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Old 03-14-2013, 01:30 PM   #26
4wdwrx
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Don't get me wrong, I love the 1M. If used prices were reasonable, it woudl seriously be in contention...

However, honestly, the 1M really must be considered the least compelling step-up from regular to M there is in the BMW lineup.

It really is a harder pill to swallow going from a used 135i with the N54 to a used 1M with the exact same engine (w/mild tune). At least from a performance/$ standpoint.

Yes, the fenders are a big deal, and can't really be done easily. The LSD, ok, but there are $1500 options out there now. The entire suspensions are swappable from an M3. And the BMW performance shocks/springs are supposedly almost a match for the OTS M parts.

IMHO:

245s all around, BMW performance suspension (if not konis and springs), an LSD, and a $500 piggyback on a $20-25k 135i will make a very strong case against a used 1M for $20k more.

I'm imagining a similar case for the new versions of the cars (although slightly better now that it's single vs. twin turbo).

C/N: When you put the same engine in the cars, fenders and suspension make the M's a harder sell, IMHO.

The E46 M3 had about 100 more HP than the 330. The same for the E90/92. Moreover, these engines had much more character...high-revving N/A mills. Same engine, with cranked up boost? Not exactly the "M" distinction anymore...



I guess the question is, what value do you put on your car having an M badge on it?
I heard good things about the 1M, not exactly just a more powerful 135. Some compared it to the e30 M3.
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Old 03-14-2013, 01:36 PM   #27
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...and any 2 seater comes into focus for comparison sooner.
Yes, I regularly compare $180K GT2s when I cross-shop with $20K Scion tCs.
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Old 03-14-2013, 01:39 PM   #28
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I heard good things about the 1M, not exactly just a more powerful 135. Some compared it to the e30 M3.
Well, how about some examples to support the theory? That's far from the truth. What are you basing tha off of? That people love the 1M? So do I...

I'm not sure you know much about the 1M (or the E30 for that matter). The E30 had a unique unibody, it was not bits of the M5 bolted onto an E30 3 series, plus flared fenders.

The 1M uses the same chassis as the 1er and 3er. It simply bolts on the M3 suspension pieces, which also bolt on to the 1er. It uses the same motor as the 1er.

Never did I say the 1M was a 135 with more power. I said, the differences were bolt-on'able enough that it's a hard case to make.
Again, sans the fenders, you can pull off the suspension/steering rack/diff of an M3 and bolt it to your 135i, and have a 1M sans the fenders.

The engine was always a huge difference maker in the step up the M rung. With that gone....it's a harder sell.

Again, if I can spend $5k and literally bolt on M3 running gear to my 135i, and essentially have a 1M, sans fenders, for $15k less than the 1M costs...

Well...the point is pretty clear.

You cannot do that in any other M car. Period. Not in the E30, E36, E46, E90, etc. Once you share and engine and a chassis...the other bits are relatively easy to upgrade (and often are by enthusiasts anyway). That's the point.

Last edited by SoapBox; 03-14-2013 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 03-14-2013, 01:59 PM   #29
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Keep in mind, the N20 is dynoing around 230-240 AT THE WHEELS. It's actually close to a 270 HP motor in stock trim.
Yes, it's a great new plant and they are dynoing high at the wheels.

I'd kill to have a rack swap in my 1er. That's one my biggest gripes with my 1er is the slower rack, course my '05 STi had a fairly slow rack too compared to the Evos. Makes a BIG difference in *feel* of the car, and at it's limits, potentially performance of the car.

Keep in mind, some folks are willing to buy the 1M without having to swap a bunch of crap around. There's more to the 1M than just it's rack/suspension/diff etc.
You can make a WRX an STi too, but what's the point? I'm sure you can make a std. C6 a C6 Z06 with enough work. The 1M is a package. Throwing parts at a 135i is not going to get you that package very easily.
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Old 03-14-2013, 02:06 PM   #30
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There's more to the 1M than just it's rack/suspension/diff etc.
That's the point. With the 1 series, it really is a suspension, rack, and diff (and fenders).

What else is it? I'll wait....

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Originally Posted by Brahmzy View Post
You can make a WRX an STi too, but what's the point? I'm sure you can make a std. C6 a C6 Z06 with enough work. The 1M is a package. Throwing parts at a 135i is not going to get you that package very easily.
Again, the point is that it's easy to get the relevant pieces of the package on the car. The Z06 is a far cry from the regular C6. That's hardly an equal comparison. T

he WRX to STi is better...so...this is the point:

If STi prices in the aftermarket were $20k more than WRX prices (like they are 1M to 135i), and the entire drivetrain could be swapped over for $5k: For a performance/$$$ standpoint, if you can stand not to have the STI badge, it makes sense to upgrade the WRX.

And in the case the the 1M vs. 135i, there's less to swap than the WRX and STi. I swapped the diff on my m3 in a few hours on a saturday.

If all you're interested in is performance for your $$$...the 1M doesn't compel as much as the other M cars. Again, I LOVE THE CAR. But there are many who consider it the least "M" of any of the M cars. Some don't even consider it more than a parts-bin car (which it is).

Same chassis, same engine. The engine has ALWAYS been the huge upgrade M to regular. With that gone...again...broken record here.


Justify buying a used 1M to me vs. a 135i in the current market place...besides a desire to have an M badge.

Of course, some people just want the out of the box performance. No doubt. But for guys that like to wrench...it's a harder sell.

Last edited by SoapBox; 03-14-2013 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 03-14-2013, 02:24 PM   #31
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I'm just saying...the old "more than the sum of its parts" saying doesn't carry nearly the same weight with this particular car as it does with the rest of the M lineup.

I'm certainly not the first person to be faced with that reality when looking to purchase.

The 1M is made up of a 1 series chassis, a 1 series engine, and the unsprungs/diff off an M3.

It truly is the sum of other cars' parts.


Now if I'm swapping the suspension on the car anyway...am I going to drop $15-20k more for a 1M, when I'm looking at a $1800 diff swap, and a $500 rack swap? Not in this lifetime, at least with my current understanding on what the 1M is.

Last edited by SoapBox; 03-14-2013 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 03-14-2013, 03:29 PM   #32
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Some compared it to the e30 M3.
Some people suck at comparisons.
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Old 03-14-2013, 03:57 PM   #33
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not so outragous claim: the best thing about the 1m are the flares...........by a long shot.

You can decide if they asre worth the price difference but this math is always a little fuzzy. If you buy a slightly used 135 for 30k and drop 10k upgradeing it to a narrow body 1m you are in for 40k, you can own the car for a few years and sell it for 20k. Cost of ownership 20k. If you pay 50k for a 1m (which I think is a bit absurd), you can sell it used for 35k in a few years (likely). Its cheaper in the end and you actually get the pieces of flair.

Aschen would buy a pristine E46 m3 for less than 1/2 the price. It is better and cheaper.
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Old 03-14-2013, 04:54 PM   #34
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not so outragous claim: the best thing about the 1m are the flares...........by a long shot.

You can decide if they asre worth the price difference but this math is always a little fuzzy. If you buy a slightly used 135 for 30k and drop 10k upgradeing it to a narrow body 1m you are in for 40k, you can own the car for a few years and sell it for 20k. Cost of ownership 20k. If you pay 50k for a 1m (which I think is a bit absurd), you can sell it used for 35k in a few years (likely). Its cheaper in the end and you actually get the pieces of flair.

Aschen would buy a pristine E46 m3 for less than 1/2 the price. It is better and cheaper.
Agree...they are the best part of the car.

A nice 08-09 135i with 40-50k miles on it is $23-25k. About what a nice M3 costs you. I have an early E46 M3 now...but it's getting up there (100k miles, a daily).

Lucky for me, my S/O has her heart set on a 135. So...best of both worlds for me.

IMHO though, as a toy, OK, E46 all the way. As a daily, it's a much harder call which gets your low 20's. The 135 might get the nod from me despite it being a butterface. It's a much better daily, especially on roads in the north-east. Even on a stock suspension, the M3 can get a bit hammering on bad roads. And...it's hard to ignore an updated interior, and 380+ HP with a piggyback.

Small car, big engine up front driving the rear wheels. The rest can be fixed.

Last edited by SoapBox; 03-14-2013 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 03-14-2013, 05:03 PM   #35
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e46 m3 is super comfortable from my perspective. Im sure the 135 is a little better, but I think any car enthusiest could live with one as a daily. Hell my father is 73 and is certainly not hardcore and daily drove his for 8 years (he just bought a new one).
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Old 03-14-2013, 05:09 PM   #36
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e46 m3 is super comfortable from my perspective. Im sure the 135 is a little better, but I think any car enthusiest could live with one as a daily. Hell my father is 73 and is certainly not hardcore and daily drove his for 8 years (he just bought a new one).
It is ALL about where you live. I'm still fairly young (early 30's), former karter, I have nothing against a firm car. I've driven this car for the better part of 80k miles over 6 years, 60k of it on coilovers, in a very very rough area. I have no problem living with it...or even buying another one.

That being said...

First off, the high-speed damping on the stock shocks is horrid. That's a complaint shared by just about all owners (and reviews of the car). The car handles impacts much better on Konis. Still, that being said...on the horrible roads in and around philadelphia, it's still pretty darn jarring.

On coilovers (mild 500# springs), the commute is more a pot-hole dodgeball game, less of a driving event.

A new M3, by comparision, or an E36, rides like cream-puff. Again, very road condition dependent...but I'm sure not alone in calling it not at all comfortable on bad roads (let alone "super comfortable"). I bought my car in NC. And driving it around down there is completely different experience. The roads are simply a mess where I live.

Last edited by SoapBox; 03-14-2013 at 05:15 PM.
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Old 03-14-2013, 05:11 PM   #37
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Im sure the 135 is a little better
It's not even a comparision. I feel like a woman in that car it rides so nice.

















And I love it.
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Old 03-14-2013, 05:20 PM   #38
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I daily drove an elise for 2 years and still do 5-6k per year in my exige. E46 m3 feels like a lexus in comparison. I have driven my fathers M3 a few thousand miles in varied conditions and it feels fine to me. He sold his with 80 k miles for 12.5 k. I should have bought it.

The 1-2 shift on the other hand......bleh. The transmission is a pillar of mediocrity in my experience.
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Old 03-14-2013, 06:46 PM   #39
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The 1-2 in the 1er leaves a lot to be desired as well. You have to be pretty intentional about the shift and cannot slam it into gear unlike some other cars. Big reason why the DCT & Auto 1ers get so much better times. 3rd-on... as fast as you can physically shift it, no prob.
Swapping out the RFTs for SuperSports did wonders in ride quality, although it's almost too dampened now. BMW intentionally overdampened the car to make up for the solid-titanium-feeling sidewalls of the RFTs. That said, I'll deal because the roads here suck ass and I've ruined enough cars by stiffening the suspension up too much. Just a bigger front bar did wonders taming the front end at speed and that's all I'm probably going to do. I'm not 25 anymore, lol. I occasionally like to drink a cup of coffee without wearing it.
At 6,200ft, most of the older N/A M cars are real dogs up here. The N54/N55 cars are truly awesome up here - night & day difference, so the choice gets clear. FI rules up here. I've driven enough of my buddies Ms and coulda scored a couple used ones for dirt cheap, but the N/A thing broke the deal.
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Old 03-14-2013, 11:49 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by SoapBox View Post
That's the point. With the 1 series, it really is a suspension, rack, and diff (and fenders).

What else is it? I'll wait....
What about the chassis reinforcement, wider track, brakes, interior bits, bumper, wheels??? in conjunction with all those parts mentioned.

I mean, those OEM parts are not cheap.

Not to mention, the engineering resources put into it. I doubt BMW just threw parts at a 135i and called it day, like a garage project, They are professionals.
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:09 AM   #41
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1 Series is like a curvaceous lady...you want to like how she looks, but she's curvy in all the wrong places.

At least that's how I feel. Like me some sticks!
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:57 AM   #42
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What about the chassis reinforcement, wider track, brakes ??? in conjunction with all those parts mentioned.

I mean, those OEM parts are not cheap.
The wider track is suspension, which we've said is off an M3 (e.g. LCAs, again, from the M3, which you can upgrade on the 1er for $650). The knuckles? M3.

The car is essentially (call it 95%) a 135i, with the M3 suspension/diff/rack bolted on to it. For the eleventith time.

Interior bits? Bumper? We're talking about performance. We're talking about what it takes to get just about all of the tangible good of the 1M into a 135i. Compared to the rest of the lineup, the 135i is closer to the 1M than any of the other M cars are to their "regular" versions. How are you not seeing this...everyone and their mother has noted it.

Stop acting like I'm knocking the 1M. I ****ing love that thing. But it shares an engine and trans with a car that costs $20k less in the used market. That's a hell of a big pile of coin to play with upgrading the diff and suspension.
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:01 AM   #43
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The 1-2 shift on the other hand......bleh. The transmission is a pillar of mediocrity in my experience.
Don't even get me started.

The driveline in inexcusably bad.
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Old 03-15-2013, 11:15 AM   #44
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1 Series is like a curvaceous lady...you want to like how she looks, but she's curvy in all the wrong places.

At least that's how I feel. Like me some sticks!
I kinda like the curves

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Old 03-15-2013, 11:29 AM   #45
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I never really understood the criticism against the 1-series. I like it, but then again, I drive a Subaru.
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Old 03-15-2013, 11:34 AM   #46
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I kinda like the curves

Beautiful car (even though I don't like the headlights). LeMans Blue is the best.
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:11 PM   #47
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its not terrible looking in standared guise. It looks fantastic with the flares though. Otherwise, I dont find any of the modern bmws particularly attractive though
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:32 PM   #48
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The wider track is suspension, which we've said is off an M3 (e.g. LCAs, again, from the M3, which you can upgrade on the 1er for $650). The knuckles? M3.

The car is essentially (call it 95%) a 135i, with the M3 suspension/diff/rack bolted on to it. For the eleventith time.

Interior bits? Bumper? We're talking about performance. We're talking about what it takes to get just about all of the tangible good of the 1M into a 135i. Compared to the rest of the lineup, the 135i is closer to the 1M than any of the other M cars are to their "regular" versions. How are you not seeing this...everyone and their mother has noted it.

Stop acting like I'm knocking the 1M. I ****ing love that thing. But it shares an engine and trans with a car that costs $20k less in the used market. That's a hell of a big pile of coin to play with upgrading the diff and suspension.
Without the interior bits, bumper, wheels, brakes. It's not a $20k difference anymore. For the $20k difference that's the whole package your getting with a 1M. Just the performance upgrade is more around ~$12k in upgrades with a 135i and that is if you get all the parts at a good deal and wrench it yourself.

and the little extra price of BMW R&D is I think a good deal over home modification.
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:17 PM   #49
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I kinda like the curves

I see a 135 everyday at work and I can't get over how goofy it looks. Door/rocker sills look like they hang low due to the shape and when looking at the ass view, you've got that squared off haunch from the line that runs the front fenders all the way to taillights....THEN the fenders START to come out a good few inches beneath that. She's just a chunky lady to me
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Old 03-16-2013, 09:13 AM   #50
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A good read. BMW Car Magazine tests a tuned 135i and a 1M, both with the same overall $$$ in them. The 135i handily outdoes the 1M in terms of performance. The 135i would need a good bit less $$$ into it to merely match it. What it lacks? The M-badge.

And, the article completely ignores the entire start-off point to this conversation:

That you don't have to start with a $40k new 135i (which they used in their numbers). With used car prices where they are now, the 135i is a BIG leg up compared to the numbers used in the article. Imagine subtracting $15-20k off the bottom line of the 135i in the article. That would be a tuned 135i, costing 15k less than the 1M (used to used), which demolishes it in terms of performance.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=618025

Last edited by SoapBox; 03-16-2013 at 09:37 AM.
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