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Old 03-25-2013, 04:10 PM   #1
2004ImpressYa
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Default Stage 2 AP Sufficient for Down Pipe?

Alright, So after researching the the forums I couldn't find the answer to my question. Even after typing in the subject line the suggested posts did not answer my questions.

I am currently running the Cobb AP Stage 1 93 Octane v310 map. I noticed a leak in the down pipe this morning. I am sure a quick gasket fix would solve the problem but my wife doesn't know that so I am looking to capatalize on the situation and get an aftermarket down pipe (woohoo). After reading the description in the AP manager for Stage 2 maps it states the following:

" 2002-2005 Subaru WRX MT vehicle running a turbo-back exhaust with a high-flow catalytic converter, and STOCK INTAKE SYSTEM WITH STOCK AIR FILTER or COBB TUNING SF INTAKE SYSTEM ONLY. 93 or 94 octane fuels."

Now I have an automatic and running stage 1 right now with no issues (other than my boost leak, etc, thanks to the datalogs). so the transmission part I am not concerned about. With JUST a down pipe upgrade that comes attached to a high-flow cat, and stock exhaust will stage 2 be too much for my vehicle or will stage 2 be just what I need.

If I HAVE to go and get a pro-tune for buying the downpipe than I'll just try to fix the leak with some new gaskets. I have some money to spend but after getting the Cobb AND considering the Downpipe, a pro-tune would just break my budget.

I appreciate your help peoples!
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Old 03-25-2013, 04:32 PM   #2
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According to Cobb Tuning reps the stage 2 map is the way to go even with no aftermarket exhaust. If you want to keep this up encase others have questions similar, cool. If not moderators please delete.
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:41 PM   #3
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Yes, stage 2 means you added a dp. It's all you need.
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:43 PM   #4
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You should be fine to run a Stage 2 OTS map using an aftermarket downpipe mated to the factory catback exhaust. If you'd like for us to look over some datalogs to make sure everything looks good just send an email over to our customer service team and they can give it a once-over!

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Old 03-26-2013, 12:26 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning View Post
You should be fine to run a Stage 2 OTS map using an aftermarket downpipe mated to the factory catback exhaust. If you'd like for us to look over some datalogs to make sure everything looks good just send an email over to our customer service team and they can give it a once-over!

Marshall@COBB

Awesome! Thats great! I ordered the Cobb DP today. I first want to try to find this boost leak problem. get the Up pipe and down pipe installed then run the Stage 2 map. I will definitely take advantage of emailing over my map after installs.

However, a few days ago I did email my Datalogs with the stage 1 map as I noticed some issues. Havnt really gotten a response.
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Old 03-26-2013, 03:19 AM   #6
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Aftermarket uppipe is not tuned for in the ots map, only intake and dp. You may want to look into this further.
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:35 AM   #7
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Aftermarket uppipe is within the scope of our OTS maps, so no problem there. When running the stock catback with aftermarket downpipe, it can potentially be more difficult to achieve peak boost at WOT. You can get a data log in 3rd gear, if you can do so safely, to see how things look. You can post this up on google docs (or at our cobbforums) and we can take a look. Check out the data logging video below:


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Old 03-26-2013, 11:15 PM   #8
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Aftermarket uppipe is not tuned for in the ots map, only intake and dp. You may want to look into this further.
I was under the impression that the Up pipe required no tune for installation which Bill just verified.


@Bill

I've actually watched that video a couple of times. If you don't mind me asking, why would reaching peak boost be a problem with the DP and OEM Cat-Back combination? If that is the case...would the only solution be to actually buy an aftermarket Cat-Back?? O jeez...I already bought the DP...there's no turning back! lol.
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Old 03-27-2013, 10:24 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by 2004ImpressYa View Post
I've actually watched that video a couple of times. If you don't mind me asking, why would reaching peak boost be a problem with the DP and OEM Cat-Back combination? If that is the case...would the only solution be to actually buy an aftermarket Cat-Back?? O jeez...I already bought the DP...there's no turning back! lol.
Increased exhaust back pressure can require more wastegate duty to hit the same level of boost. Fortunately, though, we do have the high wastegate (HWG) maps that may be able to mitigate this (and potentially tightening the wastegate arm as well). But, when you get the DP installed, go ahead and reflash the normal wastegate stage 2 map and see where you end up via a data log, if you can do so safely.

Bill
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:30 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning View Post
Increased exhaust back pressure can require more wastegate duty to hit the same level of boost. Fortunately, though, we do have the high wastegate (HWG) maps that may be able to mitigate this (and potentially tightening the wastegate arm as well). But, when you get the DP installed, go ahead and reflash the normal wastegate stage 2 map and see where you end up via a data log, if you can do so safely.

Bill
So I have been doing some research on the Wastegate Duty Cycle, etc. just to have an idea of some "warning" signs I should be looking for after DP and stage 2 map install. I honestly couldn't understand a lot of it but some I did. What I am still confused about is the number. Under WGDC on the datalog what is ideal? High number or low number. For example with one of my first logs @ WOT from 2200 to redline the WGDC averaged a sustainable 73 while boost starting @ 2200 built up to peak 15 psi.

What does the 73 actually mean. As simple as possible....
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:38 AM   #11
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So I have been doing some research on the Wastegate Duty Cycle, etc. just to have an idea of some "warning" signs I should be looking for after DP and stage 2 map install. I honestly couldn't understand a lot of it but some I did. What I am still confused about is the number. Under WGDC on the datalog what is ideal? High number or low number. For example with one of my first logs @ WOT from 2200 to redline the WGDC averaged a sustainable 73 while boost starting @ 2200 built up to peak 15 psi.

What does the 73 actually mean. As simple as possible....
Basically you can think of a higher wastegate duty cycle as closing the wastegate more while lower opens it more. The ECU manipulates this (within certain limits) to enable you to hopefully hit your boost target. But, you don't need to look at that in the log, you simply want to look at where your boost ends up during your WOT 3rd gear run, if you can do so safely. If you are more than 1 psi below the peak target listed in the map notes for the map you are running, then you can consider running the HWG version of the map. If you are within 1 psi of the peak target then you are fine. If you are over the peak target in 3rd gear, then you would reflash the low wastegate (LWG) map.

Bill
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:00 AM   #12
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@Bill. Your awesome dude! very informative thank you.
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:20 AM   #13
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@Bill. Your awesome dude! very informative thank you.
No problem!

Bill
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:52 PM   #14
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Alright so I got the Cobb Downpipe installed today. I will have to do further work tomorrow because it appears I am leaking from the downpipe-to-turbo connection...don't know what went wrong there but I think its because of my connection order...I started from Cat-back and went toward the turbo instead maybe I should start from turbo and go back toward cat.

Anyway... I did my first data log of the stage 2 map. Currently all mods are::

K&N Drop-In Panel Filter W/ Silencer Delete
Cobb Downpipe

Grimspeed up pipe is en route along with heavy duty thinker Exhaust manifold gasket and turbo-to-downpipe gasket.
The biggest difference in data log from stage 1 to stage 2 was my AF learning is not as extreme as it was in stage 1, it seems to have leveled out below +6 where before reflash I was hitting +9 and +14 at times (except for WOT on both maps, AF was always 0 @ WOT) with 2-3 knock occurences. Stage 2 upgrade shows NO knock occurences. According to map details I should be running 17 psi, I peaked at 15.5 (I tried a boost leak test TWICE and I couldn't find anything, should I focus on adjusting my wastegate?? )

I attached my data log for all of your review ( I retitled some of the columns so it would all fit without have to scan left to right, the titles are easy to understand though)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Hc&usp=sharing

Last edited by 2004ImpressYa; 03-31-2013 at 11:05 PM. Reason: To adjust numbers
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Old 04-01-2013, 09:36 AM   #15
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Alright so I got the Cobb Downpipe installed today. I will have to do further work tomorrow because it appears I am leaking from the downpipe-to-turbo connection...don't know what went wrong there but I think its because of my connection order...I started from Cat-back and went toward the turbo instead maybe I should start from turbo and go back toward cat.

Anyway... I did my first data log of the stage 2 map. Currently all mods are::

K&N Drop-In Panel Filter W/ Silencer Delete
Cobb Downpipe

Grimspeed up pipe is en route along with heavy duty thinker Exhaust manifold gasket and turbo-to-downpipe gasket.
The biggest difference in data log from stage 1 to stage 2 was my AF learning is not as extreme as it was in stage 1, it seems to have leveled out below +6 where before reflash I was hitting +9 and +14 at times (except for WOT on both maps, AF was always 0 @ WOT) with 2-3 knock occurences. Stage 2 upgrade shows NO knock occurences. According to map details I should be running 17 psi, I peaked at 15.5 (I tried a boost leak test TWICE and I couldn't find anything, should I focus on adjusting my wastegate?? )

I attached my data log for all of your review ( I retitled some of the columns so it would all fit without have to scan left to right, the titles are easy to understand though)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Hc&usp=sharing
I would get that leak fixed before doing any more driving - carbon monoxide poisoning can be deadly.

I mentioned in your other thread to make sure you reflashed the stage 2 map (instead of realtime flashed) - not sure if that is what you did already for this run. For any future runs, I would reset the log list to the default as you are missing some key parameters (use Reset Log List function under Monitors menu). No need to rename the monitor names in the log.

Once you have that reflashed, I would drive around through a full tank of gas and then check your A/F Learning 1 A,B,C,D values. This is before worrying about any WOT pulls.

Bill
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:06 AM   #16
2004ImpressYa
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I would get that leak fixed before doing any more driving - carbon monoxide poisoning can be deadly.

I mentioned in your other thread to make sure you reflashed the stage 2 map (instead of realtime flashed) - not sure if that is what you did already for this run. For any future runs, I would reset the log list to the default as you are missing some key parameters (use Reset Log List function under Monitors menu). No need to rename the monitor names in the log.

Once you have that reflashed, I would drive around through a full tank of gas and then check your A/F Learning 1 A,B,C,D values. This is before worrying about any WOT pulls.

Bill

Yes I did the reflash instead of realtime flash. im going to work on the downpipe leak now....that's scary.... no more WOT until I run her for a bit, got it. I will post new data log in a few days.
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:47 PM   #17
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Im noticing some different sounds...Its really hard to explain...there's this flutter spool just before breaking vacuum into boost. I looked at my connections again and im starting to see light spots of oil where the turbo connects to the intercooler Y-pipe. In fact yesterday during Downpipe install I removed the intercooler for better access to some of the bolts and I noticed this gunky black and yellow build up on the rubber hoses and black metal pipes from the intercooler and very light film of oil at the intercooler connection to the throttle body and the turbo-to-intercooler...WTH IS GOING ON!? I don't think this is normal???

Why do I feel like im ruining my car or finding very bad things...I've only owned the car for like 2 months...
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Old 04-01-2013, 02:44 PM   #18
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I looked at my connections again and im starting to see light spots of oil where the turbo connects to the intercooler Y-pipe. In fact yesterday during Downpipe install I removed the intercooler for better access to some of the bolts and I noticed this gunky black and yellow build up on the rubber hoses and black metal pipes from the intercooler and very light film of oil at the intercooler connection to the throttle body and the turbo-to-intercooler...WTH IS GOING ON!? I don't think this is normal???

Why do I feel like im ruining my car or finding very bad things...I've only owned the car for like 2 months...

It's blow-by and some oil is normal:
http://flatironsrally.typepad.com/fa...s-blow-by.html
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:18 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by 2004ImpressYa View Post
Im noticing some different sounds...Its really hard to explain...there's this flutter spool just before breaking vacuum into boost. I looked at my connections again and im starting to see light spots of oil where the turbo connects to the intercooler Y-pipe. In fact yesterday during Downpipe install I removed the intercooler for better access to some of the bolts and I noticed this gunky black and yellow build up on the rubber hoses and black metal pipes from the intercooler and very light film of oil at the intercooler connection to the throttle body and the turbo-to-intercooler...WTH IS GOING ON!? I don't think this is normal???

Why do I feel like im ruining my car or finding very bad things...I've only owned the car for like 2 months...
You will definitely hear more turbo-related sounds, etc. with an aftermarket downpipe vs. stock. This is normal. Also, as nmlittlebigman mentioned, some oil is normal as long as it is not excessive. Some oil brands/types seem to be more susceptible to blow-by in our cars (apparently Mobil 1), but you won't completely eliminate this no matter what you use.

Bill
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Old 04-02-2013, 11:07 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning View Post
You will definitely hear more turbo-related sounds, etc. with an aftermarket downpipe vs. stock. This is normal. Also, as nmlittlebigman mentioned, some oil is normal as long as it is not excessive. Some oil brands/types seem to be more susceptible to blow-by in our cars (apparently Mobil 1), but you won't completely eliminate this no matter what you use.

Bill
lol, that's exactly what I use, the Mobil 1, going to switch to royal purple. coming close to the "okay to WOT" point, once I do I will post new Data logs.

Question: how does the economy map work with mods qualified for stage 2?? is it a good idea to switch back and forth like that?
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:04 AM   #21
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lol, that's exactly what I use, the Mobil 1, going to switch to royal purple. coming close to the "okay to WOT" point, once I do I will post new Data logs.

Question: how does the economy map work with mods qualified for stage 2?? is it a good idea to switch back and forth like that?
Boost control is disabled in the economy map - it is a map designed for best fuel economy not performance, but will work perfectly fine with the stage 2 setup for the purpose of economy. It isn't a problem to switch back and forth between the stage 2 and economy map.

Bill
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:54 PM   #22
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Alright so I gave some time for everything to settle in as far as mods and map changes. I even allowed the ECU to relearn something after I cleared a petty CEL.

2004 WRX; Cobb Downpipe with Cat, K&N Drop-in Panel Filter.
Running Stage 2 93 Octane Map. Went High Wastegate since I was not hitting target boost. Immediately I notice that I am still missing target boost by at least 2 psi. I also noted that the MAF g/s in previous logs before HWG map I would hit 210 @ peak. These logs I barely break 200. There was some knock learns, the most I've ever actually seen in any of my logs. However the DAM was untouched but you'll notice the correction in the Dynamic Advance.
Wastegate is definitely working toward building more boost. @ WOT its at 94% which is higher than the usual ~80% I saw in NON High Wastegate maps....yet I am still not hitting my target. I've performed boost leak tests by pumping as much as building up to 14 psi into the intake tubing with no major leaks noted...unless I am doing something completely wrong and I can't find my leak. Will a leak at the Downpipe-to-turbo connection cause a problem with reaching peak boost?

Anyway I attached my logs for review and feedback.
First log is a 2nd gear run:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...kE&usp=sharing

This log is a 3rd gear run. I couldn't take it completely to redline because I was pretty damn close to 120 MPH and running out of room!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...EE&usp=sharing
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:44 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by 2004ImpressYa View Post
Alright so I gave some time for everything to settle in as far as mods and map changes. I even allowed the ECU to relearn something after I cleared a petty CEL.

2004 WRX; Cobb Downpipe with Cat, K&N Drop-in Panel Filter.
Running Stage 2 93 Octane Map. Went High Wastegate since I was not hitting target boost. Immediately I notice that I am still missing target boost by at least 2 psi. I also noted that the MAF g/s in previous logs before HWG map I would hit 210 @ peak. These logs I barely break 200. There was some knock learns, the most I've ever actually seen in any of my logs. However the DAM was untouched but you'll notice the correction in the Dynamic Advance.
Wastegate is definitely working toward building more boost. @ WOT its at 94% which is higher than the usual ~80% I saw in NON High Wastegate maps....yet I am still not hitting my target. I've performed boost leak tests by pumping as much as building up to 14 psi into the intake tubing with no major leaks noted...unless I am doing something completely wrong and I can't find my leak. Will a leak at the Downpipe-to-turbo connection cause a problem with reaching peak boost?

Anyway I attached my logs for review and feedback.
First log is a 2nd gear run:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...kE&usp=sharing

This log is a 3rd gear run. I couldn't take it completely to redline because I was pretty damn close to 120 MPH and running out of room!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...EE&usp=sharing
Before worrying about the boost, you want to drive through at least a full tank of gas without reflashing any maps or resetting the ECU. Then check your A/F Learning 1 A,B,C,D values via the live data function as mentioned earlier. They look fine in these logs, but they are trending in a generally positive between the logs, but I'm not sure how much driving you've done since the last reflash/reset. That is just a sanity check before you start to work on the boost issue, which is definitely a mechanical issue.

When that checks out, you'll want to tighten the wastegate arm, if you feel comfortable doing so (see various DIY tutorial on Nasioc). The ECU is pegging a very high commanded wastegate duty so it has no control over your underboosting. Try tightening 1 full turn and get additional data logs. If this gets you much closer but not quite there, then tighten in 1/2 turn steps (with data logs after each change) until you get within 1 psi of your peak boost target without going over. If this does relatively nothing, then you may have another issue with boost control hardware.

Bill
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Old 04-22-2013, 09:15 AM   #24
2004ImpressYa
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ALRIGHTY! After 2 months of waiting the Grimspeed Up pipe is finally in! Got a nice gasket for the Downpipe also!

Im excited to see how this up pipe will feel with the Stage 2 map. Im just contemplating whether to do it myself or taking it to a shop to get it installed!




Either case when I get this thing in, waiting about a tank and 1/2 of consumption and will run datalog and post up for everyone to help evaluate, of course specifically inviting the feedback from the helpful educated friend of the Forums Mr. Bill @ COBB (Keep up the good work brotha)
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Old 04-24-2013, 10:51 PM   #25
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ALRIGHTY! After 2 months of waiting the Grimspeed Up pipe is finally in! Got a nice gasket for the Downpipe also!

Im excited to see how this up pipe will feel with the Stage 2 map. Im just contemplating whether to do it myself or taking it to a shop to get it installed!

Either case when I get this thing in, waiting about a tank and 1/2 of consumption and will run datalog and post up for everyone to help evaluate, of course specifically inviting the feedback from the helpful educated friend of the Forums Mr. Bill @ COBB (Keep up the good work brotha)
You will love it. I just added an up pipe to my wrx a couple weeks ago, no pro tune yet. I found out real quick I needed new motor mounts and trans mount. Now it's solid power! Can't wait for the next step. Process west intercooler!
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