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Old 03-13-2013, 12:41 AM   #76
stevehnm
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Originally Posted by John451 View Post
Maybe so but the FB20 has a reasonably high compression ratio of 10.5:1 so am wondering if the management is retarding some when using the lower Octane fuels, hopefully an engine / fuels expert can chime in ?
That's a good point.
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:26 AM   #77
bobdole888
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In this month's Subaru's Drive Magazine, PZEV is explained.
For the explanation, one can infer that PZEV Subaru will do worse in mpg than regular Subaru.
I bet Subaru only test the non-PZEV impreza for EPA.

Check it out for your self:
http://drive.subaru.com/spr13_WhatMakes.aspx

Interesting section:
"The catalytic converter for a PZEV engine has a finer mesh and higher volume of precious metals – platinum, palladium, and rhodium – than the standard converter, as well as twice the effective cleaning surface. This improves the converter’s performance as it reduces gases in the exhaust exiting the tailpipe.
In addition, the revised ECM programming delays ignition timing, which helps the catalytic converter heat up to operating temperatures sooner, thereby reducing cold-start emissions."




The finer mesh in catalytic converter must be more restrictive, and make the engine weaker.


The different ECM programming "retards timing" this definately hurts mpg. Timing needs to be advanced as far as possible to improve mpg. I bet the PZEV is set to have higher catalytic converter target also, to drastically control emission. This prolongs the warm up period compared to other cars.


Aside from the PZEV mpg tax, CVT models has additional deficiency. Subaru put in a weaker CVT and to protect it, the torque converter is not allowed to lock until it fully warms up. This makes the car extremely inefficient before full warm up both from engine and CVT.


I would say the PZEV aspect should be explored if anyone wants to sue Subaru for the lack of mpg.
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:00 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdole888 View Post
In this month's Subaru's Drive Magazine, PZEV is explained.
For the explanation, one can infer that PZEV Subaru will do worse in mpg than regular Subaru.
I bet Subaru only test the non-PZEV impreza for EPA.

Check it out for your self:
http://drive.subaru.com/spr13_WhatMakes.aspx

Interesting section:
"The catalytic converter for a PZEV engine has a finer mesh and higher volume of precious metals – platinum, palladium, and rhodium – than the standard converter, as well as twice the effective cleaning surface. This improves the converter’s performance as it reduces gases in the exhaust exiting the tailpipe.
In addition, the revised ECM programming delays ignition timing, which helps the catalytic converter heat up to operating temperatures sooner, thereby reducing cold-start emissions."




The finer mesh in catalytic converter must be more restrictive, and make the engine weaker.


The different ECM programming "retards timing" this definately hurts mpg. Timing needs to be advanced as far as possible to improve mpg. I bet the PZEV is set to have higher catalytic converter target also, to drastically control emission. This prolongs the warm up period compared to other cars.


Aside from the PZEV mpg tax, CVT models has additional deficiency. Subaru put in a weaker CVT and to protect it, the torque converter is not allowed to lock until it fully warms up. This makes the car extremely inefficient before full warm up both from engine and CVT.


I would say the PZEV aspect should be explored if anyone wants to sue Subaru for the lack of mpg.
that explains why short trips are REALLY bad for me.
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:31 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdole888 View Post
In this month's Subaru's Drive Magazine, PZEV is explained.
For the explanation, one can infer that PZEV Subaru will do worse in mpg than regular Subaru.
I bet Subaru only test the non-PZEV impreza for EPA.

Check it out for your self:
http://drive.subaru.com/spr13_WhatMakes.aspx

Interesting section:
"The catalytic converter for a PZEV engine has a finer mesh and higher volume of precious metals – platinum, palladium, and rhodium – than the standard converter, as well as twice the effective cleaning surface. This improves the converter’s performance as it reduces gases in the exhaust exiting the tailpipe.
In addition, the revised ECM programming delays ignition timing, which helps the catalytic converter heat up to operating temperatures sooner, thereby reducing cold-start emissions."

The finer mesh in catalytic converter must be more restrictive, and make the engine weaker.

The different ECM programming "retards timing" this definately hurts mpg. Timing needs to be advanced as far as possible to improve mpg. I bet the PZEV is set to have higher catalytic converter target also, to drastically control emission. This prolongs the warm up period compared to other cars.

Aside from the PZEV mpg tax, CVT models has additional deficiency. Subaru put in a weaker CVT and to protect it, the torque converter is not allowed to lock until it fully warms up. This makes the car extremely inefficient before full warm up both from engine and CVT.

I would say the PZEV aspect should be explored if anyone wants to sue Subaru for the lack of mpg.
That is very interesting and thank you for the info. I am one of those very disappointed with the fuel economy and my Impreza is PZEV.

For those who have the CVT it would be interesting to find out if your vehicle is PZEV and if you are experiencing good or poor fuel economy.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:32 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by 2012ISport View Post

That is very interesting and thank you for the info. I am one of those very disappointed with the fuel economy and my Impreza is PZEV.

For those who have the CVT it would be interesting to find out if your vehicle is PZEV and if you are experiencing good or poor fuel economy.
I have cvt but no pzev and have good mpg numbers as stated previously. I too wonder if the PZEV has something to do with it, especially with CVT owners. Maybe that's the difference??? Idk, but I do know I have a cvt and am nowhere near as low as some of you are.

That being said, some of the people complaining are still within the expected range window and shouldn't be complaining.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:26 AM   #81
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I have a CVT and PZEV with poor gas mileage, 24 MPG during the winter and 26 MPG during the summer. I definitely saw a spike last October when I had the AC and heater off.
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:36 AM   #82
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I have a CVT and PZEV and I was not entirely pleased with the MPG performance until I hit around 6K miles on the odometer. I did not believe in this "break-in" period, but I'm guessing it is a real performance threshold. Now I'm consistently getting between 29 and 31 MPG. I've had my car since September 2012. I drive around 65% highway and have a 41 miles commute. Trip computer is usually off by 2 MPG and out of 33 fill ups I've done, only once was spot on.

PS. I try to hyper mile as much as possible while I'm in highways. My best MPG to day is 32.4
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:43 AM   #83
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This would explain why my non-PZEV 5mt does GREAT on gas.
My non-pzev cvt loaner had impressive mpg's as well.
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:46 AM   #84
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If I had to suffer with one of those cvt's, I'd be pissed off too if it wasn't getting close to epa #'s.
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:44 PM   #85
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i definitely subscribe to the PZEV timing during warm up affecting MPGs. for my short 4mi commute to the train station, repeated estimates suggest i get about 22 MPG for that sort of run. IF, however, that type of driving is done when the car is warmed up, i get closer to 26 MPG. (this is suburbia driving with an average speed calculated around 16 MPH)

i'm modestly disappointed in the MPG number's i've seen. while it wasn't the only reason i bought the car, the 27/36MPG numbers brought the Subaru into the list of cars to consider. if it were somehow advertised as 24/32MPG (which i would say is more consistent with my own experiences relative to other cars), i might still have bought the Subaru, but would have had more realistic expectations.

before we again get into the AWD vs FWD argument. it was my hope (shown as false now in hindsight) that the 27/36MPG relative to the 32/29 numbers of a Honda Civic* would reflect the losses expected in going to AWD.

i'm satisfied overall with car in spite of seeing MPG numbers about 3-4 less than i was expecting to see (i get 29mpg overall calculated (which i know some people would be very pleased with), accounting for odometer errors of 3%, while i was hoping to see something closer to 33 based on my own previous experiences with EPA estimates and my driving style)


*Aside: that being said, as a long time Honda guy, i was totally unenthralled by the 2012 Civic even though it still made it to 2nd on my short list of cars ahead the Hyundai Elantra, Mazda 3, Ford Focus, etc. but if i had bought the 2012 Civic, i would have been really sad to see now that they addressed all of my concerns in the 2013 Civic (steering responsiveness, and interior refinement).
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:51 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by nubsub View Post
*Aside: that being said, as a long time Honda guy, i was totally unenthralled by the 2012 Civic even though it still made it to 2nd on my short list of cars ahead the Hyundai Elantra, Mazda 3, Ford Focus, etc. but if i had bought the 2012 Civic, i would have been really sad to see now that they addressed all of my concerns in the 2013 Civic (steering responsiveness, and interior refinement).
Totally agree. Test-drove the 2012 Civic and was disappointed. I had been planning on replacing my 20 year-old civic with a new one.

Also agree that pzev probably does affect mpg. My Impreza is a pzev and the mileage is bad for the first few minutes of driving. (Overall, however, my mileage is good. My current fuelly average is 32.0 mpg) I guess the engine is dumping in more fuel to warm up the catalytic converter or something.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:21 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by aeoporta View Post
he he that honda odometer bug persisted past the 05 model year , ask me how I know, former 09 accord owner lol
Gets them though the warranty period faster, all 3 of my jeeps were same with factory tires, going from 27's to 30's fixed it.
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Old 03-13-2013, 04:36 PM   #88
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the 2013 civic is no cornucopia, cheanging cheap pastic and reprogramming the steering does not address the fact that the car corners like crap. Our 2010 civic got totaled I waited to see what the 2013 would bring as 2012 was a dud, sorry 2013 failed test drive it you will see.
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Old 03-13-2013, 05:04 PM   #89
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the 2013 civic is no cornucopia, cheanging cheap pastic and reprogramming the steering does not address the fact that the car corners like crap. Our 2010 civic got totaled I waited to see what the 2013 would bring as 2012 was a dud, sorry 2013 failed test drive it you will see.
Thx for the reality check. I had a 2000 civic prior to the Impreza. Lost it too to being totaled in an accident. I still miss it. It handled great and got better mileage than the Impreza in spite of lower EPA estimates.
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Old 03-13-2013, 05:17 PM   #90
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Mine is a pzev and the mpg is poor.
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Old 03-13-2013, 05:24 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by stevehnm View Post
Mine is a pzev and the mpg is poor.
I'm guessing your 5000 RPM running up La Bajada has a lot to do with your fuel consumption woes.

Is there no way for you to upshift while you're climbing the hill? Or does 70 MPH put you at 5k RPM at "6th gear" on the CVT?
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Old 03-13-2013, 05:32 PM   #92
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mine is PZEV and mpg is pretty good. then again i don't have gallons of transmission fluid to warm up, only about 3qts. but during warmup my mpg is pretty crappy. oh wait...
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Old 03-13-2013, 05:54 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by lymphomaniac View Post
I'm guessing your 5000 RPM running up La Bajada has a lot to do with your fuel consumption woes.

Is there no way for you to upshift while you're climbing the hill? Or does 70 MPH put you at 5k RPM at "6th gear" on the CVT?
I end up putting it in "manual" but still have to downshift to 4th gear at the top. Besides, I go down that hill too... It would be nice if we could just hit the paddle and it would stay in that gear while climbing, like when slowing. Unfortunately it takes two actions - one to put it in "manual" and then to hit the paddle - but then I forget it's in 5th gear for awhile - and mpg's suck even worse in 5th gear on the highway...
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Old 03-13-2013, 05:59 PM   #94
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mine is PZEV and mpg is pretty good. then again i don't have gallons of transmission fluid to warm up, only about 3qts. but during warmup my mpg is pretty crappy. oh wait...
Yup, wrong thread for you bucko.
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:27 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by stevehnm View Post

I end up putting it in "manual" but still have to downshift to 4th gear at the top. Besides, I go down that hill too... It would be nice if we could just hit the paddle and it would stay in that gear while climbing, like when slowing. Unfortunately it takes two actions - one to put it in "manual" and then to hit the paddle - but then I forget it's in 5th gear for awhile - and mpg's suck even worse in 5th gear on the highway...
You can hit the paddle and shift it without putting it in manual mode.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:11 PM   #96
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I have cvt but no pzev and have good mpg numbers as stated previously. I too wonder if the PZEV has something to do with it, especially with CVT owners. Maybe that's the difference??? Idk, but I do know I have a cvt and am nowhere near as low as some of you are.

That being said, some of the people complaining are still within the expected range window and shouldn't be complaining.
I think we may have found the variable. My 13 CVT is PZEV as I think all 13's are. I think we all agree that there had to be something, as I know I am not lying! And That being said, I am not within the expected range window and I definately am pissed and going to complain. You just took yourself out of the equation.

This officially should be called the Impreza CVT PZEV MPG problem. Not trying to be a, lets call it a weenie, but you have been rebuttling all of us with a problem and your car is not equipped the same.. so there is a very good reason why your results would differ, yes? This info is definately going to be provided to SBOA in the morning. All the advertising and Video's I have watched were most likely for non PZEV cars, which I am confident makes a huge difference when attempting to reach the Subaru MPG claims.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:50 PM   #97
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This officially should be called the Impreza CVT PZEV MPG problem. Not trying to be a, lets call it a weenie, but you have been rebuttling all of us with a problem and your car is not equipped the same..
That's why this thread is different from the other live thread (that has not been stifled). It is indisputable that this thread is for CVT owners, yet there are some defending the CVT Impreza when they don't even have one. The 5 speed owners who are posting on this thread are either Subaru plants or are just plain wacked.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:18 PM   #98
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wacked
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:22 PM   #99
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Mine does what it is supposed to do. I have said it over and over. It also fits all the requirements to be in this thread.

Believe me, it is my money. If I was pi$$ed about fuel economy, I would not be afraid to say so!

John
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:39 PM   #100
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You can hit the paddle and shift it without putting it in manual mode.
Yeah but when the gas pedal is down it shifts back to auto in 1 or 2 seconds on mine. Does yours not do that?
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