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Old 06-15-2013, 12:59 PM   #451
stevehnm
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Sorry, nothing I said was untrue, I quoted exactly what you quoted, CR now lists the redesigned Impreza on the "best fuel economy" list.

This is a direct quote of a true statement. The same car that you have already told us CR did not recommend for its "excellent fuel economy", though they did exactly that, previously: "Fuel economy is impressive given the standard all-wheel-drive".

Sounds like Consumer Reports doubled down on their praise, and you doubled down on your equivocation.

Try again...
I've always said CVT - like in the name of this thread. You are the one convoluting the conversation.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2477627
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Old 06-15-2013, 01:29 PM   #452
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I've always said CVT - like in the name of this thread. You are the one convoluting the conversation.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2477627
There you go again, being misleading. I know you said CVT, but did Consumer Reports? Let's fact check!

"Fuel-economy is impressive given the standard AWD"


Go to :32/:55 in that video, what is the transmission they are driving/reviewing/and praising for its impressive fuel-economy?

Hint, CVT! LOL

Last edited by Zeeper; 06-16-2013 at 08:45 AM. Reason: because I have a stalker who has nothing better to do than track my edits, lol
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Old 06-15-2013, 02:39 PM   #453
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There you go again, distorting the discussion. It's about how the CVT fails to perform as advertised, not if it has good mpg for an AWD.

Pretty revealing that they would choose the manual transmission mpg instead of the CVT I would say - overcoming a 3 mpg difference in advertised mpg.
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Old 06-15-2013, 03:39 PM   #454
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How is it failing to perform as advertised, there are plenty of cvt owners getting 36mpg+

Are you so vain that you think your 70mph+ driving and resultant poor mileage represents all CVT owners?

Or are they all just lying liars?

Last edited by Zeeper; 06-16-2013 at 08:47 AM. Reason: because I have a stalker who has nothing better to do than track my edits, lol
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Old 06-15-2013, 04:16 PM   #455
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This thread is getting ridiculous. Everyone just keeps talking in circles. I'm unsubscribing!
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Old 06-15-2013, 06:40 PM   #456
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This thread is getting ridiculous. Everyone just keeps talking in circles. I'm unsubscribing!
I don't blame you - it's become one of Zeeper's battlegrounds in his crusade to squelch any criticism about Subaru - and truth is not a requirement for his arguments.
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Old 06-15-2013, 10:56 PM   #457
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This thread is getting ridiculous. Everyone just keeps talking in circles. I'm unsubscribing!
it's only NOW getting ridiculous? it always has been
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Old 06-16-2013, 01:05 AM   #458
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How is it failing to perform as advertised, there are plenty of cvt owners getting 36mpg+

Are you so vain that you think your 70mph+ driving and resultant poor mileage represents all CVT owners?

Or are they all just lying liars?
LOL. Do you really think your fans are that simple? I got 50 mpg in my Impreza.
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Old 06-16-2013, 06:25 AM   #459
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LOL. Do you really think your fans are that simple? I got 50 mpg in my Impreza.
Well since you filed a complaint with the EPA, and believe you are completely and always right about everything, we all just need to wait for our check and/or TSB to arrive in the mail.

If we get one, due to the failure of Subaru to test according to the EPA guidelines, and thus Subaru is found to be in violation of the law, you win.

Otherwise, you lose.

Like many others here, I can predict who will prevail in your MPG/EPA complaint (hint, Subaru).

Meanwhile, Consumer Reports will continue recommending the car, in part for its excellent fuel economy, oblivious to the fact that you are trying to use their published data to pit the EPA against Subaru...

Last edited by Zeeper; 06-16-2013 at 09:40 AM. Reason: because I have a stalker who has nothing better to do than track my edits, lol
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Old 06-16-2013, 08:31 AM   #460
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LOL. Do you really think your fans are that simple? I got 50 mpg in my Impreza.
So what are you crying about then?
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Old 06-16-2013, 09:05 AM   #461
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So what are you crying about then?
Caocao,

If you get 36mpg+ with your CVT, driving at highway speeds between 60-70mph, he thinks you are lying, because according to his spreadsheets, that is impossible.

There are so many lying liars on this forum, who have buyers remorse, and post-purchase rationalization.

Or he is wrong, wrong, wrongitty wrong.

Can't be both.
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Old 06-16-2013, 09:59 AM   #462
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If you get 36mpg+ with your CVT, driving at highway speeds between 60-70mph, he thinks you are lying, because according to his spreadsheets, that is impossible.
I don't think stevehnm thinks it's impossible to get 36mpg. He thinks that cars should significantly exceed their EPA estimate in Consumer Reports' testing, and thus the Impreza should be rated lower so that it too can exceed it's EPA rating.

My personal experience has been that cars get their EPA rating. I wouldn't expect to jump in a rental TL or a ES350 and get 36mpg on a trip. Even my 1986 Camry gets the mileage that the revised EPA estimate shows, and they haven't even tested one in 27 years!

Consumer Reports seems to be his only source of evidence. Silly that this has gone on for 10 pages.
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Old 06-16-2013, 10:25 AM   #463
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I don't think stevehnm thinks it's impossible to get 36mpg. He thinks that cars should significantly exceed their EPA estimate in Consumer Reports' testing, and thus the Impreza should be rated lower so that it too can exceed it's EPA rating.

My personal experience has been that cars get their EPA rating. I wouldn't expect to jump in a rental TL or a ES350 and get 36mpg on a trip. Even my 1986 Camry gets the mileage that the revised EPA estimate shows, and they haven't even tested one in 27 years!

Consumer Reports seems to be his only source of evidence. Silly that this has gone on for 10 pages.
Well if that is his complaint, it isn't a problem with Subaru. His entire complaint rests on telling the EPA that their testing sucks?

I doubt the EPA will rush to change their mandated testing procedures for all new cars because he mailed them a spreadsheet of numbers picked off his Consumer Reports subscription.
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Old 06-16-2013, 10:50 AM   #464
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Caocao,

If you get 36mpg+ with your CVT, driving at highway speeds between 60-70mph, he thinks you are lying, because according to his spreadsheets, that is impossible.

There are so many lying liars on this forum, who have buyers remorse, and post-purchase rationalization.

Or he is wrong, wrong, wrongitty wrong.

Can't be both.
Well of course i'm lying, it's a conspiracy remember? And we're all in on it...except Steve of course!
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Old 06-16-2013, 03:09 PM   #465
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Actually Steve has backed way down from where we were a few months ago. The core of his argument is very simple now and goes something like this:

"In the CR test, which is a steady 65 mph on a level track, the Impreza with CVT got 35 MPG. Other vehicles with significantly lower EPA ratings (30-32MPG range) also attained that 35 MPG result in the CR test. Therefore, the EPA HWY rating of the Impreza should be in line with other vehicles that also got 35 MPG on the strictly highway test."

That starts with the assumption that CR conducts fairly competent and reproducible tests. I have no problem with this and would tend to agree.

But... (Nothing a man says before the word 'but' really matters)

I do have a problem with the CR results based on my own experience and that of mpgomatic test results. I got 39MPG with cruise control on at 65 MPH over a 50 mile test length (out and back) on the Raleigh, NC I540 beltline which is not flat at all.
This URL has direct links to the mpgomatic tested cars:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...postcount=4343

Here is a direct comparison between CR and MPGOMATIC highway results:
CR Model________CR Hwy___EPA Hwy___MPGOM Hwy__MPGOM Model
Impreza CVT_______35________36________38.1______2012 Subaru Impreza Sport Limited
Focus SE__________43________38________39.2______2012 Ford Focus Titanium HB
Mazda3 (Avg of 5)__38________32________45.1______2012 Mazda 3 Grand Touring Sedan
Corolla____________38________35________40.3______2 009 Toyota Corolla XLE

Keep in mind CR did 65mph and MPGOM did 68mph. CR says Ford wins. MPGOM says Mazda wins. Subaru is last in both but beats EPA in MPGOM test.

So, Zeeper keeps ringing the bell that CR continues to recommend the Impreza as a great car with great MPG "for an awd vehicle". There's nothing wrong with this statement either other than it has zero bearing on Steve's argument. That CR comment doesn't address CRs own test where it fails to exceed the EPA Hwy estimate like other cars.

Steve says "Impreza doesn't get advertised MPG and I have proof!"
I say "Yes it does and I have proof!"
Zeeper says "Impreza is a fantastic car with 'great MPG for an AWD' and I have proof!"

I don't see this ever going anywhere productive but it sure is fun.

Maybe at the macro level, all Imprezas counted together average out to the EPA numbers (or not) but they do seem to have a wide variance for real world MPG.

I'm super duper happy to be on the high-ish side. Hopefully Subaru's reputation for high resale and reliability will be some consolation for those who are on the low-ish side that end up keeping their Imps.
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Old 06-16-2013, 07:03 PM   #466
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No, I would summarize my position as:

There is ample evidence from actual owners on NASIOC that the EPA numbers are achievable. The fact that certain types of driving do not yield those numbers points more to how the car is driven than any fault with the mandated testing or with the car.

Call it operator error. For every person getting crappy mileage, there is someone getting good mileage, and the difference is the speed and distance that they drive, city/vs highway, hot engine vs cold, and whether they drive it like they stole it or drive it like they want to keep it around a while.
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Old 06-16-2013, 07:29 PM   #467
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No, I would summarize my position as:

There is ample evidence from actual owners on NASIOC that the EPA numbers are achievable. The fact that certain types of driving do not yield those numbers points more to how the car is driven than any fault with the mandated testing or with the car.

Call it operator error. For every person getting crappy mileage, there is someone getting good mileage, and the difference is the speed and distance that they drive, city/vs highway, hot engine vs cold, and whether they drive it like they stole it or drive it like they want to keep it around a while.
Yes but that's anecdotal evidence and there is no way to methodically compare those reports. For example "I drive uphill at 90mph both ways in the snow to work in the city and get 1 million MPG. I dare you to call me a liar."
CR and MPGOMatic are reproducible TYPES of driving across many vehicles.

AND we've been trying to focus on just highway results lately. The other topics on city, severe city, etc don't apply at the moment. And actually thats been hashed to death as well.

If anything, it's interesting to note how different the reports can be. Someone on here reported they can barely break 30 on the highway. I get 39. That's a BIG difference.
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Old 06-17-2013, 07:26 AM   #468
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Yes but that's anecdotal evidence and there is no way to methodically compare those reports. For example "I drive uphill at 90mph both ways in the snow to work in the city and get 1 million MPG. I dare you to call me a liar."
CR and MPGOMatic are reproducible TYPES of driving across many vehicles.

AND we've been trying to focus on just highway results lately. The other topics on city, severe city, etc don't apply at the moment. And actually thats been hashed to death as well.

If anything, it's interesting to note how different the reports can be. Someone on here reported they can barely break 30 on the highway. I get 39. That's a BIG difference.
Yes, it is all anecdotal, including the reports of low mpg lol.

There is also Fuelly, which shows some CVT's getting the highest combined mpg's, and others getting the lowest.

All anecdotal evidence that points to the same thing -- the car can deliver the EPA numbers but how you drive it matters!
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Old 06-17-2013, 08:03 AM   #469
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Yes, it is all anecdotal, including the reports of low mpg lol.

There is also Fuelly, which shows some CVT's getting the highest combined mpg's, and others getting the lowest.

All anecdotal evidence that points to the same thing -- the car can deliver the EPA numbers but how you drive it matters!
I think more judicious use of the word 'all' is in order.

What about the folks on this board with awful MPG? You think every one of those people are unable to drive in a frugal manner? Many times they've claimed to have driven conscientiously or with cruise and yet fail to get good (or even average MPG). Maybe their car is broken. Maybe they really have ankles made of iron. How do you know the awesome MPG numbers weren't downhill for 300 miles? Or the bad ones were going uphill pulling a boat for 200 miles?

Fuelly is just an interesting side note since it also falls into the category of essentially verbally stated, un-measured, un-repeatable, and uncomparable evidence. I'm sure it's possible to get some good data out of Fuelly but good luck sifting that. Maybe in total it averages out to something meaningful. If that's the case, the average 2014 Forester ties the average 2012 Impreza at 27.7 MPG. What does that mean?

Good data comes from well measured and controlled environments. If the origin of the data presented does not fit good data practices, it should be thrown out. CR and MPGOM are 'Ok' data points because the method is repeatable and well documented.
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Old 06-17-2013, 08:05 AM   #470
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Of course it's how you drive it, that's why the anecdotes from this site of individual cars means nothing. That, of course, is assuming they have CVT's. LOL.

Comparisons with other cars in the predicted range are applicable, but still mean relatively nothing compared to professional comparisons. For the life of me Zeeper, I don't understand why you think that your opinion matters on this thread because it doesn't. You don't even have a single fill up with a CVT. I can only assume you are making some attempt to keep up the resale value of your car by lying. I do have the advantage of having another car rated identically on the highway by the EPA, and it consistently gets over 25% better mpg than the CVT. I can "compare". You can't.

There are people here from the flatlands where the interstate speed limit is 65, so of course they will get better mpg than people from states with varied terrain and higher speed limits. The fact remains, however, that they would get the same mpg from the cars listed in the CR comparison that are rated at 30 mpg highway by the EPA. The correlation between is CR data and the EPA data is actually astounding once one takes out the bias difference due to test specifics.

The advantage of CR and mpgomatic is that they do compare the car to others in their database, and that's what the EPA sticker says. "For comparison purposes". So if the car doesn't compare it doesn't compare. It's not a difficult concept.

Even people who claim to get good mpg with their CVT say things like they drive slower when the AC is on so they get good mpg. I pass people all the time in small cars going 60 mph in a 75. Besides being dangerous, they don't understand that in a small car the money they are saving just is not worth the time - even if they make minimum wage.
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Old 06-17-2013, 08:33 AM   #471
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Well if it is scientific measurement you are after, the EPA mandates a testing protocol for all new cars, and the Subaru Impreza yielded the numbers on the window sticker.

if you think Subaru is in violation of the law, vis a vis not following the EPA mandated testing procedures, report them.

Given that many drivers, including MPG o matic professionals, have met or achieved the EPA window sticker mpgs, I don't think your complaint will get very far.

As far as getting the EPA to revise their testing procedures because any one person thinks that the EPA numbers should always underpromise and overdeliver, good luck with that!

and then there is this:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2...ment/index.htm

You might want to look over #3, it appears that your use of CR data without permission may be in violation of your membership contract with Consumer Reports...(D probably covers that piece where you use their data to promote your own agenda)
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Old 06-17-2013, 09:46 AM   #472
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Well if it is scientific measurement you are after, the EPA mandates a testing protocol for all new cars, and the Subaru Impreza yielded the numbers on the window sticker.
I don't think the EPA actually does many of the tests. This is where Steve launches into conspiracy theory about Subaru gaming the system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
if you think Subaru is in violation of the law, vis a vis not following the EPA mandated testing procedures, report them.
He did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
Given that many drivers, including MPG o matic professionals, have met or achieved the EPA window sticker mpgs, I don't think your complaint will get very far.
You're forgetting the other half of the data set where people are complaining about mpg and CR didn't hit the EPA number.

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Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
As far as getting the EPA to revise their testing procedures because any one person thinks that the EPA numbers should always underpromise and overdeliver, good luck with that!

and then there is this:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2...ment/index.htm

You might want to look over #3, it appears that your use of CR data without permission may be in violation of your membership contract with Consumer Reports...(D probably covers that piece where you use their data to promote your own agenda)
None of this speaks to the tests or the problem. It's a jab at Steve's position only. This adds nothing to the discussion. In fact, it's been so hashed to death (like every other mpg topic) that not much beyond the EPA stating that the Imp CVT is broken (or not) will make a difference.

Nail in coffin for these threads yet? Or do we keep going?
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Old 06-17-2013, 09:49 AM   #473
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Old 06-17-2013, 10:03 AM   #474
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I expect the EPA will dismiss the mpg complaint, all equivocation aside. My only question is whether those that filed the complaint will be honest and post the final disposition when they get the response from the EPA.

Since you and stevenhnm may believe the complaint has merit, get back to us with their verbatim response, please, so we know who is better at predicting the future, lol.
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Old 06-17-2013, 11:43 AM   #475
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Nail in coffin for these threads yet? Or do we keep going?
going! where else can I get my daily laugh?
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