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Old 03-05-2013, 11:58 AM   #26
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:04 PM   #27
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This is getting OT, but whatevs (don't hurt me BigElm). IMHO, disliking electric motors for the sake of disliking electric motors is kinda silly. What's not to like? Cleaner, extremely efficient, instantaneous torque and the list goes on. There's no reason a car driven by an electric motor(s) can't be as much or more fun than a car with an internal combustion engine (once the battery tech advances enough to fix the issues with range). The day when electric motors start to completely replace internal combustion engines is coming. The only thing holding them back right now is battery tech. Might as well embrace it now to save yourself some disappointment down the road.
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:18 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott_gunn View Post
The electrical components give it:

- Allow it to have a higher revving engine (9250 RPM redline, optimized for power at higher RPMs)
- More torque across the RPM range
- Lower center of gravity
- Better fuel efficiency
- Smaller overall "package" due to removal of alternator
- Better power/weight ratio

Seems like it is not just technology for the sake of technology.
Not that I disagree with you in principle but the whole added weight thing is what Scrappy seems to be talking about. How do you know the power/ weight ratio is better with the added electric drive-train and batteries, has it been stated by Ferrari somewhere that it is?

The added weight has always been the argument against adding the hybrid system to performance cars. Look at what happened the first year F1 used KERS, for the most part the non-kers equipped cars were faster only because they could move the weight around to where they wanted and didn't have packaging constraints. They all had to be the same weight and the kers cars had an extra 80hp. The only reason they went back to using it was they all agreed to after some incentive from the FIA.

While I am glad Ferrari, Porsche, and McLaren are making these cars. If I were in the market (read: had the $$$$$$$) for a supercar I would prefer it to be either pure combustion or pure electric because the integration of the two powertrains necessitates engineering solutions that are overly complicated IMO.
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:25 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elirentz View Post
While I am glad Ferrari, Porsche, and McLaren are making these cars. If I were in the market (read: had the $$$$$$$) for a supercar I would prefer it to be either pure combustion or pure electric because the integration of the two powertrains necessitates engineering solutions that are overly complicated IMO.
Right, because if you have $$$$$$$ you're going to want any car you buy to be simple enough to wrench on in your garage.
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:47 PM   #30
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Right, because if you have $$$$$$$ you're going to want any car you buy to be simple enough to wrench on in your garage.
If I had $$$$$$ I'd still shop at walmart for everything but furniture, clothing, and electronics, work on my own cars, and buy econ class plane tickets. The car is cool, but the tech is far from being able to grab my attention in terms of performance. I'll be a late adopter with this tech for sure, because it's going to be a long time b4 they come out with an electric car that weighs, costs, and has the range of ICE cars. As long as electricity prices are cheaper than gas and we pocket all the revenue instead of the middle east, I'm all for it coming eventually though.
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:02 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e11ys View Post
This is getting OT, but whatevs (don't hurt me BigElm). IMHO, disliking electric motors for the sake of disliking electric motors is kinda silly. What's not to like? Cleaner, extremely efficient, instantaneous torque and the list goes on. There's no reason a car driven by an electric motor(s) can't be as much or more fun than a car with an internal combustion engine (once the battery tech advances enough to fix the issues with range). The day when electric motors start to completely replace internal combustion engines is coming. The only thing holding them back right now is battery tech. Might as well embrace it now to save yourself some disappointment down the road.
I am glad you like them, but they are dull, quiet, blender motors. I have driven indoor 'performance' single speed karts that are gas driven and ones that are electric. The sounds, vibration, power delivery of the gas karts is something I prefer.

electric motors tend to feel like they are running out of steam up top, where a good ICE builds and feels great as she revs. You are getting to hung up on numbers and not what it FEELS like to drive a great car. There is substacially more to a car than numbers. Being able to pop the hood and seeing a beautiful motor. Hearing that glorious sound of a well tuned exhaust. Electric cars are just blenders by comparison. Pretty blenders, but blenders none the less.

elirentz picked up on what I was saying and I agree with his assessment. I would rather have a pure car one way or the other, and would prefer of course the one that burns dead dinos.
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:03 PM   #32
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Right, because if you have $$$$$$$ you're going to want any car you buy to be simple enough to wrench on in your garage.
No again, you are missing the point. These kinds of technological cram fests tend to get in the way. Sure they work, but puts so many levels of technology between you and the road. Some people do not care, others do.
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:05 PM   #33
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If I had $$$$$$ I'd still shop at walmart for everything but furniture, clothing, and electronics, work on my own cars, and buy econ class plane tickets.
Work on your cars? Sure.The rest?

Then again, some people are just cheap like that. If I had money, I'd spend/donate it because you can't take it with you.
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:07 PM   #34
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Scrappy/elirentz - Ferrarri states the electrical system improves the power/weight ratio on the website linked in the first post. It also states the torque from the electrical motor gave them freedom to optimize the V12 for high RPM power delivery, which probably is the main reason this car is going to sound, drive, and be awesome.

I realize it may be all marketing fluff but it seems reasonable to assume that if Ferrarri could make a faster one without this HY-KERS system, they would. We'll see. If this ends up being the best performing Ferrarri, then score one for the hybrid system.
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:10 PM   #35
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torquemada, THANKS for posting that video...
It proves my point exactly.
What gets your arm hair on end when you see that video is the sound of that spectacularly tuned engine. It makes you want to drive and let the revs climb and sing.

At no time did I ever think to say, wow that electric motor supplemental system sure sounds great.

taking that to the n'th degree that e11ys wants, and say all cars will be pure electric down the road. The day the sound of an electric motor can stir the emotions like the sound of that 800 HP Ferrari engine at 8000+ rpm will be the day hell freezes over.

Or does the sound of Ferrari engine at full song just irritate you?

There is plenty of reasons not to like a transition to EV, but that is another thread. The sounds of a sports car are at least half of what make it a joy to drive.
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:20 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott_gunn View Post
Scrappy/elirentz - Ferrarri states the electrical system improves the power/weight ratio on the website linked in the first post. It also states the torque from the electrical motor gave them freedom to optimize the V12 for high RPM power delivery, which probably is the main reason this car is going to sound, drive, and be awesome.

I realize it may be all marketing fluff but it seems reasonable to assume that if Ferrarri could make a faster one without this HY-KERS system, they would. We'll see. If this ends up being the best performing Ferrarri, then score one for the hybrid system.
If Ferrari said it, then it must be true... they never lie.

But having said that, I am sure they were able to fine tune a motor to not to have to make much power down low, but how much time on a track do you spend taking off from a stop?

And no, I do not believe the battery bits made the motor sound that way. Take them out and I promise you it would sound Just as spectacular. The 458 sounds like a symphony of awesome, and does not have any of these bits. A motor that revs to 9200 is going to sound just like a motor that revs to 9200 with an electric motor. The electric motor probably made it faster in a straight line I have no doubt.

They did not have to worry about it pulling from idle anymore I guess. So they could cam it up. Take away the electric bits and the car would probably be slower (but lighter) but it would no doubt sound the same or close enough to the same as you would not care. (<--educated guess)

The veyron has a great power to weight ratio, but still feels heavy and drives heavy until it gets to the straights. Weight is weight.

I mean, if I had to have an Electric motor on my car, I think this implementation is probably how I would like it. But as of now, I do not have to have an electrical motor on my car.
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:39 PM   #37
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That's hella ugly. Looks like a heavily reworked FXX nose with 458 headlights.
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:19 PM   #38
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IMO the word "need" has no place in this thread, in any context. This isn't an engineering solution to any question that has any relevance to the real world. Whatever is considered the coolest and most cutting edge at the moment will be in cars like this, because that's why they exist.

Besides, I would be highly suspicious of any and all numbers coming out of Ferrari marketing anyway. Really, who's going to objectively put one of these cars on the scale, dyno it, and lap it without strict supervision from Ferrari? It's all irrelevant. If it looks and sounds cool on the internet, then enough billionaires will buy them and the pictures will go on the walls of teenage boys who will grow up to buy overpriced t-shirts at the local Ferrari store. Mission accomplished.
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Old 03-05-2013, 03:00 PM   #39
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F70 would have been a better name.
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Old 03-05-2013, 03:21 PM   #40
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Scrappy, it sounds like you're hung up on the sound of the engine more than anything. I guess in your opinion a pure, true "sports car" must be 100% internal combustion with a loud, naturally aspirated engine and all mechanical components (no drive by wire, anti-lock brakes, yaw control, etc). Would a carburetor add to the "pure" experience? Fuel injection involves all that complicated electronic wizardry...

The bottom line is that everyone has different needs and preferences. When I think of a "pure" sports car, I'm thinking more about the steering feel and the way the tires, suspension and chassis responds to driver inputs. If there happens to be an electric motor providing propulsion, so be it. I think a high performance electric motor sounds pretty awesome in it's own way. Different isn't always a bad thing.
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Old 03-05-2013, 03:46 PM   #41
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I thought Ferrari was recovering with the 458.. then this happens. Damn, that's one stupid looking nose.
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Old 03-05-2013, 03:48 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Wa wa wa waaaaaaaaaaambulance
Seriously? Why do you need 300hp? You'll never truly make use of it on the street. Like you said these are for people who care more about numbers for bragging rights. To that I say wtf do you care? You are not even close to being in the same circles as people who bought something 1/4th the price for the same reason. What does driving experience matter in a case where 99% of the buyers will never ever truly push the car past a straight highway sprint.

And as weird as it sounds- we need these douchebags. They are the reason we get trickle down tech like this. If they aren't the ones footing the massively stupid bills to own such cars in the first place- our econoboxes wouldn't be where they are today. So again- **** about driving experience for a car you'll never own but will in the future be able to enjoy the fruits of it's existence.
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Old 03-05-2013, 03:51 PM   #43
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Never said it was. But different is not always good either.

And you are 100% right, we all have different preferences. You are not WRONG for liking what you like. But neither am I. I do not expect you to change your mind based on my beliefs. IF you want to go all EV, then so be it.


And just FYI, yes, a nice carburetor sounds AMAZING! (3 webers sounds intoxicatingly good!). But I accept Fuel injection as a necessary evil.

I absoutely HATE drive by wire. Always have. It feels artificial and lazy.

I have already said I think Antilock brakes are a good thing. Just as good as seat belts!

Stability control is great if you can turn it off, or if it is so unobtrusive you never notice it.

The sound is just one part. I am hung up on the things you cannot easily measure. The things that actually matter. The sound and feel of an internal combustion engine is not something that shows up on the review page of motor trend. THe way an internal combustion engine sounds, the way the power builds as revs climb, the way it feels when its running. It is a feast for the senses. It forms an involving and encompassing experience that mashing a go pedal in a single geared EV can never produce.
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Old 03-05-2013, 03:57 PM   #44
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Seriously? Why do you need 300hp? You'll never truly make use of it on the street. Like you said these are for people who care more about numbers for bragging rights. To that I say wtf do you care? You are not even close to being in the same circles as people who bought something 1/4th the price for the same reason. What does driving experience matter in a case where 99% of the buyers will never ever truly push the car past a straight highway sprint.

And as weird as it sounds- we need these douchebags. They are the reason we get trickle down tech like this. If they aren't the ones footing the massively stupid bills to own such cars in the first place- our econoboxes wouldn't be where they are today. So again- **** about driving experience for a car you'll never own but will in the future be able to enjoy the fruits of it's existence.

Me ****, you must be have me confused with somebody who will listen to a total stranger...your funny.


All I said was 800 HP was insane and it did not need an electric motor. Then I supported this cars manufacture and production and went further to say it was cool!


And just so I know, what technology has ferrari invented that has trickled down to the Subaru or VW I own today? Because I do not know off hand.
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:18 PM   #45
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It has a KERS system because that's the state of the art. The F-series Ferraris have always been about that. But you're right, they totally should have omitted it because some dweeb in Texas is afraid of technology.
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:10 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by scott_gunn View Post
Scrappy/elirentz - Ferrarri states the electrical system improves the power/weight ratio on the website linked in the first post. It also states the torque from the electrical motor gave them freedom to optimize the V12 for high RPM power delivery, which probably is the main reason this car is going to sound, drive, and be awesome.

I realize it may be all marketing fluff but it seems reasonable to assume that if Ferrarri could make a faster one without this HY-KERS system, they would. We'll see. If this ends up being the best performing Ferrarri, then score one for the hybrid system.
Ferrrarrri.

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Old 03-05-2013, 08:07 PM   #47
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It has a KERS system because that's the state of the art. The F-series Ferraris have always been about that. But you're right, they totally should have omitted it because some dweeb in Texas is afraid of technology.
Beware the wrath of Skywaffles...

Disagree with him and you get called a horrible name.

Beware the waffle... His wrath is legendary!

You are such a funny little man.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:09 PM   #48
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You are such a funny little man.
The same can be said about you after reading your comments in this thread.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:19 PM   #49
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I'm all for good debates, but seriously, now it's getting elementary.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:49 PM   #50
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Um you do know that electric motors are far more primative machines than Internal Combustion Engines right?

I can get stuck in what I like. Change for the sake of change is not always a good thing. I have accepted fuel injection, anti lock brakes, and even stability control in some cases. Change for the sake of change is dumb. Change for the improvement of the product is good. IF and only IF you agree what is being improved needed to be improved in the first place.

You blindly embrace all technology with open arms. I do not. Still this car is doing what it is designed to do. Be a techology showcase while making a $$$ ton of money.

And it looks cool.
Don't be ignorant, you know what I mean.

This is not change for the sake of change. It's called innovation. Automotive design has reached its peaks decades ago, gotta have to come up with something fresh.

Any car in any era is a technology showcase. The F70 would be primitive in a decade, who knows what they will come up with.

I'm still waiting for a hover car and I bet exotics will be the first to bring the technology to the market. There are hovering car prototypes, but i'm talking about when it is done right.
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