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Old 05-21-2013, 06:27 PM   #1
radd269
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Default Built VS Quick Power

All,

I just purchased a 2010 STI last month at 25k miles, I'm looking to track the car, and I have some questions about the reliability of a built motor, VS adding power to stock internals.

Don't get me wrong. I really enjoy the car currently; love the way it drives and handles. It has quite a bit of power stock, but feels very inconsistent at times (sortof like turbolag, but not really), and this really worries me as I am looking to mod the car. My end goal is 350whp with supporting suspension mods.

I went and spoke to my tuner, and he says the inconsistency I'm feeling is a result of the crappy stock tune. He also says the stock pistons that aren't great either. This was disconcerting for me. I used to own a 06' WRX and it sounds like the STI motor isn't that much better or even different.

He then went and attempted to sell me a built shortblock with forged pistons and rods. The idea makes sense to me, because adding power to a built motor, sounds like it would be a hell of a lot more reliable.

Also I should point out I can afford a built motor if you guys think its the way I should go (recently received a large bonus )

My questions are:

1. Is there anyway to tell how long the stock motor with stock internals would last on 350WHP? Is that too much power for a stock engine? (from the way the tuner spoke, he sounded like the stock tune ALONE was bad for the engine)

2. How long will a built motor last? Even though they can handle a lot more abuse, people have told me that sometimes the stock internals last longer than forged.

3. Lastly, If I were to have reliable 350whp, what is required and how much? I am considering everything.

any input here is great.

thanks guys
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Old 05-21-2013, 06:45 PM   #2
Chicago AJ
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More power = Less reliability.

Do a stage 2 build (intake, accessport/tune and turboback exhaust) and the suspension work you want. That should put you in the whp range you're looking for. Then when if/when it blows up get the built motor.

Or sell your stock motor and get the built motor.

There's no real way to know for sure how long anything will last, especially if it's tracked. It's completely up to you as to which route you want to go.
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Old 05-21-2013, 06:57 PM   #3
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1. No way to tell. Every engine is different and your best bet is to flip a coin to decide. A good way to go about it is mod the car for what you want, but save money for the motor build for when it pops.

2. This is where you need to do research. How much of a "built" motor are we talking? Drop in pistons only? (weakest part of motor) Full crank, rods, pistons, valves etc? No one can tell how long ANY motor is going to last as there are far too many variables.

3. Can't answer again. Each build is different.

Find a tuner, speak with them in great detail about what you want, what your budget is, and how much down time you can put up with.
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Old 05-21-2013, 07:02 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago AJ View Post
Do a stage 2 build (intake, accessport/tune and turboback exhaust) and the suspension work you want. That should put you in the whp range you're looking for. Then when if/when it blows up get the built motor.
What power level does that generally put me at?
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Old 05-21-2013, 07:04 PM   #5
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Perhaps instead of saying "I want 350whp", you should mod the car until it feels fast enough for you rather than aiming for x whp.
If I was you I would give stage 2 a try and see where you want to go from there. You may find that going stage 2 is good enough for you.
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Old 05-21-2013, 07:04 PM   #6
Chicago AJ
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Every car/dyno is different. But you'll be close to your 350whp goal.
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Old 05-21-2013, 07:05 PM   #7
radd269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HinshawWRX View Post
1. No way to tell. Every engine is different and your best bet is to flip a coin to decide. A good way to go about it is mod the car for what you want, but save money for the motor build for when it pops.

2. This is where you need to do research. How much of a "built" motor are we talking? Drop in pistons only? (weakest part of motor) Full crank, rods, pistons, valves etc? No one can tell how long ANY motor is going to last as there are far too many variables.
Right on. that makes sense.

In regards to your second answer the built motor I was looking at has
CP Forged Pistons, pins, and rings
ACL Race Series Bearings
STI Forged Connecting Rods
STI Forged Crankshart
Balanced and Polished crank, rods, and pistons
CNC Precision Bore and Hone with torque plates
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Old 05-21-2013, 07:06 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by radd269 View Post
What power level does that generally put me at?
Roughly 300-330whp. Do some looking around the proven power bragging section.
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Old 05-21-2013, 07:08 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by alecb View Post
Roughly 300-330whp. Do some looking around the proven power bragging section.
Will do, thanks
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Old 05-21-2013, 07:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alecb View Post
Perhaps instead of saying "I want 350whp", you should mod the car until it feels fast enough for you rather than aiming for x whp.
If I was you I would give stage 2 a try and see where you want to go from there. You may find that going stage 2 is good enough for you.
Is this what you have done on your STI? Night and day difference?
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Old 05-21-2013, 07:14 PM   #11
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If you do it all at once it's like gaining an extra 65-80whp. Just a stage 1 map would be a night and day difference.
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Old 05-21-2013, 07:17 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radd269 View Post
Is this what you have done on your STI? Night and day difference?
I bought it stage 2 so unfortunately I can't elaborate much more.

From what I understand its a pretty significant difference. Here's a video on YouTube comparing them. (This is not my video)

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Old 05-21-2013, 07:20 PM   #13
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There's the different power levels on a dyno.
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:41 PM   #14
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Cobb's website has a dyno database, and we have PROVEN POWER BRAGGING forum. Read/search through those to get an idea. Start small, do a Stage 2 setup (tune and downpipe) and see if you like it/want more.
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Old 05-21-2013, 11:11 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago AJ View Post
Every car/dyno is different. But you'll be close to your 350whp goal.
You will not see 350whp on a simple stage 2 setup. IIRC Cobb ots stage 2 puts you right at or just below the 300 range and a pro tune would squeeze a few more. Every dyno is different but to hit close to 350whp on stage 2 you would probably need to run e85 and all of the supporting mods.

OP I agree with hinshaw and others. Start with stage 2 then go from there. If it's going to be a track car and not a DD then look into fuel options (like e85)
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Old 05-21-2013, 11:49 PM   #16
Chicago AJ
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That's funny because I have a friend who has a 2012 STi Hatch with a Cobb intake, turbo back exhaust comprised from a few different manufacturers and a tune from a nearby AMS shop and he dynoed 327 which I'd say is pretty close to 350.
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Old 05-22-2013, 12:42 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago AJ View Post
More power = Less reliability.

Do a stage 2 build (intake, accessport/tune and turboback exhaust) and the suspension work you want. That should put you in the whp range you're looking for. Then when if/when it blows up get the built motor.

Or sell your stock motor and get the built motor.

There's no real way to know for sure how long anything will last, especially if it's tracked. It's completely up to you as to which route you want to go.
I'm a noob but how about Stage 2 as you mentioned and E85 conversion with tune. E85 alone seems to make a big difference.
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Old 05-22-2013, 01:09 AM   #18
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wouldn't a 2010 sti have forged internals?
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Old 05-22-2013, 01:34 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blubug_768 View Post
wouldn't a 2010 sti have forged internals?
No. Pistons are not forged.
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Old 05-22-2013, 01:35 AM   #20
Chicago AJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray521 View Post
I'm a noob but how about Stage 2 as you mentioned and E85 conversion with tune. E85 alone seems to make a big difference.
You need to change a few things to run E85, but it's ~105 octane (most race gas is 110). So yea, pretty substantial power gain if you switch to E85.

EDIT: ^^^^ Looks like apetron would probably have some info on E85.
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Old 05-22-2013, 08:27 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago AJ View Post
That's funny because I have a friend who has a 2012 STi Hatch with a Cobb intake, turbo back exhaust comprised from a few different manufacturers and a tune from a nearby AMS shop and he dynoed 327 which I'd say is pretty close to 350.
All dynos read differently - some higher than others. Your friends numbers seem rather high for an intake and turboback, but that could be due to how the dyno is calibrated or how aggressive the tune is.

OP, a more realistic estimate is around 300. However, with that being said...dont focus on the number. If it feels fast enough to you, then thats all that matters
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Old 05-22-2013, 08:35 AM   #22
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Someone said it above, or was on the same track.. but...

Why don't you start with the typical turboback exhaust and tune. That'll bump you up 25% in power, putting you around 300WHP. Drive it, enjoy it. If you want more, you should then think about a turbo upgrade with supporting mods, or the built route.

My point it, a turboback exhaust will be needed down the line anyways.. start there. It might even meet your needs.
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Old 05-22-2013, 09:39 AM   #23
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Listen to Hinshaw and cmiovino, go stage 2 and see where to go from there.

You say you want to track the car, do you mean 1/4 mile track, autoX, rally, dirt oval, ring of death, etc? You have a great all around turbo for a lot of different types of driving, but if you have a specific type of driving you are building for that might change some answers.

If you are going to be competing you should also check your sanctioning body to find what changes your class and the types of cars you would go up against. You could end up in a class with crazy high HP cars and getting hammered every time you hit the track, not fun. Build with a purpose in mind, maybe stock w/ Stage 1 flash and suspension mods and you would be happy as a clam.
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Old 05-22-2013, 12:15 PM   #24
radd269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmiovino View Post
Someone said it above, or was on the same track.. but...

Why don't you start with the typical turboback exhaust and tune. That'll bump you up 25% in power, putting you around 300WHP. Drive it, enjoy it. If you want more, you should then think about a turbo upgrade with supporting mods, or the built route.

My point it, a turboback exhaust will be needed down the line anyways.. start there. It might even meet your needs.
That sounds like a good starting point. Done lol! Literally just purchased cobbs starter pack seconds ago.

http://www.cobbtuning.com/Subaru-WRX...> p/615x02.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DZXN View Post
Listen to Hinshaw and cmiovino, go stage 2 and see where to go from there.

You say you want to track the car, do you mean 1/4 mile track, autoX, rally, dirt oval, ring of death, etc? You have a great all around turbo for a lot of different types of driving, but if you have a specific type of driving you are building for that might change some answers.

If you are going to be competing you should also check your sanctioning body to find what changes your class and the types of cars you would go up against. You could end up in a class with crazy high HP cars and getting hammered every time you hit the track, not fun. Build with a purpose in mind, maybe stock w/ Stage 1 flash and suspension mods and you would be happy as a clam.
Yes, 1/4 Mile, and track. (I have no Idea what ring of death is lol ) I live about an hour away from Mazda Speedway (Laguna Seca) so I intend to take my car there as well, after I join a club.

In regards to suspension, what is a good combination that will improve the stock setup but still mild enough to drive potentially daily?

Maybe suspension is not needed? Please advise. Is stock suspension good enough for a track like Mazda Speedway?? The salesmen at Subaru claim it's a race car out of the gate.
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Old 05-22-2013, 12:42 PM   #25
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I would imagine brakes and tires should be up on the list for track days.

You might need to swap out brake pads at the track (or find a compromise street/track pad to get started) and make sure you have good fluid. Pads and rotors will wear quickly.

Tires will also become a wear item pretty fast, so if you track frequently, a spare set of wheels will be useful so you can maintain some decent daily driving tires.

Search the Motorsports forum for info about a good track day options. Remember that a lot of extra power means a lot of extra slowing down for each corner, so make sure the car can do that lap after lap.
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