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Old 08-01-2010, 09:13 PM   #1
punker39
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Default STi stage 2 vs. WRX stage 2

Ive got my 04 wrx and one of my buddys 05 sti. We both have a stage two tune from the same tuner testes1010 (by the way a good guy). We both have the same mods on our cars. Now I know that the sti starts out with 300hp stock and the wrx starts out at 200 something. We are both running the same boost around 18 psi. So my question is what can i do or need to do to get up to his level of performance with my wrx? I know that he has bigger injectors, little bit larger turbo, bigger TMIC, and .5 more displacement. Now i donot want to buy a new block for that .5 more displacement so if i get the same size injectors, turbo and TMIC what will that get me? Im just wondering what is making the difference when he is running the same boost as i am but is getting more power than i am?

I know this is kinda a dumb question but just looking for some insight
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Old 08-01-2010, 09:23 PM   #2
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I'm not being a smartass, but what do you mean by level of performance? Peak HP? Torque? 1/4 mile times, 0-60 times? What are you trying to do, Identify it and I'm sure someone can help out.

To answer your second question, going with the same turbo, injectors, and TMIC will yield similar top end, but will require more time to spool up than it will on your friend's 2.5l engine. I've driven an '05 WRX with those mods. It feels much more laggy than my STI, but the power is there (eventually).

And, since you're going to hear this eventually, do you have a plan in case your tranny breaks? It may, it may not, but it seems that it's considerably more likely at 300 HP than 200HP. My friend's 05 did destroy the tranny, but he was well over 100,000 miles (with probably around 35,000 or so on the larger turbo) before it did. In any case, you may want to plan ahead for the possibility.
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Old 08-01-2010, 09:49 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by punker39 View Post
Ive got my 04 wrx and one of my buddys 05 sti. We both have a stage two tune from the same tuner testes1010 (by the way a good guy). We both have the same mods on our cars. Now I know that the sti starts out with 300hp stock and the wrx starts out at 200 something. We are both running the same boost around 18 psi. So my question is what can i do or need to do to get up to his level of performance with my wrx? I know that he has bigger injectors, little bit larger turbo, bigger TMIC, and .5 more displacement. Now i donot want to buy a new block for that .5 more displacement so if i get the same size injectors, turbo and TMIC what will that get me? Im just wondering what is making the difference when he is running the same boost as i am but is getting more power than i am?

I know this is kinda a dumb question but just looking for some insight
there is a thread out there call VF xx vs sti stage 2 u should read some of that. and if i were u i would go with evoIII16g an sti top mount and bigger injectors ( bigger then pinks) that should make up for .5 displacement and should actually put u ahead of the stage 2 sti. If u are on a budget thats a great way to go.
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Old 08-01-2010, 10:31 PM   #4
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Well i would like to have the off the line power of the STi. Also i would like to know what would be needed to match the HP of the stage 2 STi. But i know that the gear ratios between the two are different. When i start in first it is slower than the STi but i can get to 60 mph faster than he can. Like Ruvim555 said was kinda what i thought was get bigger injectors and bigger TMIC with the turbo thing what about the blouch TDo4 job done? On the topic of the trans if i was to blow that up i would get it re done I like the 5 speed. The sti 6 speed it seems like to much shifting to get up to speed. let me know what you guys think?
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Old 08-01-2010, 10:46 PM   #5
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well you are competing with bigger heads and avcs as well as the .5 of displacement. the sti is altogether capable of moving more air more quickly. more air , more fuel , more power. there are compremises you can make to go faster than a stage 2 sti but you will wanna establish a budget, as well as a goal. you can bolt a lot of power onto the car but its only so long before you will need forged pistons, cams, bigger valves, meth, e85, headwork...the list can go on.

the ej205 can make decent power but there is no doubt the ej257 trumps it.

the 5 speed is lighter than the 6 speed, but to really build a 5 speed that can handle power you'll be spending big dollars on a built gear set/shafts. the stock 6 speed is pretty stout, up to 500whp? much cheaper to buy a used 6 speed than ppg's, although you need an auto or sti driveshaft w/ prop shaft.

i don't think its really a dramatic change in shifting between the 5 and 6 speeds unless you are WOT. you can set up the 6 speed to run 4th gear through the quarter mile traps.

you are in good hands here...bring on the questions...
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Old 08-02-2010, 12:11 AM   #6
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the ej257 is going to have alot more torque off the line then the ej205 although stock gearing in both the wrx has a advantage potential in the 1320
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Old 08-02-2010, 12:12 AM   #7
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to run with him you are going to need full bolt ons including turbo~

This means spark, fuel, exhaust front and back of turbo, Big topmount (for timing) and of course the all important turbo~

Trans can last if you dont launch it~
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Old 08-02-2010, 01:42 AM   #8
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If you have the money, get injectors, 16g, tmic, and eat him up.

If you dont have that much get injectors, a VF series, tmic and take him a by a lil bit depending on driving and such.

I've had the VF on my EJ205 and the 5MT is still fine, stock clutch, I rarely launch however. I have easily taken a Cobb OTS Stage 2 STi from a roll. 5 speed gearing with the VF 2.0l powerband is nice.
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Old 08-02-2010, 02:00 AM   #9
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when i had a vf39 on my 02 with pinks, big top mount, cobb base map and bolt ons i could take bolt on evos n sti's all day. just dont see it happening with the td04
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Old 08-02-2010, 04:51 AM   #10
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can i say something about this, guys? correct me if im wrong and dunt laugh at me.

i was running stock 205 with vf35, pinky, sti tmic, de-cat, equal-length manifold, prodrive 3 port and tuned by meself aswell with constently 1.3 bar boost (19.11psi) from 3500 way to 5500 ish. never on the dyno, im using airbly spreadsheet to count my whp and wtq as refernce. 244whp and 250wtq in the end. then i can take stock sti (207 JDM) on straight motorway.

from the stock JDM sti map, we can easily spot, boost on stock JDM sti is around 1.2 bar to 1.3 bar (different MY varies).

so, wot i have modded to my wrx is almost like stock sti, apart from the engine, but wrx is quicker. i thought i find the clue. the compression ratio on both are different, wrx is higher than sti.

thus i suppose, with same mods, same boost, 205 is quicker.

but beware, 207 is most strongest stock engine i have ever seen in EJ family, its reliable than rest of.

currently i got spec-c t20c701 engine swapped to my wrx with twin-scroll vf37. 207 is strong and stable, 8250 rpm fuel cut which is nice to me. my old 205 is end up with spun bearings, lol

custome made twin scroll up pipe with tial 38mm ewg, 750cc injectors, aps dr525 fmic are on the way home now, target boost 25psi, i will c wots difference.
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Old 08-02-2010, 09:08 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by punker39 View Post
Well i would like to have the off the line power of the STi. Also i would like to know what would be needed to match the HP of the stage 2 STi. But i know that the gear ratios between the two are different. When i start in first it is slower than the STi but i can get to 60 mph faster than he can. Like Ruvim555 said was kinda what i thought was get bigger injectors and bigger TMIC with the turbo thing what about the blouch TDo4 job done? On the topic of the trans if i was to blow that up i would get it re done I like the 5 speed. The sti 6 speed it seems like to much shifting to get up to speed. let me know what you guys think?
Swap engines.

Sorry.

If you want more power off the line, more displacement is the simple cure. Other than that, a nice small, quick spooling turbo will do you fine. However... you'll likely lose out in top end power when it runs out of steam (so to speak!)

If you want the same HP, bolt on an STI turbo (VF39,43, etc.) with bigger injectors and a tune. You will likely dyno around the same peak HP as your friend, but will have lower peak torque, and take a bit longer to build power due to the smaller displacement.

So really, if you want the equivalent low end grunt with the top end HP, build a 2.5l block. Or buy a stock 2.5 from an 06+ WRX or any STI.

As far as trannies go, if you want to keep the 5 speed, PPG gears seem the most popular way to go. Like I said, it isn't when your tranny will blow, but if. Just be prepared is all.

The six speed doesn't feel like too much shifting to me, but if you want to drag race, the wider spread 5 speed has the advantage. On a road course or autocross, being able to keep the engine near peak torque and HP with the 6 speed works out better. The 2007 STI and later has slightly taller gearing in the lower gears, and will go the 1/4 in 4th.
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Old 08-02-2010, 01:23 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by reddoak View Post
As far as trannies go, if you want to keep the 5 speed, PPG gears seem the most popular way to go. Like I said, it isn't when your tranny will blow, but if. Just be prepared is all.
You got that backwards I'm pretty sure there buddy.

PPGs are not a great solution because the Transmission Case is still weak and can fail. If you serious about a robust transmission a 6MT swap is the only way to go.
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Old 08-02-2010, 07:22 PM   #13
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I was just looking at some of our loggs and mine says that im hitting full boost at 3100 rpm. the Sti was only getting full boost at 3800 rpm. But his car feels so much stronger then mine so if i was to get bigger injectors? would that get some more fuel in there to get the job done? Also woudl the bigger sti TMIC give me some better flow and cool the air down better to get more power? cold air more fuel more power?
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Old 08-02-2010, 07:56 PM   #14
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You got that backwards I'm pretty sure there buddy.

PPGs are not a great solution because the Transmission Case is still weak and can fail. If you serious about a robust transmission a 6MT swap is the only way to go.
Tranny flex is what usually occurs. However, the tranny flex won't be enough to destroy the ppgs.
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Old 08-02-2010, 08:01 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by boost4life View Post
the ej257 is going to have alot more torque off the line then the ej205 although stock gearing in both the wrx has a advantage potential in the 1320
This^

His gearing is going to slow him down (shifting a lot) but his torque is going to spool.

You could rock a 20G with an external wastegate and either meth or 100+ oct tune and that should give him a run for his money... if you run from a roll remember to brake boost!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hella jdm y0 View Post
Tranny flex is what usually occurs. However, the tranny flex won't be enough to destroy the ppgs.
Not True at all! Ive seen many PPG sets go because of case flex... andrewtech actually offers bigger case bolts as an upgrade

despite popular belief PPG gears are definitely not bulletproof. Remember, you can gold plate a turd but in the end, you still have a turd. The sti 6 speed is still the strongest option. True, the gearing sucks for drag but i can definitely trade a little bit of time for a tough gearbox. Remember, the STI trans was designed for an 8k redline
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Old 08-02-2010, 09:30 PM   #16
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well you can destroy any thing given the right amout of effort. I have found in the past that if you tell someone that something is not able to be broken, they will break it. Its human nature if tell someone they cant do it they will
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Old 08-02-2010, 11:31 PM   #17
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vf39+ewg+e85 tune will destroy a stage 2 sti. You gonna need to upgrade the injectors to something big, like a modded stockers.
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Old 08-03-2010, 02:44 AM   #18
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well you can destroy any thing given the right amout of effort. I have found in the past that if you tell someone that something is not able to be broken, they will break it. Its human nature if tell someone they cant do it they will
STi 6spd is bulletproof
*Knocks on wood*
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Old 08-03-2010, 03:39 AM   #19
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Tranny flex is what usually occurs. However, the tranny flex won't be enough to destroy the ppgs.
Yeah, no. LOL
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Old 08-03-2010, 04:29 AM   #20
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Not True at all! Ive seen many PPG sets go because of case flex... andrewtech actually offers bigger case bolts as an upgrade
I've personally never seen it. The threads I've read were just about some of them breaking due to the car having too much power or improper installs. I'm not trying to call bs or anything, but I'd honestly like to see a thread about this.
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Old 08-03-2010, 02:52 PM   #21
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tune for e85 and mod for mod you will beat him.

or buy a 20g and call it a day. you'll never beat him on low range power so just accept it and go for top range. to help you with the bottom end though you could get headers EWG uppipe etc etc.
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Old 08-03-2010, 03:56 PM   #22
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vf39+ewg+e85 tune will destroy a stage 2 sti. You gonna need to upgrade the injectors to something big, like a modded stockers.
I'd vote this option.

Although, why set a goal of "beating a friend" why not make a goal to achieve with your car?

also, beating a bolt on STi is relative, what speed are you trying to beat him to? as people said the 6MT is better, but more shifting throughout say a 1/4 mile is going to slow him down.
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Old 08-03-2010, 06:39 PM   #23
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I'd honestly like to see a thread about this.
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Old 08-04-2010, 11:41 AM   #24
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the 5 speed glass box is really a lot of nasioc hype. i drove my stock 5 speed 140k before selling it. it still runs. i never really smashed the gears and it survived. i have seen cars with 30k break 5 speeds cause of "user error". i doubt everyone that has embarrassed themselves by improperly shifting and breaking their gearboxes , owns up to it. it doesn't really take much to break any tranny at 7k rpms, when shifted too quickly.
not to say torque alone won't break a set of gears that are only designed to handle 300whp max.

the sti 6 speed is designed to handle more tq/hp. end of story. race ready.

although, the design is really similar , the problem typically comes from constant abuse to the syncro sets , which wear down over time.

the plastic "fingers" on the shift forks wear as well. (poor design)

eventually the syncros do NOT slow the gear down ENOUGH for proper engagement and the gears do not mesh properly. the driver forces them together and bang!




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not so good^^^
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Old 08-06-2010, 02:28 PM   #25
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the 5 speed glass box is really a lot of nasioc hype. i drove my stock 5 speed 140k before selling it. it still runs. i never really smashed the gears and it survived. i have seen cars with 30k break 5 speeds cause of "user error". i doubt everyone that has embarrassed themselves by improperly shifting and breaking their gearboxes , owns up to it. it doesn't really take much to break any tranny at 7k rpms, when shifted too quickly.
not to say torque alone won't break a set of gears that are only designed to handle 300whp max.

the sti 6 speed is designed to handle more tq/hp. end of story. race ready.

although, the design is really similar , the problem typically comes from constant abuse to the syncro sets , which wear down over time.

the plastic "fingers" on the shift forks wear as well. (poor design)

eventually the syncros do NOT slow the gear down ENOUGH for proper engagement and the gears do not mesh properly. the driver forces them together and bang!




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good^^^





not so good^^^
Do aftermarket transmission braces help with case flex? or is there nothing that can really be done..
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