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Old 04-06-2013, 09:51 AM   #151
stevehnm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dubiousmike View Post
I have a sport limited crv. If I drive 55 with cruise control and no one else in the car, I get 37 mpg. Add adults, cargo, drive faster, etc and it plummets.
And some here call that "normal". How lame can they be?
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Old 04-06-2013, 03:02 PM   #152
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Our first tank in our '13 was only 24mpg (20mph average), so i was a little concerned after reading these mpg threads.. I didn't have any trouble getting 36mpg on my first highway trip yesterday. Warm start with a full tank at a gas station next to the highway in Cave city, KY. Drove to Columbus, OH with cruise set to the speed limit. Trip computer said 38mpg average when we arrived (60mph average). Haven't refueled yet, but it'll probably go down with the around town driving while we're here. Will follow up on the return trip.
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Old 04-06-2013, 07:04 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCarp22 View Post
Our first tank in our '13 was only 24mpg (20mph average), so i was a little concerned after reading these mpg threads.. I didn't have any trouble getting 36mpg on my first highway trip yesterday. Warm start with a full tank at a gas station next to the highway in Cave city, KY. Drove to Columbus, OH with cruise set to the speed limit. Trip computer said 38mpg average when we arrived (60mph average). Haven't refueled yet, but it'll probably go down with the around town driving while we're here. Will follow up on the return trip.
5 speed or cvt?
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Old 04-06-2013, 07:38 PM   #154
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MCarp22 has a CVT from the pictures that were previously posted. Just click on the User name and "their posts" and then educate yourself - not rocket science. Geez....
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Old 04-06-2013, 07:41 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dubiousmike View Post
I have a sport limited crv. If I drive 55 with cruise control and no one else in the car, I get 37 mpg. Add adults, cargo, drive faster, etc and it plummets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehnm View Post
And some here call that "normal". How lame can they be?
What you're missing is that it is completely normal.

Drive like the EPA test, get the EPA numbers...it's crazy.
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:01 PM   #156
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What you're missing is that it is completely normal.
Actually, you must have missed the first post in this thread. The relevant term is "outlier".

Quote:
Originally Posted by richde View Post
Drive like the EPA test, get the EPA numbers...it's crazy.
That should be so, unfortunately when the Consumer Reports' drivers get the same highway mpg as a dozen other cars, and those dozen are rated at 30 +/- 2 mpg highway EPA, that's what the Impreza should be rated at - 30 mpg highway, +/- 2. I know that's a difficult concept for some, But I'm sure you can get it.
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Old 04-06-2013, 11:59 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehnm View Post
Other than the fuel economy, this is a great car. However, there has been much discussion in other threads about the fact the CVT does not get the advertised MPG, backed up by this observation:

The fact that Consumer Reports has tested several vehicles that get the same highway mpg, yet are rated consistently lower. Very consistently. The sedan (at CR's 35 mpg) is particularly woeful, as the other cars are rated at 30 +/- 2 MPG EPA highway, yet still get the same mpg in real world testing, with a tight spread. The actual numbers are a mean of 29.9 MPG with a standard deviation of 1.311, meaning the 36 mpg EPA highway rating by Subaru is so far out in left field that it is 4.63 standard deviations away from the crowd. This means that if there were a half million cars in this same spread, the Subaru Impreza would have a better than 50/50 chance of being the worst.

So, the question is, how can Subaru improve the fuel economy of the Impreza? In the 200,000 miles I plan(ned?) to keep the car it will cost me an extra $5,000 extra dollars for fuel, since the real world EPA highway MPG should be 30 MPG.

I got the information here:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...erformance.htm

and the actual data is this:

Subaru Impreza sedan Premium 4-cyl CVT___ 36

Acura TL Base V6 ______________________29
Acura TSX 4-cyl ________________________30
Audi A4 sedan Premium 4-cyl______________29
Ford Mustang coupe Premium V6 MT________29
Dodge Avenger Mainstreet 4-cyl___________31
Lexus ES 350 V6_______________________31
Mazda MX-5 Miata Grand Touring 4-cyl MT___28
Nissan Altima 3.5 SL V6 CVT______________31
Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium 4-cyl CVT______32
Volkswagen CC Sport 4-cyl_______________31
Volvo C30 T5 1.0 5-cyl MT ________________28
Volvo S60 T5 5-cyl______________________30
Quoted the first post - not seeing the outliar "thingy".
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Old 04-07-2013, 01:11 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by G-Omaha View Post
Quoted the first post - not seeing the outliar "thingy".
Just go to Google and then educate yourself - not rocket science. Geez....

But first you have to spell it right - it's outlier, not outliar.

All you need is the basic description - no calcs required to actually see it. But for the record, taking the Impreza and comparing it to the mean and standard deviation of the others means the Impreza would still probably be the furthest out from the average of the others if there were 150,000 instead of just 12. As if that's not convincing enough, if you take the other Subaru (Legacy) out and just take the mean and standard deviation of the 11 non-Subarus, the Impreza would probably be the furthest away from the average of over *3 million* vehicles tested! But, hey, if somebody's got you convinced that's "normal", well then everybody's entitled to their own opinion...
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Old 04-07-2013, 01:35 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehnm View Post
Actually, you must have missed the first post in this thread. The relevant term is "outlier".
While I might not know much about statistics, your convenient use of the word "outlier" means we're on equal footing here.

You can't pick and choose the evidence you want to rely on, and the evidence you want to dismiss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehnm View Post
That should be so, unfortunately when the Consumer Reports' drivers get the same highway mpg as a dozen other cars, and those dozen are rated at 30 +/- 2 mpg highway EPA, that's what the Impreza should be rated at - 30 mpg highway, +/- 2. I know that's a difficult concept for some, But I'm sure you can get it.
What I do get is that I drive an XV, with the same engine and transmission, and my mixed driving has me beating the EPA combined numbers. Have you ever considered that there might be a large number of people who picked the CVT because they do lots of stop-and-go driving? Have you also considered that there are people who don't understand what it takes to get good mileage, even though they might think they do?

Are you not getting good mileage despite your best efforts? Mine is capable of it with me driving it, and many others are getting the same results. Maybe it's not the car.
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Old 04-07-2013, 01:52 AM   #160
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While I might not know much about statistics, your convenient use of the word "outlier" means we're on equal footing here.

You can't pick and choose the evidence you want to rely on, and the evidence you want to dismiss.
I'm not dismissing anything. I'm using *all* of Consumer Reports' cars that get 35 mpg highway on *their* tests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by richde View Post
What I do get is that I drive an XV, with the same engine and transmission, and my mixed driving has me beating the EPA combined numbers. Have you ever considered that there might be a large number of people who picked the CVT because they do lots of stop-and-go driving? Have you also considered that there are people who don't understand what it takes to get good mileage, even though they might think they do?

Are you not getting good mileage despite your best efforts? Mine is capable of it with me driving it, and many others are getting the same results. Maybe it's not the car.
You are an anecdote. So am I. The only way to compare this is by professional drivers, and the fact is the standard deviation of the highway mpg of all the other non-Subaru cars Consumer Reports tested compared to their EPA highway ratings is 1.19 mpg, and *that* combined with the average EPA highway rating of the others - less than 30 mpg, means that's where the Impreza CVT should be.

As is, the Impreza CVT is 5.3 standard deviations away from them. It's an outlier, so it's honestly not included in that calculation. There is something wrong with that datum.

But hey, some people will drive as slowly as they need to in order to justify their purchase.

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Old 04-07-2013, 01:55 AM   #161
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What you're missing is that CR is just one data point, it's not an entire study.

I don't drive slowly either, I just pay attention to what's ahead of me.
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Old 04-07-2013, 02:36 AM   #162
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Forgot to mention that we only got 33mpg on the previous leg of the trip, higher speed limits, cold start, low speed drive to the interstate, wife driving were different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehnm View Post
5 speed or cvt?
CVT of course. If i had a 5 speed i'd have posted something like:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarp22
I just got 38mpg in my 5 speed. Sucks to be you CVT losers!
Quote:
Originally Posted by richde View Post
Drive like the EPA test, get the EPA numbers...it's crazy.
Pretty much this. You can tell when someone is not on a highway cycle when they "drive on the interstate the whole time" and average speed is 30mph.
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Old 04-07-2013, 02:54 AM   #163
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So wait. Let me make sure i understand this thread. Because someone at Consumer Reports got 35mpg in a TL, the Impreza CVT should get 42?
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Old 04-07-2013, 07:06 AM   #164
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He is an "outliar", when he started his mpg complaints we asked simple questions about his driving, and eventually he told us:

1) his scangauge showed 36mpg at 60 mph (so his previous statement that it was impossible for him to achieve the EPA numbers was false).
2) a portion of his drive is up a road so steep there is a wikipedia entry about it, apparently pioneers in the west had difficulty navigating it.
3) his average speed is in excess of 70mph, and his top speed on the highway is closer to 85mph.

He will wow you with numbers, but look at how he is driving it, and don't feel sorry for him. Anyone with two brain cells can look at how the EPA derives the Window Sticker numbers and realize that driving the car that fast a reasonable person will never expect to see the EPA numbers, given the average speed on the main HWY EPA highway test is 48mph, and the top speed is 60mph. Yes, they weight the test with some highspeed driving, and on that test (not the main test) the average speed is the same ~48mph, and the top speed is 80mph for about 20 seconds.
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Old 04-07-2013, 07:28 AM   #165
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Unless you have a magic corolla!
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Old 04-07-2013, 08:01 AM   #166
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He's trolling for posts. It's the only explanation. He's unable to drive normally, makes excuses for "needing" to speed, claims everyone else is stupid for going the speed limit, claims the government is stupid for having such low speed limits, "proves" his case by citing studies that the government ALREADY USES to decide those "low" speed limits, and will endlessly post the same opinion believing that the last word makes him right. Yes, he's that guy.
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Old 04-07-2013, 08:04 AM   #167
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And for the record, my cvt shows 39 on the dash with cruise set to 65 on the low rolling hills of I540 around Raleigh, NC.
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Old 04-07-2013, 09:52 AM   #168
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"Dear Hemophilic,
Thank you for contacting us. The Fuel Economy website is produced at Oak Ridge National Laboratory with data supplied to us by the EPA so our role is limited to posting vehicle ratings and providing general consumer information. The EPA’s Office of Transportation and Air Quality is responsible for all vehicle testing, certification, and labeling. Their testing facility is located in Ann Arbor, Michigan and can be found on the web at: http://www.epa.gov/nvfel/
The main contact page for the Office of Transportation and Air Quality can be found at: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/oms-cmt.htm
You could also send an email to complianceinfo@epa.gov
Sincerely,
www.fueleconomy.gov"
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:20 AM   #169
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Just for fun I've sent the following to complianceinfo@epa.gov

"Good morning,
I'd like information on how to file a complaint about mileage estimates or any pending audits of auto makers. I have been tracking mileage on my 2012 Subaru Impreza Sport Limited for over a year now and am unable to reach the estimates without painstaking effort. Based on my and others results posted at Fuelly.com, the Impreza is down over 6%. My Imprezas numbers suggest about 10%. Is there a method available for me to verify my vehicles fuel economy and rule out driving behavior?
Also, there are numerous similar complaints on the forums at nasioc.com, a Subaru focused group. I understand these are all anecdotal and am very interested in any official testing that has been or will be done.
Thank you,
Hemophilic
P.S.: Below are some comparables I’ve compiled to illustrate. These are similarly rated 2012 compact FWD sedans and two AWD vehicles.
2WD EPA Combined Fuelly Total cars Total miles %Diff
Civic 32 34.4 94 607K 6.98
Corolla 29 31.5 48 242K 7.94
Mazda3 33 32.3 125 856K -2.17
Cruze 30 33.4 239 2.1M 10.18
Focus 31 33.4 79 882K 7.19
Elantra 32 30.1 113 953K -6.31

AWD
Legacy 26 26.4 14 143K 1.52
Lancer (2011) 25 26.4 21 189K 5.30
Impreza 30 28.1 34 315K -6.76"



I'll report back a response ASAP.
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:31 AM   #170
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Quote:
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And for the record, my cvt shows 39 on the dash with cruise set to 65 on the low rolling hills of I540 around Raleigh, NC.
Recent discussions on this (by rational people) have centered on the PZEV CVT Impreza being the poor mpg version, so I suspect yours is not especially since there is no way my '13 PZEV would do that, and I think the PZEV came out in '13.

I suspect the Consumer Reports' test vehicle is a PZEV version as well.

One can face the fact that 3 million to one odds by an esteemed research organization are more important than individual statements (aka anecdotes), or one can continue to search for and post said previous irrelevant anecdotes in an absurdly inept attempt to counter the facts.
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:48 AM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehnm View Post
Recent discussions on this (by rational people) have centered on the PZEV CVT Impreza being the poor mpg version, so I suspect yours is not especially since there is no way my '13 PZEV would do that, and I think the PZEV came out in '13.
There are '12's with PZEV....thankfully, mine is not one of them, but the base model I test drove to decide if I was even going to consider purchasing WAS PZEV.
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Old 04-07-2013, 11:06 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by jsteg View Post
There are '12's with PZEV....thankfully, mine is not one of them, but the base model I test drove to decide if I was even going to consider purchasing WAS PZEV.
Thanks - but now I am wondering whether I should have taken the '12 left on the floor at the dealer instead of waiting for a '13... The '12 showed much better mpg on the test drive.
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Old 04-07-2013, 02:18 PM   #173
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Unless the 12 was early, meaning prior to April 2012, they are all pzev. If anything they have further tuned the 13s compared to the 12s.
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Old 04-07-2013, 02:51 PM   #174
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Unless the 12 was early, meaning prior to April 2012, they are all pzev. If anything they have further tuned the 13s compared to the 12s.
How many did they make before/after April '12? My '13 was made in July of '12.
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Old 04-07-2013, 03:34 PM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehnm View Post
Recent discussions on this (by rational people) have centered on the PZEV CVT Impreza being the poor mpg version, so I suspect yours is not especially since there is no way my '13 PZEV would do that, and I think the PZEV came out in '13.

I suspect the Consumer Reports' test vehicle is a PZEV version as well.

One can face the fact that 3 million to one odds by an esteemed research organization are more important than individual statements (aka anecdotes), or one can continue to search for and post said previous irrelevant anecdotes in an absurdly inept attempt to counter the facts.
Mine is in fact a PZEV. Bought Feb '12. Manufactured Nov '11.
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