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Old 06-21-2013, 03:26 AM   #501
stevehnm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
Yes, and the vehicles that show the absolute highest combined mpg's are all CVT's, not a single 5 speed competing on the right of the chart you so caringly linked to.

Call it an inconvenient truth.

And please, for the love of god, figure out what happens when you average numbers so we can all talk about the same thing -- helpful for discussing Fuelly, since the primary data they supply is AVERAGE COMBINED MPG.

However, should Fuelly find a way to supply CITY and HWY numbers, you would still lose the argument -- try looking at the 'pretty chart' again, even you can figure out which transmission provides the highest mpg's in that data set.

If you can't figure it out, here is a hint -- the green bars on the right of the chart? Those represent the vehicles reporting the highest combined mpg's, and green on that chart, it means CVT's!

See, a kindergartener could understand it, it is color coded, are you still confused?
As I said, there are many more CVT's than 5MT's on that graph, so you really have to go to the bottom one to equalize the numbers. Pick a number, say 32. You will notice that the CVT measurement (bar) is on the right. That does not mean that the CVT did better at 32 mpg. Not that this dataset is what could be considered robust, but your basic understanding of numbers here illuminates your decidedly ... inferior mental capacity.

G2, if you still think I feel "superior" to Zeeper's fans, I guess you're right. Of course, so should anyone who's had two days of basic math. I have to apologize to everyone here going through another series of "try to educate Zeeper" posts. Let me try to force feed him again.

Zeeper, if you go to the second link in my post about BFH's numbers, you can go to the last word in his post which has the data:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...postcount=3741

Go to the data. I'll "do the math" for you since you obviously can't.

Average of the 5MT, aka "manual": 27.8 mpg
Average of the CVT, aka "automatic": 27.3 mpg

Since you apparently can't do decimals in your head, let me give you a clue:

27.8 is bigger than 27.3.
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Old 06-21-2013, 07:59 AM   #502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
Fuelly data is only useful to Stevenhnm when he thinks it proves his theories, he just gets a little cagey when you point out that the data proves him wrong about CVT vs 5 Speed (vis a vis which transmission can provide the highest HWY mpg's). He linked to the chart, you just need to look at the cars at the very top the chart to see only CVT's reporting the very highest combined mpg's.
You're doing the same thing by focusing on the high numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
Hemophilic, your car is on Fuelly, so I checked what your combined mileage is and the reported CITY vs HWY mix.

http://www.fuelly.com/driver/hemophilic/impreza

I'm not sure why you think the EPA estimates are not accurate and decided to file a complaint with the EPA.

Your overall combined average of 27mpg is pretty much what you should expect given the majority of the driving you do is self-characterized as City. The 36mpg figure is for pure Highway driving, your car is rated at 27mpg City. So your own numbers, crazy as it sounds, are extremely close to the EPA estimate they printed on your window sticker, given the type of driving you do.
Because I see less MPG by 5-10% than what I saw in a '03 Civic EX on the same exact drive. That car was EPA rated slightly lower(26/34/29). My complaint is about City performance and even then I'm not too busted up about it. It's certainly within the range on the sticker, on the higher side of what people are reporting here, and in line with the fuelly average. I compiled some data and tried to contact EPA. No response yet and I won't be pursuing it.

I think the compiled fuelly data will ONLY be helpful if the CVT vs MT numbers include city/highway percentages. Maybe one day I'll sift through all that data to pull that out but don't hold your breath.
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Old 06-21-2013, 08:49 AM   #503
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Originally Posted by hemophilic View Post
You're doing the same thing by focusing on the high numbers.
No, I am focusing on those high numbers to point out that Stevenhnm is 0 for 3 (in baseball, a strikeout) when it comes to his theory that a CVT gets worse HWY mileage than a 5 speed, all other things being equal.

1) Fuelly data shows that the highest Combined MPG's belong exclusively to CVT's
2) The EPA testing shows that CVT's yield higher mpg's than 5 Speeds
3) on this forum, looking at owner reported mileage, CVT owners have posted the highest (absolute) HWY mpg's consistently -- at least those owners who drive their CVT on the highway, with the cruise on, under 70mph are posting mpg's that I know are unachievable in my car, because that is how I drive it on the highway (cruise, 65-70mph).

There is something there, there, when three distinct data sets all say the same thing. That is all I am pointing out with that Fuelly data. End of story.

So given that evidence, one might think he would stop promoting his disproven theory. But it isn't likely. He will probably try to confuse people by pointing out the AVERAGE COMBINED mpg's are similar between the two...which is irrelevant to the discussion of HWY mpg's (kind of a slight of hand attempt to distract from data that disproves his theory/feelings).

The funny thing is I just wrote this prior to reading his latest post, which does exactly this, tries to move the eyes away from the fact that all of the highest MPG cars on Fuelly are CVT's, to the fact that the Combined MPG's are higher for the 5 speeds. He is nothing, if not predictable.

0 for 3. You would think he would try a different approach instead of continuing his very, very, AVERAGE distraction. I would have thought just pointing out the pretty green bars on the right side of the chart would be enough for him to grasp what I pointed his eyes at, but he got distracted, again...


As far as your experience with previous cars, it is irrelevent to the mpg's of your Impreza. Anyone can desire to exceed the EPA estimated mpg's, but that does not mean failure to exceed them should be expected, they are estimates and not guarantees.

Last edited by Zeeper; 06-21-2013 at 09:53 AM. Reason: Edited to insert the italized text, and because of stalker lol
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Old 06-21-2013, 11:40 AM   #504
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I don't believe I've ever seen such overt ignorance. To address your attempt to pinpoint some weird "observation" that "the highest mpg cars on fuelly are CVT's" let's look at them. First, you have to realize that there are three times as many CVT responders as 5MT responders so of course the "pretty green bars" will be higher than the red bars. They are, everywhere. They are even more so on the left, but you just chalk that up to "proof" of your theory that more CVT's are driven in the city. In the world of reality that is what is known as circular logic.

Again, to get an accurate relative depiction of the distributions you have to look at the bottom graph of percentages as opposed to quantities.

But let's look at your statement that more CVT's get higher numbers. Go to the data and get the average percentages of cars that get above the average, say 28 mpg or better. Oh, wait. That would be waay above your ability, so I'll do it for you. 43% of the CVT's get 28 mpg or better, vs. 48% of the 5MT's.

And, your attempt to prove comments on this board are equivalent to data is further proof.

Finally, about your comment about comparing the Impreza to other cars, that is what the EPA numbers are all about: For "comparison".
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Old 06-21-2013, 12:11 PM   #505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehnm View Post
I don't believe I've ever seen such overt ignorance. To address your attempt to pinpoint some weird "observation" that "the highest mpg cars on fuelly are CVT's" let's look at them. First, you have to realize that there are three times as many CVT responders as 5MT responders so of course the "pretty green bars" will be higher than the red bars. They are, everywhere. They are even more so on the left, but you just chalk that up to "proof" of your theory that more CVT's are driven in the city. In the world of reality that is what is known as circular logic.

Again, to get an accurate relative depiction of the distributions you have to look at the bottom graph of percentages as opposed to quantities.

But let's look at your statement that more CVT's get higher numbers. Go to the data and get the average percentages of cars that get above the average, say 28 mpg or better. Oh, wait. That would be waay above your ability, so I'll do it for you. 43% of the CVT's get 28 mpg or better, vs. 48% of the 5MT's.

And, your attempt to prove comments on this board are equivalent to data is further proof.

Finally, about your comment about comparing the Impreza to other cars, that is what the EPA numbers are all about: For "comparison".
Doubling down on stupid only makes you look, well, twice as stupid I guess...

So in order:
  • The bars on the far right of the chart, representing vehicles with the highest combined mpg's, show that only CVT's are represented as those achieving the highest mpg's.
  • Lots of CVT's at the lower end of the chart, no doubt. Since you discount my CITY driving theory (not really a theory, but hey, whatever) look at, for example, the direct link I provided for Hemophilic's car. It shows the provided mix of City/Highway miles, and the mpg's shown are entirely consistent with the majority of those miles being City miles (a point that Hemophilic agreed with, do you feel left out yet?).
  • You're not sure CITY miles are lowering the Combined MPG's for CVT's? Stop being lazy and look to see if those drivers are reporting HWY vs City, and see if there is a strong correlation between driving more City miles, and lower mpg's. Good luck discounting that as spurious data.
  • You absolutely do not have to look at an average to determine the high and low numbers in a dataset. It is an irrelevant point that you keep bringing up, yet consistent with your strong desire to ignore the data everyone else can look at for themselves (let the peanut gallery decide which one of us is the B.S artist).
  • EPA mpg's are for comparison, they are also estimates, not guarantees, and subject to the type of driving done and the driving style.
  • Last, but not least, Subaru tested a CVT and 5 speed on the same equipment, and came out with mpg's that real world data, both on the forum and on Fuelly, completely confirm.
Fact's, inconvenient truths, now it's time for you to triple down on the stupid, hype those Combined AVERAGES, and ignore the facts everyone else has access to...or maybe open your mind and look at the math objectively, instead of subjectively?

Last edited by Zeeper; 06-21-2013 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 06-21-2013, 12:21 PM   #506
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But let's look at your statement that more CVT's get higher numbers. Go to the data and get the average percentages of cars that get above the average, say 28 mpg or better. Oh, wait. That would be waay above your ability, so I'll do it for you. 43% of the CVT's get 28 mpg or better, vs. 48% of the 5MT's.
This one is the most special. You are still obfuscating. Aren't you willing to discuss HWY mileage, CVT vs 5 Speed? Narrow your focus a bit, and try...

I never said all CVT's get better combined mpg's than all 5 speeds (though I did write that no 5 speed owner has reported higher HWY mpg's than the highest reported by several CVT owners, something you apparently cannot disprove).

I also never said that the AVERAGE Combined mpg's on Fuelly are higher for CVT's. This is your strawman argument, I told you why I think the combined number might be higher for 5 speeds, but it has nothing to do purely with the HWY mileage delivered by either transmission.

I said CVT's get better HWY mpg's than 5 speeds do, and that the data on Fuelly confirms this (hint, it's the reason the two bars to the far right of the scale, showing the highest mpg's attained by the impreza's tracked on Fuelly, are both green and signify only CVT's yielding those highest Combined mpg's).

As far as the percents you quote, they are only relevant to a discussion about the CVT vs 5 Speed HWY mileage when you factor in the mix of City vs Highway driving done by those cars.

'Cause, as most people are able to understand, if more of the miles driven by CVT's tracked on Fuelly are in the City, the overall Combined average mpg's of all CVT's tracked on Fuelly will reflect that because City driving yields lower mpg's.

It's that pesky mathematical concept of AVERAGES. One you seemingly have a very hard time understanding.

Last edited by Zeeper; 06-23-2013 at 10:43 PM. Reason: because, stalker, lol
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Old 06-21-2013, 01:13 PM   #507
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"LOL"

I rest my case...
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Old 06-21-2013, 05:10 PM   #508
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Old 06-23-2013, 10:17 PM   #509
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Yep - Ontario, flat, 62 mph speed limit. Looks like the kind of mpg any of the cars in the first post of this thread could get.
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Old 06-24-2013, 04:34 PM   #510
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Not the rockies for sure but definetly not Manitoba flat! As for speed limit, it varies from 62 to 68 (100 to 110 kph). Another thing to consider is the temp variation; -20 F (without Windchill factor) to 95 F (without humidex factor).
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Old 07-07-2013, 09:43 AM   #511
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Just went for a trip to the beach. AC on, Cruise on, 2 adults, 2 kids, hatch full of beach gear, 5mph over speed limit (mostly doing 75mph), Raleigh, NC to Wrightsville Beach, NC. Trip was reset immediately after getting on the highway. Trip computer was checked before getting into any city driving and indicated 29.7MPG on the way down and 31.7MPG on the way back. Trip computer is normally between 1 and 2 MPG overoptimistic.
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Old 07-07-2013, 07:44 PM   #512
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For everyone complaining about the mileage, just got back from a 70 mile drive, 50% backroads, 50% highway with cruise, some AC, mix of speeds, on a manual with about 4500 miles on the odo.

Got an average of 37.5mpg. Yes, seriously.
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Old 07-08-2013, 07:13 AM   #513
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Excellent. I wish my CVT would do that at a reasonable speed...
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Old 07-08-2013, 08:29 AM   #514
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Excellent. I wish my CVT would do that at a reasonable speed...
All evidence shows the CVT would return even higher highway mpg's on the same route, at the same speeds, driven in a similar way.
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:40 PM   #515
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Originally Posted by Dirt Bringer View Post
For everyone complaining about the mileage, just got back from a 70 mile drive, 50% backroads, 50% highway with cruise, some AC, mix of speeds, on a manual with about 4500 miles on the odo.

Got an average of 37.5mpg. Yes, seriously.
I believe it. How fast were the different types of driving? I can get almost 40mpg cruising at 65 without AC. 75mph with AC is 30mpg.
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:01 AM   #516
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I believe it. How fast were the different types of driving? I can get almost 40mpg cruising at 65 without AC. 75mph with AC is 30mpg.
That's rather impressive. What transmission do you have? I was doing a mix of about 40mph half way and 70 the other half. At one point I made a drive a few months back at an average of 80-85 for about six hours total, and I averaged about 31mpg, I thought that was quite good. I also feel that may have helped the engine break in a bit more because my mileage generally improved after that.
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:07 AM   #517
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Keep your rpms to about 2k with cruise control on and you'll get about 40 mpg. I get that regularly on the highway.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:43 PM   #518
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Originally Posted by Dirt Bringer View Post

That's rather impressive. What transmission do you have? I was doing a mix of about 40mph half way and 70 the other half. At one point I made a drive a few months back at an average of 80-85 for about six hours total, and I averaged about 31mpg, I thought that was quite good. I also feel that may have helped the engine break in a bit more because my mileage generally improved after that.
Sport limited so a CVT.
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Old 07-15-2013, 03:25 AM   #519
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All evidence shows the CVT would return even higher highway mpg's on the same route, at the same speeds, driven in a similar way.
"ALL evidence"? That just shows you're ignoring reality.
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Old 07-15-2013, 07:00 AM   #520
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"ALL evidence"? That just shows you're ignoring reality.
LOL, too many posts with people reporting good/great fuel economy must have you itching to comment again.

"All evidence" means I know how to read, and pay attention to what other NASIOC impreza drivers, including those driving CVT's, are typing.

Try it.
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Old 07-15-2013, 04:51 PM   #521
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LOL, too many posts with people reporting good/great fuel economy must have you itching to comment again.

"All evidence" means I know how to read, and pay attention to what other NASIOC impreza drivers, including those driving CVT's, are typing.

Try it.
Steve lives in a bubble, probably his mom's basement. He cannot imagine other people getting good numbers on their Impreza because HIS way of driving in HIS part of the country is all part the said bubble; as far as he is concerned there is no intelligent life form out there.

Last edited by Caocao; 07-15-2013 at 05:45 PM. Reason: Grammar
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Old 07-15-2013, 05:07 PM   #522
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Steve leaves in a bubble, probably his mom's basement. He cannot imagine other people getting good numbers on their Impreza because HIS way of driving in HIS part of the country is all part the said bubble; as far as he is concerned there is no intelligent life form out there.
That's not quite accurate. He has stated his own observations, that of consumer reports, and Fuelly. I don't think he has ever denied the possibility of good mpg, rather the statistical likelihood.
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Old 07-15-2013, 08:15 PM   #523
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LOL, too many posts with people reporting good/great fuel economy must have you itching to comment again.

"All evidence" means I know how to read, and pay attention to what other NASIOC impreza drivers, including those driving CVT's, are typing.

Try it.
Another example of your logic flow - or rather lack thereof.

Those who are reporting good mpg are primarily comparing it to either their old SUV or other AWD's - not the EPA advertised numbers. I'm comparing it to my other car with identical EPA highway 36 mpg, and that car gets 30% better fuel economy.

And again, you don't even HAVE a CVT, which tells us the orifice you're talking out of is not above your neck.
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Old 07-15-2013, 08:21 PM   #524
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Keep your rpms to about 2k with cruise control on and you'll get about 40 mpg. I get that regularly on the highway.
I agree. Unfortunately for me to average 2k rpm means I have to set my cruise control below 60 mph!
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Old 07-15-2013, 08:51 PM   #525
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Another example of your logic flow - or rather lack thereof.

Those who are reporting good mpg are primarily comparing it to either their old SUV or other AWD's - not the EPA advertised numbers. I'm comparing it to my other car with identical EPA highway 36 mpg, and that car gets 30% better fuel economy.

And again, you don't even HAVE a CVT, which tells us the orifice you're talking out of is not above your neck.
Not having a CVT does not prevent me from reading the mpg numbers that fellow NASIOC members are posting.

We know, blah blah blah 5-7-9 standard deviations, corolla, more blah blah blah

It is like a wave of mostly good news from other members, reporting mpg's often meeting and exceeding the epa numbers, then you emerge to post your negative feelings.

Your sole positive contribution to NASIOC, as far as I can tell, is to prepare others that like to speed in excess of 70mph up steep grades for the poor HWY mpg's that will result.

We already had another member, who sold their car, who was able to prove that a lead foot (they told us that the car was way underpowered, so it was the only way they drove it), combined with short city drives with a cold engine, provided shockingly low CITY mpgs.

Maybe you should do what they did, and trade it in.

Because I am not sure the EPA rep is working overtime on your case, however do let us know if Subaru cuts you a check!
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