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Old 11-07-2013, 02:23 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by subi400 View Post
It wasn't the high mileage version was it? With how it sheared, I would take a look at the M1 0w40.

Then what size of oil pump do you have? What is your redline, bearing clearances?
nope. Castrol edge synthetic. Has the stock 11mm oil pump from the 2011 sti block. Factory RS redline (6250rpm), and completely factory shortblock so whatever OEM clearances are...

I'm sceptical of going to a higher weight oil as my oil pressure is already very high.
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Old 11-07-2013, 04:58 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Zefy View Post
nope. Castrol edge synthetic. Has the stock 11mm oil pump from the 2011 sti block. Factory RS redline (6250rpm), and completely factory shortblock so whatever OEM clearances are...

I'm sceptical of going to a higher weight oil as my oil pressure is already very high.

which is why using that pump is such a bad idea....but people dont know any better thinking that bigger is always better

foam the oil...too much pressure...dead motor...irrelevant of the oil
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Old 11-07-2013, 08:27 AM   #203
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I just got my first report in. Everything looks good according to them. Curious about the high magnesium levels in my sample. According to the info page it is used as a detergent/additive in the oil? Typical for castrol?

Either way... This is using 10W-30 castrol synthetic. 5,500km on the oil. ~60k km on 2.5RS SOHC heads and ~40k km on 2011 sti shortblock with AVO turbo kit at about 8lbs of boost. Was curious about the oversized oil pump for this motor and was mostly curious about the excess sheer on the oil.

Thoughts?
The shear is completely normal for a Resource Conserving oil. The extra liter actually helps boost the TBN and kinematic viscosity so the oil likely would have been a 20 grade without it (it was very close). What mileage did you add the oil?

At the very least, I would go with German Castrol 0W-30 (thicker, more shear stable) or Belgian Castrol 0W-40 (light 40 grade with more ZDDP) regardless of how a uoa looks. Yes, you'll probably have higher oil pressure with either of these, but you'll have a higher High Temp High Shear and more anti-wear additives.

Maybe listen to Uncle Scotty on the oil pump. Did you recently have work done? I'm guessing the silicon is either that or a K&N. And different oils are formulated differently in regards to anti-wear additives and detergents/dispersants.

Edit: Just realized this is less than 3,500 miles on the oil. Switch to GC or we'll revoke your nasioc membership. IIRC, Canadians can get GC from Wal-Mart. I don't recall if you can get BC 0W-40, but you can get Mobil1 0W-40, Rotella 0W-40, and I believe some HDEO 0W-30's (Petro Canada?). Also do some more investigating on the oil pump.

-Dennis

Last edited by bluesubie; 11-07-2013 at 08:43 AM.
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Old 11-07-2013, 10:18 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by SubLGT View Post
My last 2 runs of M1 0W40 have shown slightly elevated levels of copper, at 18ppm, but not the signature elevation of iron that M1 is almost famous for.
Was that signature elevation ever present for 0w40? I thought that was just the resource conserving 5w30 regular and EP oils, maybe the 10w30 too, but not the HD oils like High mileage, TDT and 0w40.
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Old 11-07-2013, 10:21 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty View Post
which is why using that pump is such a bad idea....but people dont know any better thinking that bigger is always better

foam the oil...too much pressure...dead motor...irrelevant of the oil
Isn't that oil pump there primarily to feed the AVCS mechanisms? Regardless, you're right simply throwing a bigger pump in without scientific reasons to do so is a bad idea.
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Old 11-07-2013, 01:27 PM   #206
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Was that signature elevation ever present for 0w40? I thought that was just the resource conserving 5w30 regular and EP oils, maybe the 10w30 too, but not the HD oils like High mileage, TDT and 0w40.
See my uoa's you linked on the first page. IRONically (I crack myself up), Fe was twice as high on the SN 0W-40 than the SM. Not that it means anything.

-Dennis
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Old 11-07-2013, 01:50 PM   #207
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nope. Castrol edge synthetic. Has the stock 11mm oil pump from the 2011 sti block. Factory RS redline (6250rpm), and completely factory shortblock so whatever OEM clearances are...

I'm sceptical of going to a higher weight oil as my oil pressure is already very high.
Since you are on factory clearances you need to find yourself a 9mm oil pump and ditch that sti 11mm oil pump ASAP.... Too much oil pressure is resulting in that oil being bypassed through the small bypass hole resulting in shearing going on....

just to enlighten you a bit, there are people that post on Nasioc running wrx 10mm oil pumps on engines revving to 9k rpms with none avcs heads. Their clearances are also a little looser though to have a better oil film and better cooling ability.

You do not need anything more than the 9mm oil pump. Your engine doesn't have the oil needs.

If you do some research, the 2.5 rs sohc engines came with either the 7 or 9mm pumps from the factory. Maybe a few with the 10mm pump but the pressure would be a bit higher with the 10mm pump. Since you are staying with the stock redline then you don't need more volume nor pressure.

So, get a 9mm pump and run a thicker Xw30 oil and you will be much better off.
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Old 11-07-2013, 08:09 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty View Post
which is why using that pump is such a bad idea....but people dont know any better thinking that bigger is always better

foam the oil...too much pressure...dead motor...irrelevant of the oil
When I did the swap, I did not realize that the sti shortblocks from 08+ had the 11mm oil pump. From what I had gathered prior to doing the swap, the 11mm was an "upgrade" for the sti so I thought I had a 9mm or 10mm. I knew it had a larger oil pump than the RS but I did not realize it was the 11mm everyone was having problems with. I did not intentionally go out and get an 11mm... And my motor isn't dead.... yet...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post
The shear is completely normal for a Resource Conserving oil. The extra liter actually helps boost the TBN and kinematic viscosity so the oil likely would have been a 20 grade without it (it was very close). What mileage did you add the oil?

At the very least, I would go with German Castrol 0W-30 (thicker, more shear stable) or Belgian Castrol 0W-40 (light 40 grade with more ZDDP) regardless of how a uoa looks. Yes, you'll probably have higher oil pressure with either of these, but you'll have a higher High Temp High Shear and more anti-wear additives.

Maybe listen to Uncle Scotty on the oil pump. Did you recently have work done? I'm guessing the silicon is either that or a K&N. And different oils are formulated differently in regards to anti-wear additives and detergents/dispersants.

Edit: Just realized this is less than 3,500 miles on the oil. Switch to GC or we'll revoke your nasioc membership. IIRC, Canadians can get GC from Wal-Mart. I don't recall if you can get BC 0W-40, but you can get Mobil1 0W-40, Rotella 0W-40, and I believe some HDEO 0W-30's (Petro Canada?). Also do some more investigating on the oil pump.

-Dennis
The additional oil was added in 0.5L incriments at ~3000km and ~4800km.

The motor was put together about 15000km ago and I did have the oil pan off so it could be sealants and things from that. I do have a k&n filter which I will check to make sure it hasn't disintegrated or anything... It was new with the swap however is it already quite dirty from rallyX and other such things.

For my next oil change, I will switch to GC. Canadian tire and walmart both seem to carry it but only in 1liter containers and it's 11 bucks a bottle...

I will keep an eye out and get some before I do my next oil change. It goes on sale for about $7/liter on occasion or if I go to the states anytime soon I will grab some. I don't really believe that my motor is in great danger because of the oil and pump combo I have currently, being that the UOA does not indicate any bearing wear. So swapping out this fresh oil I think would be a waste of time and money... When spring comes around and it's time for another oil change I will do it then and get my oil pump replaced with a 9mm as subi400 suggests. All I will be doing in the winter months is a bit of autoX and DD with a few road trips tossed in. The previous oil change has track days, a whack of dual driver autoX's, rallyX, and a bunch of road tuning done on it. I think it fared pretty well and it was still within spec...

So I will keep my interval low, swap to a 9mm pump in the spring, and I have a mocal 19row with thermostat, and I also plan on getting a koyo radiator as my temps were beginning to climb at the end of a track session. It was a rather cold day so I was fine...

No comments about the magnesium content?
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Old 11-07-2013, 09:14 PM   #209
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Fe was twice as high on the SN 0W-40 than the SM. Not that it means anything.

-Dennis
Why wouldn't double the Fe mean anything?
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Old 11-08-2013, 02:41 AM   #210
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Was that signature elevation ever present for 0w40? I thought that was just the resource conserving 5w30 regular and EP oils, maybe the 10w30 too, but not the HD oils like High mileage, TDT and 0w40.
A google search at BITOG for "M1 0W40 high iron" will get plenty of hits, but my impression is that reports of high iron with 0W40 are in decline.
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Old 11-08-2013, 07:34 AM   #211
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No comments about the magnesium content?
I did. I meant to include that in my comment above about different detergent/dispersant additives. Some manufactures prefer to go with more calcium and less magnesium while others will spilt it more evenly.

-Dennis
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Old 11-08-2013, 07:42 AM   #212
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Why wouldn't double the Fe mean anything?
Search on bitog a bit as Sub suggested. Elevated iron in Mobil1 uoa's did pretty much become the signature for M1 and the question has always been is it really wear or some kind of chemical reaction? When given the chance to explain themselves in a Q&A Mobil1 gave a generic answer that pretty much avoided it.

This is good info about iron in uoa's in general:
Why iron ppm numbers are NOT good wear indicators.

-Dennis

Last edited by bluesubie; 11-08-2013 at 07:48 AM.
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Old 11-08-2013, 10:35 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post
Search on bitog a bit as Sub suggested. Elevated iron in Mobil1 uoa's did pretty much become the signature for M1 and the question has always been is it really wear or some kind of chemical reaction? When given the chance to explain themselves in a Q&A Mobil1 gave a generic answer that pretty much avoided it.

This is good info about iron in uoa's in general:
Why iron ppm numbers are NOT good wear indicators.

-Dennis
Thanks for sharing! BITOG can be a lot to dig through before finding something concrete. You always have concise info.
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:23 AM   #214
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4th oil change. This round was Pennzoil Ultra 5w30 with the OEM Subaru filter. Car is still bone stock. At ~3,500 mi I ended up topping off with 0.6 qts. By the time I changed it at ~4,500 mi it was down another 0.4 qts, burning about a quart through the interval. Wasn't too comfortable with the oil burning. Four autocross events on the oil (~25 runs). I'm still really easy on the car during daily driving - maybe 70% highway and 30% city driving. Switched to a more robust Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 for the current interval. Car didn't burn at all with the Edge OE and very little with the Pennzoil Platinum.

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Old 11-27-2013, 10:42 AM   #215
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The Auto-X may be helping cause the consumption, hard cornering can send a bunch of oil through the PCV system, it might also stabilize if you stuck to PU for several OCIs. Maybe consider an AOS if you're going to do lots of Auto-X. Oil consumption is such a black process, you never can tell which oil will foster consumption and which wont. Dennis' Fozzie drank Redline like Kool-Aid, my car doesn't burn a drop. It makes me nervous to switch, but I think I'm going to join you on the M1 ESP bandwagon.

Looks like a pretty good report. Good wear numbers considering the Auto-X events, good flash point, good KV100, really strong TBN. It'll be interesting to see the ESP UOA. Don't forget the TBN for that one, and maybe commit to three OCIs on it to get some sort of trend.

Thanks for posting!
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Old 12-04-2013, 10:20 PM   #216
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Just had this thread pointed out to me.
I'll just drop a picture of my UOA's for whatever purpose it may achieve.

Car: '09 WRX, stock engine/tune. DD commuter with only occasional hard use. Has been running M1 5w30 for 62,000 miles. First the GF4 version, then it looks like it switched over to the GF5 version sometime in late 2011 or early 2012.


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Old 12-13-2013, 02:22 PM   #217
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Default 5W-30 Subaru Synthetic

Back story. I purchased this 2013 WRX with 8,000 miles this past October 25th, car is stock. While I was quite familiar with the car it was not until coming here that I discovered that, despite what the folks who built the engine say, 5W-30 appears to not be the best oil to use.

So, I had the Subaru synthetic 5W-30 tested for grins.

The PO had the oil changed at 6 months/5700 miles then 6 months later at the 78XX mark. So this sample is from the third batch of oil.



I removed the sample via a hand vacuum pump.(the pump uses long silicon tubes which I am wondering if that impacted the silicon number). Also, while getting the sample I removed 2 quarts and replaced with T6 which explains the first comment from Blackstone (I asked them if okay to mix oils)

Side note: its cold and snowy and I don't have a garage so I am hoping to not change my own oil until spring. Also, when I bought the T6 PepBoys will not change your oil with something other than what the manual says.

So, right now there is roughly 50% Subaru 5W-30 (from above UOA) and 50% new T6 in my car, which hopefully will hold me until spring. I suspect mixing oils is not ideal and will not be the methodology going forward...

No real question. Simply posting for public viewing....
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Old 12-16-2013, 11:16 PM   #218
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Just had this thread pointed out to me.
Car: '09 WRX, stock engine/tune. DD commuter with only occasional hard use. Has been running M1 5w30 for 62,000 miles. First the GL4 version, then it looks like it switched over to the GL5 version sometime in late 2011 or early 2012.
I'm confused. GL-4 and GL-5 are gear oil ratings.

Do you mean ILSAC GF4 and GF5?

Shawn
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Old 12-17-2013, 12:54 AM   #219
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Yes, he meant GF-5. He apparently copy/pasted that post from the other UOA thread, typo and all. LINK
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Old 12-17-2013, 02:49 AM   #220
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Got the letters switched in my head for a day.

My bad.

Fixed the post, sorry about that.
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Old 12-30-2013, 12:37 AM   #221
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Aww, 3.8 TBN just for me? You shouldn't have...

A very good report, as expected. Amsoil Euro is a bit thinner, and it seems slightly less shear stable than RT6, but an excellent choice for a turbo EJ none the less. Are you sticking with it and extending the OCI? No reason not to.

Next time do a KV40 measurement to see how the viscosity index holds up...
Received the results from my most recent oil change - I was also able to get a KV40 measurement.

What do you guys think of using a magnetic drain plug? A co-worker got me one, but I'm not sure I want to use it. I could see it helping if there were small chunks or shards of metal floating around, but are there any downsides to using one? Could it potentially affect the additives in the oil or skew the results of a UOA?

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Old 12-30-2013, 10:25 AM   #222
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Received the results from my most recent oil change - I was also able to get a KV40 measurement.

What do you guys think of using a magnetic drain plug? A co-worker got me one, but I'm not sure I want to use it. I could see it helping if there were small chunks or shards of metal floating around, but are there any downsides to using one? Could it potentially affect the additives in the oil or skew the results of a UOA?
A magnetic drain plug can't hurt, but I'm not sure it does much good, I'd consider it a diagnostic tool, not a safety device. I've got a Filtermag on my car, but the particle counts I did for quite a few UOA show that the filter is much more important than the magnet, I cant imagine a magnetic drain plug doing any better than the much larger Filtermag. It won't affect the UOA results, between my two cars I've done half a dozen UOAs with the Filtermag and more without, no difference can be detected.

The UOA looks excellent. Once again the oil ended up as a thick 30wt with very good wear metals and TBN retention. Flashpoint is a little lower than last time, but nothing to worry about. The viscosity index calculates out at 162, which given the limitations of the measurements is pretty darn close to the virgin VI of 168.

Refresh my memory is this AFL (Mid-SAPS) or EFM (Full-SAPS)? I suspect EFM from the TBN, but the Phosphorous levels look low enough to be AFL.

PS - With both KV40 and TBN you're spending a lot at Blackstone, consider OAI, they're much cheaper with those two add-ons. Especially since you're using Amsoil.
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Old 12-30-2013, 10:38 AM   #223
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^ +1.

I just noticed that the KV on the AFL starts out higher than EFM (14.3 vs 13.6).

-Dennis
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Old 12-30-2013, 10:47 AM   #224
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A magnetic drain plug can't hurt, but I'm not sure it does much good, I'd consider it a diagnostic tool, not a safety device. I've got a Filtermag on my car, but the particle counts I did for quite a few UOA show that the filter is much more important than the magnet, I cant imagine a magnetic drain plug doing any better than the much larger Filtermag. It won't affect the UOA results, between my two cars I've done half a dozen UOAs with the Filtermag and more without, no difference can be detected.

The UOA looks excellent. Once again the oil ended up as a thick 30wt with very good wear metals and TBN retention. Flashpoint is a little lower than last time, but nothing to worry about. The viscosity index calculates out at 162, which given the limitations of the measurements is pretty darn close to the virgin VI of 168.

Refresh my memory is this AFL (Mid-SAPS) or EFM (Full-SAPS)? I suspect EFM from the TBN, but the Phosphorous levels look low enough to be AFL.

PS - With both KV40 and TBN you're spending a lot at Blackstone, consider OAI, they're much cheaper with those two add-ons. Especially since you're using Amsoil.
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Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post
^ +1.

I just noticed that the KV on the AFL starts out higher than EFM (14.3 vs 13.6).

-Dennis
I'm using the 5w40 full-saps. I'm not planning on doing an TBN each time, the numbers have come back very good both times so I might do another after 4-5 more oil changes, and I did the KV40 because you requested it

It seems like this oil is doing very well, and I might extend this next OC to around 6000 but I'm not planning on going too much higher than that.
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Old 12-30-2013, 11:04 AM   #225
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Sounds like a plan.

Sorry for spending your money for you, but it's always nice to have more used oil VI data. Some people get wrapped around the axle over high virgin VI, but never bother to confirm the oil actually stays that way with use.
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