old 03-03-2013, 11:21 AM   #5
shad0vvfax
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Here is a quick shot of all my available tables in AccessRACER. I did multiply all four tables(WGDC high/low, TD burst/cont.) by 0.70(30%) to start. I did not touch the WGDC comp tables because I was not 100% sure on those ones. Once I get a chance to put the 3port back on and flash it I will update with the results.

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Old 03-04-2013, 08:54 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shad0vvfax View Post
I installed a 3port grimmspeed on my 02 wrx and tweaked the wastegate duty cycle tables(did both high and low tables, was not sure about compensation tables so I left them alone) *0.70 (minus 30%) using AccessRACER and loaded the tweaked stage2 map to my car and it caused my car to run horrible. It caused a IAC (fail safe) code and the car was sputtering and jerking and idled real high. I did not think a 3port could cause so much problems. Any suggestions. Reinstalled the stock solenoid and OTS stage2 map and the car ran perfectly fine. Why did it cause so many issues. I thought it could only cause overboost problems...

current mods are full TBE, silicone turbo inlet, stage2 map, AEM CAI, and if it matters..New front O2 sensor mounted after the turbo on the downpipe(to replace the one on the exhaust manifold). No rear O2.

Brand new timing belt and components, all new cam/crank seals, rear main seal, new oil/water pumps, new clutch and 05 trans
Hi there. Sorry for your troubles.

What was the specific check engine light code you had? Any idle air control code will have nothing to do with a properly installed 3-port BCS and no adjustment that you made to the wastegate tables could have caused this. Keep in mind that reflashing the ECU clears any trouble codes (and check engine light) and therefore flashing another map may appear to solve the problem when all that occurred was that the ECU was cleared and it can take some time (and sometimes specific conditions to be met) before the code is set again with the same mechanical problem.

The front o2 must absolutely be in the factory location. The factory ECU accounts for the factory location of the sensor and is not designed to account for a sensor that has been moved a notable distance. This could most certainly cause fueling oscillations and idle issues. You need to put the sensor back in the factory location before doing anything else. Even if it didn't specifically cause the CEL you are seeing, it still must be in the factory location.

Also, keep in mind that AEM intake is not compatible with our off-the-shelf (OTS) maps. If you are using the original MAF calibration, then you will need to custom tune for the intake. Although this wouldn't cause idle air control codes, it can potentially cause load errors which results in fueling and timing errors (and potential engine damage, depending on the severity of the error). You will need a wideband o2 sensor to tune for the intake.

Bill
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:31 PM   #7
shad0vvfax
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The old O2 sensor in the OEM location is frozen in the manifold. I could not get it out for the life of me and it was 3am so that is why I put it directly after the turbo in the nearest closest spot. I will keep trying though. I can not remember the exact code but the accessport said something like "Idle Air Control (Fail Safe)". I think it may have been P0519, after a few google searches, it looked very familiar. Like I said, it was jerking and hesitating real bad and the idle was erratic. It kept going up and down and up and down then it was fine for a few seconds then up and down again. After I took off the 3port and flashed with the OTS stage 2 map it was fine and still is, no codes at all after a few days. As far as the AEM intake, I did not receive the stock one when I purchased the car, it came with the AEM one on it, so I have no choice until I get some money to buy another. If I spend the cash and get a wideband O2 instead of a new intake, can I compensate myself for the AEM intake?
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:04 AM   #8
Cobb Tuning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shad0vvfax View Post
The old O2 sensor in the OEM location is frozen in the manifold. I could not get it out for the life of me and it was 3am so that is why I put it directly after the turbo in the nearest closest spot. I will keep trying though. I can not remember the exact code but the accessport said something like "Idle Air Control (Fail Safe)". I think it may have been P0519, after a few google searches, it looked very familiar. Like I said, it was jerking and hesitating real bad and the idle was erratic. It kept going up and down and up and down then it was fine for a few seconds then up and down again. After I took off the 3port and flashed with the OTS stage 2 map it was fine and still is, no codes at all after a few days. As far as the AEM intake, I did not receive the stock one when I purchased the car, it came with the AEM one on it, so I have no choice until I get some money to buy another. If I spend the cash and get a wideband O2 instead of a new intake, can I compensate myself for the AEM intake?
Try "Liquid Wrench" on the old sensor - let it sit overnight and then spray again and let it sit for an hour or so and try again. If you can't get it out, stock used manifolds are inexpensive to acquire, so that would be another option. But, regardless, it has to be done some way to get the front o2 back to the stock location

If you feel comfortable tuning, you can tune for an aftermarket intake via the Accesstuner software if you have a wideband o2 sensor. Our tuning guide explains how to do this (first link at the following page):
https://forums.cobbtuning.com/forums...and-Worksheets

Our Cobb SF intake is compatible with our mapping for this car, so that is an option if you do not want to tune for a different intake (obviously the stock intake is also compatible with our mapping as well).

Bill
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:22 AM   #9
jebjkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shad0vvfax View Post
The old O2 sensor in the OEM location is frozen in the manifold. I could not get it out for the life of me and it was 3am so that is why I put it directly after the turbo in the nearest closest spot. I will keep trying though.
First, I assume that you are using an offset O2 socket. If not, get one. Second, if you have not already, trim the heat shield around the front O2 sensor so that you can remove the heat shield before you remove the O2 sensor. This allows much better access to the O2 sensor and could help out. Make sure you put penetrating oil on there and let it sit. This picture shows you the basic idea for the heat shield trim.



Quote:
Originally Posted by shad0vvfax View Post
I can not remember the exact code but the accessport said something like "Idle Air Control (Fail Safe)". I think it may have been P0519, after a few google searches, it looked very familiar. Like I said, it was jerking and hesitating real bad and the idle was erratic. It kept going up and down and up and down then it was fine for a few seconds then up and down again. After I took off the 3port and flashed with the OTS stage 2 map it was fine and still is, no codes at all after a few days.
It could have been a fluke occurance. I would try again since the 3port and IAC valve do not have anything to do with each other directly. The only possibility is you had a vacuum leak that was causing havoc with the IAC valve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shad0vvfax View Post
As far as the AEM intake, I did not receive the stock one when I purchased the car, it came with the AEM one on it, so I have no choice until I get some money to buy another. If I spend the cash and get a wideband O2 instead of a new intake, can I compensate myself for the AEM intake?
I bought my car with an aftermarket intake that I did not want. I found a stock airbox for really cheap and installed that. No need to tune for the intake if you go that route.

Yes, you can use ATR to tune for the AEM intake. It takes some time and is best on a dyno. Dyno's cost money, so the next best is to datalog on the street. Start with closed loop and adjust MAF reading based on AF Learning values. Work your way up form idle to zone D. To calibrate the rest of the MAF table you use your WB that you just bought and include it and Commanded Fuel Final in you datalogs. You need to be open loop so start with some partial throttle runs and work your way up to WOT runs from there. Do not try and get everything perfect because you never will. Remeber, AF Learning values of + / - 5% are good. Your AF Learning values will change often so do not be surprised when you are trying to tune the upper portions of the MAF table and you get a slightly different reading each time. Go with an average and in the end you should shoot for good AF Learning values and WB AFR values relatively close to (and consistent with, so not swinging above and below) Commanded Fuel Final values.



I see Cobb posted while I was typing so some things might be redundant.
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:13 AM   #10
shad0vvfax
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I have no heat shields because I had the motor and trans out and removed them all to do the timing belt/water pump/oil pump/seals/etc etc etc. I am using the stock manifold but I heat wrapped the whole thing plus the new uppipe. I have also been spraying pb blaster on the O2 sensor and I am using a crow's foot socket. Hopefully it will come out, if not I may just buy a aftermarket manifold. I have been keeping an eye on my AF ratio with the sensor still on the downpipe using my AccessPORT and it seems to be staying between 13-15 for the most part. I have seen it spike to like 22-24 only when I shift and don't let off the gas the whole way. I have been being very easy on the car especially with the new clutch. One more thing, if I manage to get the 3port back on and the thing does not do what it did the first time, what should I keep an eye on in the AccessPORT to make sure it is running properly and not doing more harm then good? What values do I need to watch and in what range should they be in using the stage2 map?

Last edited by shad0vvfax; 03-05-2013 at 03:45 PM.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:30 PM   #11
jebjkey
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An offset O2 socket will work MUCH better than a crow's foot. They do not cost much and should be available at any autoparts store around you. If it is completely stuck, an exhaust shop may be able to remove it without damaging the manifold.

The default logging parameters are a great place to start with for the important parameters to keep an eye on. Knock parameters and AF Learning parameters are good to keep an eye to see how they are changing. AF Learning values should be + / - 5% and knock should be none to minimal/rarely.

The stock O2 sensor does not read anything above 22-24. If the injectors shut off, AFR will quickly jump up to 22-24. You should see the jump every time you lift your foot from the gas pedal.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:03 PM   #12
shad0vvfax
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It is an offset 02 socket, not sure why I even said crows foot...my bad.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:57 PM   #13
jebjkey
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Cool. If it will not come out, check with an exhaust shop for help and/or start looking for used stock manifolds.

You could also put aftermarket headers on the car. I just picked up a used Tomei EL header for a great price. I will be installing it when I get back home next month.
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