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Old 06-04-2013, 02:49 PM   #26
fastblueufo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revin-it02 View Post
Still confused as to how this car is tuned correctly if it can't read the true psi?
I can't believe your still dicking with mr vi. The map sensor doesn't have a big function as far as fueling goes. This car is actually running between 5 and 6 psi. The map sensor will peg voltage around 5.11 psi and seal level. The car only hit 5.11 psi for about three time stamps so less than a second. The rest of the pull was around 4.9 psi in the upper rpm's. When a map sensor reaches its limit or psi is held over a set voltage threshold for longer than the delay threshold a cel will be set by the ecu. A cel has never set and if the car was running to much over 5 psi a cel would def be set. The problem with logging a map sensor close to its limit is it can be inaccurate by a small amount but greater the farther psi goes over the sensors limit.

Some race gas and a modified pully and the inaccurate graph of 270 I posted would not be any problem to achieve. He could easily run another couple psi on 93 octane without issue. But, at 9-10 psi his actual compression ratio (under boost) would be just over 12.0 to 1. Its hard to run an actual compression ratio over 12.0 to 1 on pump fuel without lowering timing and sacrificing horse power gained through boost, only to loose it or more by having to retard timing to much. At that point the only alternative to running higher boost and running an actual compression ratio over 12.0 to 1 is to raise the octane of the fuel. This car still has some hp left on the table on 93 octane but its a stock block and I'm not one to risk popping my customers engines over an extra 25 whp.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:24 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by fastblueufo View Post

I can't believe your still dicking with mr vi. The map sensor doesn't have a big function as far as fueling goes. This car is actually running between 5 and 6 psi. The map sensor will peg voltage around 5.11 psi and seal level. The car only hit 5.11 psi for about three time stamps so less than a second. The rest of the pull was around 4.9 psi in the upper rpm's. When a map sensor reaches its limit or psi is held over a set voltage threshold for longer than the delay threshold a cel will be set by the ecu. A cel has never set and if the car was running to much over 5 psi a cel would def be set. The problem with logging a map sensor close to its limit is it can be inaccurate by a small amount but greater the farther psi goes over the sensors limit.

Some race gas and a modified pully and the inaccurate graph of 270 I posted would not be any problem to achieve. He could easily run another couple psi on 93 octane without issue. But, at 9-10 psi his actual compression ratio (under boost) would be just over 12.0 to 1. Its hard to run an actual compression ratio over 12.0 to 1 on pump fuel without lowering timing and sacrificing horse power gained through boost, only to loose it or more by having to retard timing to much. At that point the only alternative to running higher boost and running an actual compression ratio over 12.0 to 1 is to raise the octane of the fuel. This car still has some hp left on the table on 93 octane but its a stock block and I'm not one to risk popping my customers engines over an extra 25 whp.
Can you explain how boost has any effect on compression ratio?

Can you also explain how a supercharger that is setup to run at least 9 psi on a certain car, only makes 5psi and holds it through the rpm range and doesn't peak at peak rpm? That sounds more than a smidge fishy to me considering superchargers and rpm have a direct relationship with cfm output.

Last edited by ProfessWRX; 06-05-2013 at 07:30 PM.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:31 PM   #28
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hes talking about the dynamic compression ratio.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:26 PM   #29
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I'm actually talking about effective cr. The dynamic and static are figured under the assumption of atmosheric pressure at sea level. Not taking into account that a supercharger or turbo charger artificially changes the atmosheric pressure the engine uses in affect. The dynamic just figures a truer cr by taking into account were the intake valve closes abdc and compression actually starts. Adding forced induction increases cr were as going to a higher altitude decreases cr. Atmosheric pressure has a direct affect on actual cr of an engine whether its n/a or boosted.

Cr with a turbo can be figured by using
Square root(boost+atmosheric/14.7)*compression ration=cr under boost.

On 93 octane around 12.0 cr is the max you can safely run. Other variables have an affect but that's how I was taught to figure cr under boost. Its a pretty close assumption. Using that formula you can quickly see why a lower cr engine will be able to make more hp. The compression rising under boost has a lot more oxygen than simply raising the compression on an n/a engine. On an n/a you are only raising cr with the amount of air the engine is able to injest at atmosheric pressure. So as cr goes up oxygen content does not. Under boost cr goes up and so does oxygen content.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:37 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by ProfessWRX View Post

Can you also explain how a supercharger that is setup to run at least 9 psi on a certain car, only makes 5psi and holds it through the rpm range and doesn't peak at peak rpm? That sounds more than a smidge fishy to me considering superchargers and rpm have a direct relationship with cfm output.
The boost pressure from a supercharger is directly related to the amount of cfm the sc puts out at a given rpm/intake temp and the amount of cfm the engine ingest at a given rpm.
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:48 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by fastblueufo View Post
The boost pressure from a supercharger is directly related to the amount of cfm the sc puts out at a given rpm/intake temp and the amount of cfm the engine ingest at a given rpm.
As engine rpm rises so too does the SC rpm. Directly proportional. I would like an explanation as to how that boost graph can happen.
Only way that's going to happen is if that supercharger hits an efficiency wall and starts blowing hot air that magically levels out his boost to a flatline and doesn't cause a power dip due to crazy amounts of knock or he's got a wastegate for some reason. Are you saying this is the case?
Do you have a compressor map that shows the wall he's hitting? I have never seen a supercharger's boost flatline like that without a wastegate on the intake tubing. How can you explain what is going on if that is an accurate log of boost?

Cause to me the simple explanation is that his MAP is maxing it's reading and giving incorrect numbers while beyond it's limits. (The simple and most logical explanation.)
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Old 06-07-2013, 07:26 AM   #32
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the supercharger will make more boost the harder it spins. it's a proportionate thing. no it can't hold the same boost pressure throughout the rev range.

<- has one.
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Old 06-07-2013, 07:24 PM   #33
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the supercharger will make more boost the harder it spins. it's a proportionate thing. no it can't hold the same boost pressure throughout the rev range.

<- has one.
I've had two myself. And spent a very long time with them. That data plot looks nearly impossible to me. Which is why I'm asking for his explanation as to how he says it's even possible to be accurate.

I'd guess that car is hitting 8-9psi as is, easy.

Last edited by ProfessWRX; 06-07-2013 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 06-08-2013, 04:34 PM   #34
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Ed,

Awesome job man. If the guy is in South FL tell him to shoot me a call we will throw it on the 424LC2 and stop all the bickering.


/Drunkmann Tuning
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Old 06-08-2013, 08:19 PM   #35
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Ed,

Awesome job man. If the guy is in South FL tell him to shoot me a call we will throw it on the 424LC2 and stop all the bickering.


/Drunkmann Tuning
Hey man, where are you tuning at now is fl? Next time I'm down in fl I'm going to look you up. Ill be posting some results on the map sensor soon. I'm getting the owner to do some test for me so ill know exactly how many psi the thing is and put a rest to all this bickering over a few psi. They seem to not understand that not all superchargers are the same size compressor and not all superchargers flow the same. Not much info on the raptor as far as flow specs and such that I could find. Its not like your all that focused on boost pressure when your tuning a supercharger anyway. Not much you can do in the way of controlling map pressure. You just tune with the amount of psi the setup is able to put out. Especially over an e-tune and no way to swap out pulleys. As soon as I get the data I asked the customer to get, we all will know.
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:56 PM   #36
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Hey man, where are you tuning at now is fl? Next time I'm down in fl I'm going to look you up. Ill be posting some results on the map sensor soon. I'm getting the owner to do some test for me so ill know exactly how many psi the thing is and put a rest to all this bickering over a few psi. They seem to not understand that not all superchargers are the same size compressor and not all superchargers flow the same. Not much info on the raptor as far as flow specs and such that I could find. Its not like your all that focused on boost pressure when your tuning a supercharger anyway. Not much you can do in the way of controlling map pressure. You just tune with the amount of psi the setup is able to put out. Especially over an e-tune and no way to swap out pulleys. As soon as I get the data I asked the customer to get, we all will know.
I've asked for a reason.You can't give me one. I even threw you a bone. This isn't bickering, it's a legitimate question. If you were worth a nickel as a tuner you'd be on my side until proven otherwise.

How does the boost coming from a supercharger flatline like that?? Should be an easy explanation from the cocksure tuner of the vehicle in question.
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Old 06-09-2013, 07:18 AM   #37
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The volute mimics a procharger or older vortex. No where near vortex size of today. Hence ED saying wish compressor was smaller. As for typical being a NASIOC dick mr WRX( i chose not to write ur full name) you take the cake king ****. Ohh and revin-it like I stated there is a liberty putting down 280hp with SC and Cams at 9-10 psi on same charger.

I also have a full FMIC and that debate alone with Supercharging is enough for its own thread. I will get those loggs ED for manifold pressure with air hose.

Also take into account possible belt slippage at upper rpm might be possible. Either way lol She pulls like hell and if you want to see come take a ride and judge yourself. Though you maybe looking for that turbo aggressiveness this just keeps building making u pull foot off pedal. Either way ED I'll take a logg today and also removed Spring from BOV and kept smaller spring due to SC.

Response into 0 load is that much faster so I'll take another fun lil cruise logg as well
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Old 06-09-2013, 02:26 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastblueufo View Post
Hey man, where are you tuning at now is fl? Next time I'm down in fl I'm going to look you up. Ill be posting some results on the map sensor soon. I'm getting the owner to do some test for me so ill know exactly how many psi the thing is and put a rest to all this bickering over a few psi. They seem to not understand that not all superchargers are the same size compressor and not all superchargers flow the same. Not much info on the raptor as far as flow specs and such that I could find. Its not like your all that focused on boost pressure when your tuning a supercharger anyway. Not much you can do in the way of controlling map pressure. You just tune with the amount of psi the setup is able to put out. Especially over an e-tune and no way to swap out pulleys. As soon as I get the data I asked the customer to get, we all will know.


I'm down in the Naples area now, Bonita Springs, Fl.
If you're ever down man stop by and check the shop out. We got a couple lambos, Superformance Gt40, and other cool projects going on!

We are a DMC, Shelby, Auto Italia, and Superformance dealer so we always have cool stuff to check out too.
Hope all is well in good 'ol AL.
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Old 06-09-2013, 06:56 PM   #39
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awww heck yeah gottah go check that place... Here in kissimmee so might be like a 3 hr drive I think. Would come any time they got some shows. ( just to make time other than crowding the shop) Thats sick man. Nice
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Old 06-09-2013, 06:58 PM   #40
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shucks think I'm gona take that logg now I promised been raining crazy.
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Old 06-09-2013, 07:05 PM   #41
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We should be having a Subaru Dyno Day, Meet, and BBQ closer to the end of July. We have a 424LC2 (AWD) Dynojet with linked rollers and eddy current.

We have the VW/Audi group early July.....trying to do a NASIOC/EVOm deal 3 weeks following. Just check the SE forums every once in a while.
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Old 06-10-2013, 07:30 AM   #42
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Aight will do man. On another note to the none believers is that unlike a turbo 10:1 the motor sees no where near the harshness of the FI yet still claims equal power up top if gone turbo route. Personally last I checked thats what wevall want. To make power reliably not spend thousands to brag about one time big power pull to have motor die there after. Guess people got money to waste. I have none of that.

Either way with 28k on motor she should be fun to drive for a while and think CAMs are next after claims of 280hp to the wheels on Raptors Legacy lol most cars aren't putting that to the road unless tuned...
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Old 06-10-2013, 10:12 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by ProfessWRX View Post
I've asked for a reason.You can't give me one. I even threw you a bone. This isn't bickering, it's a legitimate question. If you were worth a nickel as a tuner you'd be on my side until proven otherwise.

How does the boost coming from a supercharger flatline like that?? Should be an easy explanation from the cocksure tuner of the vehicle in question.
If your reading comprehension didn't suck you would see where I already answered your question on why the boost was flatline. Its because of the limit of the map sensor is 5.1 psi. You better hope you don't cross my path at anywhere for your smerky little comments about me. Cause I promise I'm going to be up in your face about it. Now piss off.
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Old 06-11-2013, 12:41 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by fastblueufo View Post

If your reading comprehension didn't suck you would see where I already answered your question on why the boost was flatline. Its because of the limit of the map sensor is 5.1 psi. You better hope you don't cross my path at anywhere for your smerky little comments about me. Cause I promise I'm going to be up in your face about it. Now piss off.
This in no way explains you saying the car was actually running 5-6psi. That boost line is heading straight towards 8-9psi. You said his boost practically flatlines and is barely higher than the map shows. I asked why. You never gave a response and I'm needing help with comprehension?

You're as hard as a 90 year old erection. Internet threats are pathetic, and typical of somebody that has lost direction in a conversation so they resort to childish banter. It's a scary thought having a "tuner" touch your car that can't answer a simple question.

So again, why does the boost flatline?

This paragraph is frightening:
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastblueufo View Post
This car is actually running between 5 and 6 psi. The map sensor will peg voltage around 5.11 psi and seal level. The car only hit 5.11 psi for about three time stamps so less than a second. The rest of the pull was around 4.9 psi in the upper rpm's. When a map sensor reaches its limit or psi is held over a set voltage threshold for longer than the delay threshold a cel will be set by the ecu. A cel has never set and if the car was running to much over 5 psi a cel would def be set. The problem with logging a map sensor close to its limit is it can be inaccurate by a small amount but greater the farther psi goes over the sensors limit.

Last edited by ProfessWRX; 06-11-2013 at 12:47 AM.
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Old 06-11-2013, 06:47 AM   #45
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@professwrx you obviously havnt done much in the way of logging many map sensors near there limit, or much knowledge in how a stock ecu handles map voltage. If you will read and listen, the map sensor when psi gets near its max will cause the logged voltage to waver around near its limits. It causes the map reading to be inaccurate by a couple psi. If you go and add enough pressure the logged value will peg at 5.1 and if pressure is held long enough a cel will be set. The logged pressure wavered around 4.9 to 5.04 is why I stated pressure wasn't to much over 5.1. I highly doubt its at 9 like your stating.

Now go on with yourself. This forum makes people not want to post stuff because of jokers like yourself. And no I don't make internet threats. I do promise if we cross paths your going to have me in your face. I'm all for calling somebody out on stuff but I usually know what the **** I'm talking about before I do it. You on the other hand do not. But calling names and personally attacking someone is something I won't put up with. I don't give a **** what you say on here but don't personally attack me or call names.

When mr vi adds a map sensor ill be the one to personally pm you a pic of the boost plot and tell you congrats you were right or ha I was right. But leave the sensless name calling out of the thread.

Ed
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Old 06-11-2013, 03:32 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by VIsubi View Post
The volute mimics a procharger or older vortex. No where near vortex size of today. Hence ED saying wish compressor was smaller. As for typical being a NASIOC dick mr WRX( i chose not to write ur full name) you take the cake king ****. Ohh and revin-it like I stated there is a liberty putting down 280hp with SC and Cams at 9-10 psi on same charger.

I also have a full FMIC and that debate alone with Supercharging is enough for its own thread. I will get those loggs ED for manifold pressure with air hose.

Also take into account possible belt slippage at upper rpm might be possible. Either way lol She pulls like hell and if you want to see come take a ride and judge yourself. Though you maybe looking for that turbo aggressiveness this just keeps building making u pull foot off pedal. Either way ED I'll take a logg today and also removed Spring from BOV and kept smaller spring due to SC.

Response into 0 load is that much faster so I'll take another fun lil cruise logg as well
Why would he want a smaller compressor? On a blower, the smaller the blower the longer it takes to build boost. If you want to good low end with a centrifugal SC you pick the pulley and compressor size to get you the low end you want and you put a restrictor in the compressor outlet to limit flow on the top end (if you dont want the extra top end). Or you realize that centrifugals are kind of silly switch to a roots/twin screw or turbo.
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Old 06-11-2013, 06:53 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by fastblueufo View Post
@professwrx you obviously havnt done much in the way of logging many map sensors near there limit, or much knowledge in how a stock ecu handles map voltage. If you will read and listen, the map sensor when psi gets near its max will cause the logged voltage to waver around near its limits. It causes the map reading to be inaccurate by a couple psi. If you go and add enough pressure the logged value will peg at 5.1 and if pressure is held long enough a cel will be set. The logged pressure wavered around 4.9 to 5.04 is why I stated pressure wasn't to much over 5.1. I highly doubt its at 9 like your stating.

Now go on with yourself. This forum makes people not want to post stuff because of jokers like yourself. And no I don't make internet threats. I do promise if we cross paths your going to have me in your face. I'm all for calling somebody out on stuff but I usually know what the **** I'm talking about before I do it. You on the other hand do not. But calling names and personally attacking someone is something I won't put up with. I don't give a **** what you say on here but don't personally attack me or call names.

When mr vi adds a map sensor ill be the one to personally pm you a pic of the boost plot and tell you congrats you were right or ha I was right. But leave the sensless name calling out of the thread.

Ed
All I've asked for is a reason WHY the boost is so low? I'm not talking about logged boost. I'm talking about you saying his boost must peak at 6psi. Why is the car you're tuning unable to make what Iwould call proper boost levels based off the information provided? It's an incredibly simple question.

By the way I already posted that info on the map sensor. It isn't news to me. Check our my very first reply in the thread. It even supersedes your knowledge. !

And I don't remember calling you any names. I called you arrogant and a "tuner." And like an NA MAP sensor, I've got you pegged.

Just looking for an answer is all.

Last edited by ProfessWRX; 06-11-2013 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:02 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by ProfessWRX View Post
I've had two myself. And spent a very long time with them. That data plot looks nearly impossible to me. Which is why I'm asking for his explanation as to how he says it's even possible to be accurate.

I'd guess that car is hitting 8-9psi as is, easy.
it is. it's hitting 9. the kits come with two different size pulleys, one for ~6.5psi and one for ~9psi. he's running the 9.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastblueufo View Post
If your reading comprehension didn't suck you would see where I already answered your question on why the boost was flatline. Its because of the limit of the map sensor is 5.1 psi. You better hope you don't cross my path at anywhere for your smerky little comments about me. Cause I promise I'm going to be up in your face about it. Now piss off.
calm down. he's asking a question. that's all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfessWRX View Post
This in no way explains you saying the car was actually running 5-6psi. That boost line is heading straight towards 8-9psi. You said his boost practically flatlines and is barely higher than the map shows. I asked why. You never gave a response and I'm needing help with comprehension?

You're as hard as a 90 year old erection. Internet threats are pathetic, and typical of somebody that has lost direction in a conversation so they resort to childish banter. It's a scary thought having a "tuner" touch your car that can't answer a simple question.

So again, why does the boost flatline?

This paragraph is frightening:
he's the same as this on the RS25 forum mate. it's a lost cause trust me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastblueufo View Post
@professwrx you obviously havnt done much in the way of logging many map sensors near there limit, or much knowledge in how a stock ecu handles map voltage. If you will read and listen, the map sensor when psi gets near its max will cause the logged voltage to waver around near its limits. It causes the map reading to be inaccurate by a couple psi. If you go and add enough pressure the logged value will peg at 5.1 and if pressure is held long enough a cel will be set. The logged pressure wavered around 4.9 to 5.04 is why I stated pressure wasn't to much over 5.1. I highly doubt its at 9 like your stating.

Now go on with yourself. This forum makes people not want to post stuff because of jokers like yourself. And no I don't make internet threats. I do promise if we cross paths your going to have me in your face. I'm all for calling somebody out on stuff but I usually know what the **** I'm talking about before I do it. You on the other hand do not. But calling names and personally attacking someone is something I won't put up with. I don't give a **** what you say on here but don't personally attack me or call names.

When mr vi adds a map sensor ill be the one to personally pm you a pic of the boost plot and tell you congrats you were right or ha I was right. But leave the sensless name calling out of the thread.

Ed
the other guy is the one flying off the handle..

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfessWRX View Post
All I've asked for is a reason WHY the boost is so low? I'm not talking about logged boost. I'm talking about you saying his boost must peak at 6psi. Why is the car you're tuning unable to make what Iwould call proper boost levels based off the information provided? It's an incredibly simple question.

By the way I already posted that info on the map sensor. It isn't news to me. Check our my very first reply in the thread. It even supersedes your knowledge. !

And I don't remember calling you any names. I called you arrogant and a "tuner." And like an NA MAP sensor, I've got you pegged.

Just looking for an answer is all.
the OP is running a 9psi pulley. that's what the boost pressure actually is. his map sensor can only read up to 5psi or whatever though, so the indicated pressure gets to 5psi and then just tops out/flatlines, even though the actual boost keeps increasing.

VIsubi you really need to calm the hell down. he's asking you questions about your car, not accusing you the person of being inadequate. though for you those two things seem to be intrinsically linked. a better car does not make a better person. try to find something else to attach your self-worth to. i suggest the content of ones character
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:06 PM   #49
XSV Klutch
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Old 06-18-2013, 03:36 PM   #50
VIsubi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vicious_fishes View Post
it is. it's hitting 9. the kits come with two different size pulleys, one for ~6.5psi and one for ~9psi. he's running the 9.



calm down. he's asking a question. that's all.



he's the same as this on the RS25 forum mate. it's a lost cause trust me.



the other guy is the one flying off the handle..



the OP is running a 9psi pulley. that's what the boost pressure actually is. his map sensor can only read up to 5psi or whatever though, so the indicated pressure gets to 5psi and then just tops out/flatlines, even though the actual boost keeps increasing.

VIsubi you really need to calm the hell down. he's asking you questions about your car, not accusing you the person of being inadequate. though for you those two things seem to be intrinsically linked. a better car does not make a better person. try to find something else to attach your self-worth to. i suggest the content of ones character

Bro I'm fine and I know when a question is asking and when its straight hate and bad talk..again this is why NASIOC is jokes like I state in my sigs People ride your ass for not using the search function when you bring an old thread back they still B@tch...very true statment. VF I really don't know why your taking his side on this especially when its tuner related which neither of us have a full understanding of this. My point is you ask a question get an answer..you ask another question it also gets answered. You ask more and throw in a hate comment..what do you really think is going to happen..sit down and have tea..come on.

As for flaming me on RS25 lol first off I'm the first person to offer assitance and the first to give respect...even when its not due. Calling me out yest not posting your own build or question and answers of how things run versus this and that...makes you very Bias. Again I love my set up and it does the job and more than I expected it....The only difference here is One Tuner shows his work all over not just on NASIOC the other..I know not much about. So until then, I uphold that which is proven not by words... Simple

Also if this was the issue my boost gauge ,AEM digital, would easily read above the 5-6 pressure reading I'm getting it doesn't. I've seen it spike to 6 maybe in 2nd gear pull of. I'm also FMIC turbo's and Superchargers react way differently to piping size and length. Though you where probably Non-intercooled Or Water to Air ( 45 degree , 13-14 inch straight pipe, then a 90 degree to TB) compared to my 2.) 180's , a 45, and a 90 bend and at least 4-5 feet of straight piping including intercooler ( 27x11x3) so my loss is probably there even in a sealed atmosphere.

Again its tuned to the cons that the system has to live with and I'm very happy. Once motor needs the rebuild its going straight to FastBlueUFO why....cause he shares his knowledge unbias and not like some a$$holes here..pretty down to earth guy if you ask me with crap loads of knowledge way before Subaru's touched US soil lol. So be a Culo all you want point is the numbers are there my a$$ dyno is there believe what you want. I know I'm not making 400hp but I'm probably already ahead with no lag lol

Depending on track or autocross I'd still probably have better usable power than you.....
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