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Old 10-17-2013, 11:07 AM   #176
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IIRC, Wal-Mart was out of the M1 0W-40 when I went the first time, When I came back they had restocked the shelves. I believe it was SN as they were opening the packages in front of me, it had to have been newer.

When I ordered my car, I did months of research on BITOG and searching for UOA's. It was a tossup between the M1 Euro, RT6 (Have ran before), or Motul. I wanted to go with an oil that provided better all around protection, thus 0W-40. Based off of the limited amount of Subaru UOA's, I decided to go with the M1 Euro. I guess I'll be the guinea pig to figure if the oil is good for our cars or not.

So far, I have run this oil since 5,244 and I am currently at 13,1xx. No consumption, no top offs, granted this is a brand new car, so their should not be.

I did have one question in regards to shearing. Is it the actual oil that sheared or was it caused by the ~10% factory oil that remained in the engine? Why would Blackstone give a slight recommendation of running the oil even longer? It appears to me that the oil (based off of Blackstone readings) didn't shear much at all.
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Old 10-17-2013, 12:17 PM   #177
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Blackstone probably recommended a longer OCI based on the TBN, which was still strong at 4.3.

Edit: Kinda funny that they suggest only going ~400 miles more than you did on this one (i.e. 6,000 vs. 5,5xx) with results they gave. When do plan do next change & UOA? 8,000 is a good long run...

Last edited by oaklandish_WRX; 10-17-2013 at 12:30 PM. Reason: edeet
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:11 PM   #178
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oaklandish_wrx, I dunno yet. When I check my oil, I also like to look at the color. I've changed every 5K ish based on color and obsession.

I may go to 6, I don't know. If it sheared at 5K, why would I want to go to 6+?
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:46 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo0stin5STI View Post
oaklandish_wrx, I dunno yet. When I check my oil, I also like to look at the color. I've changed every 5K ish based on color and obsession.

I may go to 6, I don't know. If it sheared at 5K, why would I want to go to 6+?
I misread the UOA sheet - you're only at about 3K now.

Color? You might as well taste it. Search around, color means zero. I've had the blackest oil imaginable (RT6) test at B-stone as just fine and dandy; dark = doing its job.

The TBN means the add pack is still working, and the viscosity is still a high 30 grade, quite suitable. And as was mentioned, it may have been diluted by the previous fill. You can always just sample and test without draining and make a decision on OCI then. GL!
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Old 10-17-2013, 06:18 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo0stin5STI View Post
IIRC, Wal-Mart was out of the M1 0W-40 when I went the first time, When I came back they had restocked the shelves. I believe it was SN as they were opening the packages in front of me, it had to have been newer.
Gotta be the SN stuff then. Walmart doesn't keep lots of stock and it's been 18+ months since the SN stuff started to appear. I don't think Wal-Mart ever stocked 5qt jugs of the SM version.

Quote:
When I ordered my car, I did months of research on BITOG and searching for UOA's. It was a tossup between the M1 Euro, RT6 (Have ran before), or Motul. I wanted to go with an oil that provided better all around protection, thus 0W-40. Based off of the limited amount of Subaru UOA's, I decided to go with the M1 Euro. I guess I'll be the guinea pig to figure if the oil is good for our cars or not.
Dennis (bluesubie) has run M1 0w40 several times, so you're not the first, but it always helps to have more UOA confirmation that it works well.

Quote:
I did have one question in regards to shearing. Is it the actual oil that sheared or was it caused by the ~10% factory oil that remained in the engine? Why would Blackstone give a slight recommendation of running the oil even longer? It appears to me that the oil (based off of Blackstone readings) didn't shear much at all.
***See Edit Below*** I got the KV100 for M1 0w40 wrong from memory, it's 13.5 cSt, not 14.5.

Well, the actual viscosity should be a weighted average, so if the factory oil stayed at 8 cSt, and M1 0w40 stayed at 14.5 cSt, you'd expect the mix to be about 13.85 cSt. That is 14.5*0.9 + 8*0.1. Since your oil is thinner than that, the M1 0w40 did experience some shearing. Remember though that the important HTHS viscosity generally reduces by half the percentage that the KV100 does. Simplified math not accounting for mixing: (14.5-11.94)/14.5 = 17.6% 17.6%/2 = 8.8%, 3.8 * .912 = 3.46.

So M1 0w40 ends up with an HTHS which is still notably higher than any 5w30 Resource Conserving oil, though it's probably not any thicker than say M1 ESP 5w30 would be.

As to Blackstone's recommendations, I've got no advice. I started ignoring their comments long ago, and then stopped using them all together (I use Amsoil/Polaris Labs). You may not be comfortable with it, but M1 0w40 should easily go 7,500 mi. Blackstone may just being conservative given how new the engine is.

Edit:
I knew 18% shear sounded like too much. That'll teach me to go from memory. Actual KV100 for M1 0w40 is 13.5 cSt, not 14.5. Actual weighted average calcs and shearing calcs are:
13.5*.9 + 8*0.1 = 12.95

(13.5-11.94)/13.5 = 11.5%, 11.5/2 = 5.75% 3.8*0.945 = 3.591.

None of the conclusions change, but the original calcs were wrong.

Last edited by gpshumway; 10-17-2013 at 07:30 PM. Reason: D'oh
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Old 10-17-2013, 08:44 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo0stin5STI View Post
Based off of the limited amount of Subaru UOA's, I decided to go with the M1 Euro. I guess I'll be the guinea pig to figure if the oil is good for our cars or not. So far, I have run this oil since 5,244 and I am currently at 13,1xx. No consumption, no top offs, granted this is a brand new car, so their should not be. I did have one question in regards to shearing. Is it the actual oil that sheared or was it caused by the ~10% factory oil that remained in the engine? Why would Blackstone give a slight recommendation of running the oil even longer? It appears to me that the oil (based off of Blackstone readings) didn't shear much at all.
I'm going on my 3rd round of M1 0W-40 next month, its all I've used in my car thus far and don't plan on changing to anything else anytime soon.
I was going to send out a UOA earlier last spring but decided not to do so. I'm only running 5K intervals and given all the UOA I've seen done on this oil I don't feel the least bit worried about it. I would though if I were going to stretch it out, especially given our small sumps.

As far as shearing, I wouldn't at all worry about it. M1 0W-40 is a heavy 30 grade with a very decent VI of ~186(?) and a high HTHSV of 3.8. It'll hold up just fine in your motor.
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Old 10-18-2013, 07:41 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by gpshumway View Post
Yea, the SN version is better than the SM version, but it's still not as shear stable as RT6 or TDT. The other factor here is the factory oil at 8 cSt, since you can only drain ~90% of the oil out of the engine, the remaining factory fill is thinning the M1 0w40.
Don't forget that there are also uoa's here where RT6 sheared to a 30 grade. Good point about some factory fill still remaining in the engine. Like you mentioned, it is a light 40 grade oil so the shear % isn't so bad. I wish they would put the factory fill additive package into the dealer Idemitsu oil.

-Dennis
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Old 10-18-2013, 11:46 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post
Don't forget that there are also uoa's here where RT6 sheared to a 30 grade. Good point about some factory fill still remaining in the engine. Like you mentioned, it is a light 40 grade oil so the shear % isn't so bad. I wish they would put the factory fill additive package into the dealer Idemitsu oil.

-Dennis
Yes, I've had RT6 as thin as 12.2 cSt in my own car, and several times right at the 12.5 cSt mark, thickest it ever came out was 13.1.

With all the UOA data I've seen now, especially in my own vehicles where the conditions are fairly controlled, I've concluded the KV100 measurement is pretty volatile. That makes it hard to judge an oil's "shear stability" from UOA, you need lots of data. I put shear stability in quotes because fuel dilution also plays a role in KV100, and that is poorly captured by UOAs, especially Blackstone.
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Old 10-23-2013, 05:38 PM   #184
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Pennzoil Ultra 5w-30
Mileage is slightly incorrect on the sheet. Should be 3131.



A bit more of an interesting UOA...
Going to give it another short OCI, same oil. Other numbers are on par
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Old 10-23-2013, 05:53 PM   #185
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Holy Copper, Batman! Highest I've had is 36ppm, and that's with Redline which is supposed to leach Copper with its ester base stock. Yours appears to be going up as well.

Maybe I haven't been paying attention, but do lots of STIs show such high copper readings? Speculation was it's the oil cooler to blame.

Additionally the KV100 is pretty low (20wt). What's your driving like? Lots of short trips?

Other than that it looks pretty good, wear metals and flashpoint are good.
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Old 10-23-2013, 07:29 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by gpshumway View Post
Holy Copper, Batman! Highest I've had is 36ppm, and that's with Redline which is supposed to leach Copper with its ester base stock. Yours appears to be going up as well.

Maybe I haven't been paying attention, but do lots of STIs show such high copper readings? Speculation was it's the oil cooler to blame.

Additionally the KV100 is pretty low (20wt). What's your driving like? Lots of short trips?

Other than that it looks pretty good, wear metals and flashpoint are good.
Ya they show elevated readings of copper, I couldn't find a UOA near the 200s though....

Majority of my mileage is highway, 6th gear about 3k to 3.5k RPM. 1 trip for commuting to work is 25 miles for me.
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Old 10-23-2013, 10:55 PM   #187
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My copper has never been that high and I have an oil cooler. This reminds me of the high copper in the 08/09 stop sale turbos. Try switching from girly man oil or mix in a couple of quarts of PU 5W-40.

-Dennis
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Old 10-24-2013, 12:59 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Toombs View Post
Ya they show elevated readings of copper, I couldn't find a UOA near the 200s though....

Majority of my mileage is highway, 6th gear about 3k to 3.5k RPM. 1 trip for commuting to work is 25 miles for me.
I just did a bit of poking around IWSTI, it seems very few are over 100 ppm of copper, and most are under 50 ppm. Here's a good thread:
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/2-5-lite...-2011-sti.html

Also interesting to see that the Subaru/Idemitsu oil held it's KV100 better than PU. I'm guessing the SN formula is better than the original SM formula. You certainly don't do the kind of driving I would expect to be hard on oil. Have you monitored your MAP and/or AFRs? 3-3.5k RPM is high enough to be generating some boost.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:58 AM   #189
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Right, the only one that was close was some guy saying his FF was above 200 ppm. It's tough to figure out the source of the copper considering everything else is bang on.

Quote:
Also interesting to see that the Subaru/Idemitsu oil held it's KV100 better than PU. I'm guessing the SN formula is better than the original SM formula. You certainly don't do the kind of driving I would expect to be hard on oil. Have you monitored your MAP and/or AFRs? 3-3.5k RPM is high enough to be generating some boost.
Nope, don't see a need with stock tune, besides I don't have the tools to do so. You're hinting that I'm running rich thus the lower viscosity?
I certainly enjoy the car and take advantage of my car's "passing ability" but I never whomp on the gas unless the car has been driving for at least 10-15 minutes to insure oil is up to temp. I average 21~ mpg (from the dash), if that's any indication.

Last edited by Toombs; 10-24-2013 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 10-24-2013, 03:37 PM   #190
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Yea, I'm wondering how rich you're running. These cars run <10.5:1 AFR at full throttle, so even with the stock tune you can end up with substantial fuel dilution. Flashpoint still looks pretty good, so it's not obviously fuel, but that's still the lowest KV100 I recall for PU. You might be able to borrow a friend's AccessPort or Tactrix cable, or any reasonably sophisticated OBDII scanner for that matter. Not a huge deal, but something you might consider if you're curious. 21mpg sounds about right, I average 26 most of the time in my car, but I don't drive as fast as you do.

Indeed, the copper is a bit of a concern. Leeching from the oil cooler is no problem, but there are a very limited number of other places it could be coming from. I don't think the small end bearings are bronze, I can't think of anything in the valvetrain, so that basically leaves the turbo bearings.

Anybody else have some idea where it's coming from?
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Old 10-24-2013, 07:55 PM   #191
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Anybody else have some idea where it's coming from?
No, but with three consecutive increases on a wear metal is usually what Blackstone would call a trend. Three more consecutive increases on a Blackstone uoa probably wouldn't yield much more in the way of a resolution either.

But this might: http://www.dysonanalysis.com/Dyson_A...s/Welcome.html

This is what OAI says:

Q: My sample has a high copper number. Where is it coming from?

A: If only the copper is high, but no other metals such as lead, tin, or aluminum are elevated, it is mostly an oxide of copper from the oil cooler. As the oil cooler is exposed to the heat from the engine oil, it can sometimes oxidize the copper, which will show up in the analysis report. This is considered a normal condition and no corrective action is required. This process usually will taper off or stop occurring over time.

It's odd that it hasn't tapered off yet.

-Dennis

Last edited by bluesubie; 10-24-2013 at 10:23 PM.
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:38 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post
But this might: http://www.dysonanalysis.com/Dyson_A...s/Welcome.html

It's odd that it hasn't tapered off yet.

-Dennis
Exactly what I was thinking. PU is not Ester, so it shouldn't have high TAN, which causes oxidation in the cooler, it should be tapering off, or at least stabilizing <50 ppm.

If Mr. Toombs (Ms.?) is nervous, an investment in some advice from Mr. Dyson may be a good idea. I wonder if there's a test similar to ferrographic analysis for copper...
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:51 PM   #193
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Here's my 3rd UOA. This is a longer 5200 mile run on the Subaru 5w30 synthetic.



I was expecting worse fuel dilution, worse viscosity and worse TBN, but they all improved.

The only thing that got worse was silver, but everything else improved. I'd love to know where that silver is coming from. Probably bearings, but all the other minor wear metals zeroed out. ???

Make-up oil was 2/3 quart of Rotella T6, and this run included about 1600 miles round-trip to West Texas and driving around Big Bend.

I'm now at 15300 and it hasn't used a drop of the Subaru 15w30. I'll run another 2000 on this oil I think, about another month and a half.

The only thing I've done differently is I did a bunch of hard pulls. Hey, maybe the rings finally seated!

Edit: Ha! Just to be clear, that was the previous fill. I'm on a new fill at 3000 with no usage, and planning another 2000. Expecting to look as good as the last one above hopefully. Nice that it's stopped using oil, and looking at the pattern, seems like 10 - 12k is a good mileage to expect one of these things to be properly broke-in.

Last edited by kabz; 10-30-2013 at 07:49 PM.
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:56 PM   #194
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Looks like a great run, honestly.

What's the virgin KV100 of the Subaru oil? 10.58 is pretty darn thick for used RC 5w30. Maybe the API SN version of this oil is a lot better than the weak-sauce SM version after all.
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:56 PM   #195
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Stupid double post.
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Old 10-30-2013, 01:08 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by gpshumway View Post
Looks like a great run, honestly.

What's the virgin KV100 of the Subaru oil? 10.58 is pretty darn thick for used RC 5w30. Maybe the API SN version of this oil is a lot better than the weak-sauce SM version after all.
2/3 qt of T6 was added though.

The 2nd UOA Kabz did is more in line of what you'd see 9.93. Mine was similar at 9.69

Virgin Subaru 5w-30:

@40C=62.88 cSt
@100C=11.82 cSt
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Old 10-30-2013, 08:30 PM   #197
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2/3 qt of T6 was added though.
D'oh.

I missed that. Nothing to see here.
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Old 11-06-2013, 06:13 PM   #198
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I just got my first report in. Everything looks good according to them. Curious about the high magnesium levels in my sample. According to the info page it is used as a detergent/additive in the oil? Typical for castrol?

Either way... This is using 10W-30 castrol synthetic. 5,500km on the oil. ~60k km on 2.5RS SOHC heads and ~40k km on 2011 sti shortblock with AVO turbo kit at about 8lbs of boost. Was curious about the oversized oil pump for this motor and was mostly curious about the excess sheer on the oil.



Thoughts?
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Old 11-06-2013, 10:11 PM   #199
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No, but with three consecutive increases on a wear metal is usually what Blackstone would call a trend. Three more consecutive increases on a Blackstone uoa probably wouldn't yield much more in the way of a resolution either.

But this might: http://www.dysonanalysis.com/Dyson_A...s/Welcome.html

This is what OAI says:

Q: My sample has a high copper number. Where is it coming from?

A: If only the copper is high, but no other metals such as lead, tin, or aluminum are elevated, it is mostly an oxide of copper from the oil cooler. As the oil cooler is exposed to the heat from the engine oil, it can sometimes oxidize the copper, which will show up in the analysis report. This is considered a normal condition and no corrective action is required. This process usually will taper off or stop occurring over time.

It's odd that it hasn't tapered off yet.

-Dennis
My last 2 runs of M1 0W40 have shown slightly elevated levels of copper, at 18ppm, but not the signature elevation of iron that M1 is almost famous for.
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Old 11-06-2013, 10:24 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Zefy View Post
I just got my first report in. Everything looks good according to them. Curious about the high magnesium levels in my sample. According to the info page it is used as a detergent/additive in the oil? Typical for castrol?

Either way... This is using 10W-30 castrol synthetic. 5,500km on the oil. ~60k km on 2.5RS SOHC heads and ~40k km on 2011 sti shortblock with AVO turbo kit at about 8lbs of boost. Was curious about the oversized oil pump for this motor and was mostly curious about the excess sheer on the oil.



Thoughts?
It wasn't the high mileage version was it? With how it sheared, I would take a look at the M1 0w40.

Then what size of oil pump do you have? What is your redline, bearing clearances?
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