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Old 04-05-2013, 09:23 AM   #1
jthatch12
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Default $150 660cc Injectors (yes they work)

WARNING - SOME MODIFICATION TO INJECTOR HOUSING NEEDED

Vehicle: 2003 WRX

Product Title: Venom Performance 660cc Injectors

Product Description: Uncapped, Modified Denso Injectors (Vendor Provided Flowtest report included)

Cost: $150

Hey everyone, this is one of my first real reviews. Yesterday my brother in law and I just got done installing 660cc injectors purchased from TLFPerformanceParts for $150... yes thats 4 injectors for $150! The injectors are modified by Venom Performance and came with a flowtest sheet (will upload this later, currently away from home).

Though some modification to the injector housing was needed for installation, these injectors very affordable and are performing well with no other changes to the tune besides the obvious Scaling, Latency, Tip-in parameters. Car feels and drives exactly like it did before with the stock injectors (less some additional tweaking needed to optimize latency & tip-in enrichment, more to come on that).

Sounds too good to be true for 150 bucks doesn't it?

The only catch is that you have to modify the plastic injector housing to remove some material to clear the TGV port so the injector can seat properly aganist the rubber grommet at the base of the nozzle. We found this out the hard way as the intereference was not apparent until the install was completed and MASSIVE vacuum leaks presented themselves at start-up.

The picture below shows a stock injector (blue/gray) next to the Venom 660cc injector (organge). Notice the silver-ish ring about the OD of the orange housin of the Venom injector. This impression was caused by intereference with the TGV port hole during the first installation.




Looking at the injectors side by side you can see how much thicker the new injector is in comparison to the stockers. During the initial install the interference condition was not obvious. We were able to install all injectors and torque down the rails to spec without any issue. The additional injector height that was created by the interference condition was absorbed by "smushing" the C-section grommet at the top of each injector when the rail was bolted down. As you can imagine we ran into some pretty big issues with vacuum leaks at the first start-up.

The thicker injector housing riding on the top of the TGV port was preventing the flange around the base of the nozzle from sealing against the grommet Thus creating a manifold leak at each injector (no fuel leaks were observed).




The solution was to carefully grind away some of the plastic injector housing to achieve a similiar Outer Diameter as a stock injector in order to clear the TGV port (Kudos to my Brother in law Scott!). In the picture below, you can see a faint impression on the stock injector that denotes how deep into the TGV the injector sits. We had thrown around the idea of countersinking / counterboring the the TGV ports but shuddered at the risks involved with performing that kind of modificaiton with TGV's still installed on the vehicle. However, had the TGV's been off vehicle (delete mod, etc.) we would have likely pursued this route as there appears to be a large amount of excess material present on the TGV's around the injector port.

Side by side comparison between : Unmodified, Modified, and Stock








First we tried the injector housing modifications on the drivers side only and noticed a improvement. Immediate Fuel Correction was still pegged @ +25, but the AFR had droped from 19-22 @ idle to 15-17. Long story short we gave the passenger side injectors the same treatment and everything returned to normal. It was a night and day difference. With an injector scaler of 660 and stock latency values the Immediate correction was dancing around -3. There is a little more tuning we have to take care of regarding tip-in enrichment and latency, but for now the car is running like a champ!

In conclusion, there was some risk involved with shaving down the injector housings but I felt that at a price point of 150 bucks it was worth the risk. Boy was I glad we went ahead with it!

I will upload more supporting data when I get a chance. Feel free to ask any questions!

Tuning for the injectors:


Update 5/2/13, latency values dialed in as well as tip-in. All corrections are now within 3%


More pictures from the install are available here on dropbox:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/s8vbefe5duwfexz/oOycH_OaxL


TLF Performance Parts Website:
http://www.tlfperformanceparts.com/

VENOM Performance:
http://www.venom-performance.com/

*for clarification, as stated Venom Performance is the company that modifies the injectors, TLF simply flow tests them and sells them
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Last edited by jthatch12; 05-02-2013 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:18 AM   #2
T-37
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Wow, for what you're saving and the extra work required (plus the chance to **** something up) I don't really think that's worth it...DW650s are only $169 (after the $200 rebate you get for sending your stockers in.)
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:31 AM   #3
jthatch12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-37 View Post
Wow, for what you're saving and the extra work required (plus the chance to **** something up) I don't really think that's worth it...DW650s are only $169 (after the $200 rebate you get for sending your stockers in.)
Still, at the time I didn't have $369 to shell out(back in november when I purchased them). Yeah it was a risk but honestly, I think it was worth it. Both my brother in law and I are engineers so we love problem solving. This project definitely isn't for the faint of heart.

Not to mention after selling my stock injectors this upgrade could end up having no cost

Last edited by jthatch12; 04-05-2013 at 10:39 AM.
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:51 AM   #4
RubbleDTD
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Hey John, you might want to clarify in the 2nd paragraph that the issue was that the thicker injector housing was riding on the top of the TGV injector port preventing the flange around the base of the nozzle from sealing against the grommet. This was the source of the vacuum leaks.

I admit, I was very apprehensive about "grinding down an injector body", but the component causing the interference was only the molded plastic housing and we figured at this price point it was worth the risk.

It was a night an day difference when we reinstalled them after modification. Initially the engine could barely idle the leaks were so bad (19 - 22 AFR @ pegged correction values). After modifying the injector housing to clear the TGV port the immediate AF corrections (not to be confused with stored trim values A,B,C,D) went from being pegged @ +25 to hovering right around -3!

We did some driving and tweaked the Tip in Enrichment as a result, but other than that it drove great. No anomallies noticed in the logs.

Will give updates as we get the latency / tip-in / MAF scaling dialed in over the next few weeks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T-37 View Post
Wow, for what you're saving and the extra work required (plus the chance to **** something up) I don't really think that's worth it...DW650s are only $169 (after the $200 rebate you get for sending your stockers in.)
When I went to DW 650's back in 2007 the rebate for the 02-05 stockers (top feed blue) was only $25 per. Considering these injectors are 150 out of the box, they are a very good deal. Especially if you sell the stockers or get a core refund from a vendor.

The rework required really isn't as scary as it sounds. Your not grinding metal, just shaving down the plastic housing. Took maybe 30 minutes to modify all 4.

Last edited by RubbleDTD; 04-05-2013 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:05 PM   #5
jthatch12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RubbleDTD View Post
The rework required really isn't as scary as it sounds. Your not grinding metal, just shaving down the plastic housing. Took maybe 30 minutes to modify all 4.
^this. Thanks for the inputs Scott!
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:27 PM   #6
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car parts are just like anything else in life...you get what you pay for. Goodluck with running them and I am curious to see how they work out down the line. Personally I would never modify anything to that extent having to deal with fueling.
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:10 PM   #7
jthatch12
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Still running good with no issues.
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Old 05-02-2013, 05:51 PM   #8
jthatch12
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Update, after almost a month I have all the latencies and tip-in values set. I couldn't be happier with this injectors!
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Old 05-15-2013, 02:42 PM   #9
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those look identical to the five o motorsports 800cc injectors i got awhile ago i had to do the same thing to the injector body absolutely easy as cake and just to be clear dw will only give 100 for stock wrx blues and 200 for dark blues which already flow 565 so i dont know why you would buy injectors to only flow 100 more cc but thanks for the post ive been looking for some small injectors for my dd
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Old 05-16-2013, 03:08 PM   #10
jthatch12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tofer9458 View Post
those look identical to the five o motorsports 800cc injectors i got awhile ago i had to do the same thing to the injector body absolutely easy as cake and just to be clear dw will only give 100 for stock wrx blues and 200 for dark blues which already flow 565 so i dont know why you would buy injectors to only flow 100 more cc but thanks for the post ive been looking for some small injectors for my dd
03 stock injectors only flow 440cc. I was literally maxing them out with a TD04. Sometime in June I'll be upgrading to a VF39. I didn't want overly large injectors
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Old 07-13-2013, 09:34 PM   #11
jthatch12
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Sorry for the delay on this. Here's the flow chart :



Injectors are still running great! I've since upgraded to a TD-05 16G and haven't run into any issues with the injectors.
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Old 12-23-2013, 03:03 PM   #12
jthatch12
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Update: injectors still running great. Approaching a year in a few months. Now running a TD-05 16G and a 320 LPH fuel pump. Couldn't be happier with these injectors
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Old 06-08-2014, 09:32 AM   #13
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Came across this in a search about injectors and tuning.

Injectors still going good?
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