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Old 06-07-2013, 04:30 PM   #1
skep18
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Default Tire Advice (Autocross ONLY, Driven to/from Track)

So, I've got a dedicated track vehicle for which I need some tires, and therefore some advice from experienced members here.

Historically, I've driven my DD at AutoX. I have an extra set of wheels I've used, and typically put them on Friday, run them at AutoX Saturday and Sunday, and take them off Sunday night. On these wheels, I've been running BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW 2's. I've been happy with their performance and longevity(1.5 - 2 seasons), everything considered, and am thinking of getting them for this car. But I wanted to see if anyone else know of something better.

I am looking for some awesome performance given ~$160/tire or so while not having tires that wear so fast that I'll need an extra set just to get me to/from the track which is 30 minutes away.

If I'm leaving out information needed, please feel free to ask. Thanks in advance for your kind advice.

EDIT: I will be using the STI BBS wheels.
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Last edited by skep18; 06-07-2013 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 06-07-2013, 05:11 PM   #2
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Well you left out the tire and wheel size, which is a pretty important factor to price.

There are three popular "top tier" autox tires right now that I'm aware of:
Dunlop ZII -- good cold grip, but will overheat if pushed HARD. This is a problem on some autox courses and surfaces, but not a problem at others, depends on the course and driver and possibly some on the weather. It's a good DD tire with decent traction through standing water. questionable for an HDPE where the longer sessions will usually have these tires over their comfortable temp and longevity and performance will start falling off quickly.

BFG Rival -- better communication of the limit than the ZII, handles heat better than the ZII, but has abysmal standing water performance. This makes it a poor choice for something you'd daily drive, but a good tire for a dedicated set of autox / HDPE wheels. It's a new tire so longevity is not too well known, but it should hold up similar to the KDWs.

Hankook RS3 -- not so good cold, picks up grip when warm and handles heat better than ZII. Decent with standing water. autox performance may be slightly hurt by needing some warm up, but this works well at the higher temps seen at longer sessions seen in HDPEs.

Anyone doing anything less than shooting for nationals should consider these equal in performance. Choose based on the other factors. ZII is more flexible for rain and colder temps and is the de-facto standard for an autocross tire that will be daily driven, good for those with moderate skill since they work well cold and are good enough in the wet to not be scary to daily. Rival is a good choice for a dedicated track set of wheels, it's main weakness is wet performance, so this is probably your best choice. RS3 might be a little cheaper, depending on size so may be in the running if you run HDPE sessions on the wheels or you see a lot of wet autocross days.

Last edited by Concillian; 06-07-2013 at 05:26 PM.
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Old 06-07-2013, 05:44 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
Well you left out the tire and wheel size, which is a pretty important factor to price.

There are three popular "top tier" autox tires right now that I'm aware of:

Dunlop ZII -- good cold grip, but will overheat if pushed HARD. This is a problem on some autox courses and surfaces, but not a problem at others, depends on the course and driver and possibly some on the weather. It's a good DD tire with decent traction through standing water. questionable for an HDPE where the longer sessions will usually have these tires over their comfortable temp and longevity and performance will start falling off quickly.

BFG Rival -- better communication of the limit than the ZII, handles heat better than the ZII, but has abysmal standing water performance. This makes it a poor choice for something you'd daily drive, but a good tire for a dedicated set of autox / HDPE wheels. It's a new tire so longevity is not too well known, but it should hold up similar to the KDWs.

Hankook RS3 -- not so good cold, picks up grip when warm and handles heat better than ZII. Decent with standing water. autox performance may be slightly hurt by needing some warm up, but this works well at the higher temps seen at longer sessions seen in HDPEs.

Anyone doing anything less than shooting for nationals should consider these equal in performance. Choose based on the other factors. ZII is more flexible for rain and colder temps and is the de-facto standard for an autocross tire that will be daily driven, good for those with moderate skill since they work well cold and are good enough in the wet to not be scary to daily. Rival is a good choice for a dedicated track set of wheels, it's main weakness is wet performance, so this is probably your best choice. RS3 might be a little cheaper, depending on size so may be in the running if you run HDPE sessions on the wheels or you see a lot of wet autocross days.
Wow. Great response. Thanks!

I didn't even notice the BFG Rivals before when looking on TireRack. Seems like a nice tire. Asymmetrical, so I might not be able to have them remounted to use the outside for longer use. However, how do you think these would compare to the KDW's I'm used to?

Thanks again! Leaning towards the Rivals.
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Old 06-07-2013, 05:51 PM   #4
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Looks like the BFG KDW's have a treadwear rating of 300 while the Rivals have a rating of 200. So I suppose that means they'll wear out a bit faster. But maybe worth it for the performance upgrade?

The hope is evetually these wheels will be the wheels that take me to/from the track and I can get another set of rims/tires to change into. So longevity matters to me some...
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:00 PM   #5
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Found a great link describing the Rivals. Helpful. Probably going to choose these, however anymore advice out there is definitely appreciated.

Quote:
Let me put it this way: BFGoodrich's pure competition tire, the R1 and their street tire, the G-Force Comp-2, loved each other very much. When the stork finally arrived, they named it Rival, and found that they had a child who was greater than the sum of its parents. And what a cute kid it is...

The G-Force Rival is built to fill a highly specific niche. While the R1 is a very well-regarded competition tire and the Comp-2 sits atop Tire Rack's customer surveys for UHP street tires, the Rival aims to be the best of both worlds. It's made to be a superior track tire that can still be driven to and from the track. This track/street hybrid goes along nicely with BFG's own battlecry, “If it's paved, we own it.”
Review: BFGoodrich G-Force Rival
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:25 PM   #6
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A few things to note:

On the rivals, the tread depth is 7.2/32". It's been said that the Rival is somewhat resistant to wear, but at that low tread depth it may not make a difference. I'm not aware how many runs people are getting out of a set.

Of the 3, the RS3 has the deepest tread depth at 8.8/32". (Z2 is 8/32")

If your region is typically very hot/dry (100+ degrees) in the summer months, I would choose the RS3 as it will handle the heat better.

If your region gets a LOT of rain, do the Z2.

This is assuming 225/45/17 for all. You could probably get away with 245/40 on the Rival and Z2, but not on the RS3 due to its softer sidewall.

Last edited by T-37; 06-07-2013 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:52 PM   #7
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I wouldn't put too much stock in treadwear ratings meaning much when the primary usage is track / autocross. They barely mean much for street driving.

I don't really have anything more on that, the Rival is too new to really have any strong impressions on how long they'll last.
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Old 06-08-2013, 05:42 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
I wouldn't put too much stock in treadwear ratings meaning much when the primary usage is track / autocross. They barely mean much for street driving.

I don't really have anything more on that, the Rival is too new to really have any strong impressions on how long they'll last.

There is a broad correlation between tread wear rating and coefficient of friction. Anything with a rating of ~ 100 - 180 will likely be very good tire in the dry and far superior to anything with a rating of 300.

Broadly speaking

semi slick rating ~ 50
high performance street/crossover ~ 100 to 180
high performance all round ~ 200 to 260
long life daily ~ 300

If you want a top level street/ crossover tire try the newly released ADVAN AD08 R
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Old 06-08-2013, 11:21 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandR View Post

There is a broad correlation between tread wear rating and coefficient of friction. Anything with a rating of ~ 100 - 180 will likely be very good tire in the dry and far superior to anything with a rating of 300.

Broadly speaking

semi slick rating ~ 50
high performance street/crossover ~ 100 to 180
high performance all round ~ 200 to 260
long life daily ~ 300

If you want a top level street/ crossover tire try the newly released ADVAN AD08 R
Except we won't get the that Advan for a while if ever
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Old 06-08-2013, 12:47 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandR View Post

There is a broad correlation between tread wear rating and coefficient of friction. Anything with a rating of ~ 100 - 180 will likely be very good tire in the dry and far superior to anything with a rating of 300.

Broadly speaking

semi slick rating ~ 50
high performance street/crossover ~ 100 to 180
high performance all round ~ 200 to 260
long life daily ~ 300

If you want a top level street/ crossover tire try the newly released ADVAN AD08 R
Except that the SCCA street tire minimim TW has been bumped from 140 to 200. If you want a "fast" autocross street tire, it should have 200 on the sidewall.

Last edited by T-37; 06-08-2013 at 01:22 PM.
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Old 06-08-2013, 01:41 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skep18 View Post
Asymmetrical, so I might not be able to have them remounted to use the outside for longer use.
There's a good article on tirerack about asymmetric treads and traction. Read the whole thing, but basically it boiled down to "tread direction has no effect at all on traction in the dry. And not very much in the wet."

So remounting them shouldn't be an issue at all.
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Old 06-09-2013, 07:02 PM   #12
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anybody who even LOOKS at treadwear ratings is a total and complete fool

especially at this level of tire

these numbers are pixie dust.....fairies in the forest....mermaids

fiction at very best....more like fantasy
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Old 06-09-2013, 11:54 PM   #13
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oh yeah

this is in the wrong forum...we have an entire forum dedicated to....guess what???

autox
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Old 06-10-2013, 12:05 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skep18 View Post
So, I've got a dedicated track vehicle for which I need some tires, and therefore some advice from experienced members here.
...
I am looking for some awesome performance given ~$160/tire or so while not having tires that wear so fast that I'll need an extra set just to get me to/from the track which is 30 minutes away.
"Dedicated track vehicle" does not typically mean a vehicle that you drive on the street to get to/from events.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skep18 View Post
EDIT: I will be using the STI BBS wheels.
What STI BBS wheels? And what size tires? Makes it hard to provide recommendations to meet your budget if we can't figure out what size you're looking for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skep18 View Post
I didn't even notice the BFG Rivals before when looking on TireRack. Seems like a nice tire. However, how do you think these would compare to the KDW's I'm used to?
The KDW2 isn't even a particularly noteworthy Ultra High Performance summer tire - they're a dated design with decent performance and a neato tread pattern. The Rival is BFG's brand new extreme performance tire, specifically designed to do well in the very competitive street tire auto-x classing. The Rival will run circles around the KDW2s.
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Old 06-10-2013, 03:54 PM   #15
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kudo's guys there are lots of good posts in here ...

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Right now when talking about the top tier of performance street tires is all about 4 tires

1.) BF Goodrich G-Force Rival

2.) Bridgestone Potenza RE11A

3.) Dunlop Direzza Z2

4.) Yokohama ADVAN Neova AD08R

I have driven on all of them, both on the street and on the track, here's my take.

All, were very good and for 3 out of 4 noticeable upgrades from their predecessors. They certainly have blurred the line between "race tires you can drive on the street" and "street tires you can drive on the track".

As far as road manners go I liked the low road noise and comfortable ride of the Bridgestone Potenza RE11A with the Yokohama being a very close second. The Rival is very "darty" on the road and follows road irregularities. The Dunlop is, by far, the noisiest of the four.

The track is is where these tires show their true metal. With all producing over a 1g average in the dry it made for some fun driving. In the end the two fastest tires for me were the Dunlop Direzza Z2 and the BF Goodrich G-Force Rival. I was fastest on the BFG by a slight margin while some of my associates were faster on the Z2's.

While, the Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Specs and Hankook Ventus R-S3 were battling it out of supremacy last season this new crop tires have made them also rans. The Star Spec has been discontinued in favor of the superior performance of the Z2. The R-S3 is definitely showing its' age with comparatively sluggish steering response as well as its lack of composure and stability under heavy load.


NOTE: You will not find the Yokoham ADVAN Neova AD08R is not on our website at this time. It is so new it hasn't even made it to the North America yet but, it will start arriving in the next few weeks.


We have just completed our testing of these new entries into the Extreme Performance tire world and will be publishing our results very soon so, keep an eye on our website for the full test report.

Last edited by Luke@tirerack; 11-27-2013 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 06-14-2013, 03:36 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke@tirerack View Post
kudo's guys there are lots of good posts in here ...

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Right now when talking about the top tier of performance street tires is all about 4 tires

1.) BF Goodrich G-Force Rival

2.) Bridgestone Potenza RE11A

3.) Dunlop Direzza Z2

4.) Yokohama ADVAN Neova AD08R

I have driven on all of them, both on the street and on the track, here's my take.

All, were very good and for 3 out of 4 noticeable upgrades from their predecessors. They certainly have blurred the line between "race tires you can drive on the street" and "street tires you can drive on the track".

As far as road manners go I liked the low road noise and comfortable ride of the Bridgestone Potenza RE11A with the Yokohama being a very close second. The Rival is very "darty" on the road and follows road irregularities. The Dunlop is, by far, the noisiest of the four.

The track is is where these tires show their true metal. With all producing over a 1g average in the dry it made for some fun driving. In the end the two fastest tires for me were the Dunlop Direzza Z2 and the BF Goodrich G-Force Rival. I was fastest on the BFG by a slight margin while some of my associates were faster on the Z2's.

While, the Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Specs and Hankook Ventus R-S3 were battling it out of supremacy last season this new crop tires have made them also rans. The Star Spec has been discontinued in favor of the superior performance of the Z2. The R-S3 is definitely showing its' age with comparatively sluggish steering response as well as its lack of composure and stability under heavy load.


NOTE: You will not find the Yokoham ADVAN Neova AD08R is not on our website at this time. It is so new it hasn't even made it to the North America yet but, it will start arriving in the next few weeks.


We have just completed our testing of these new entries into the Extreme Performance tire world and will be publishing our results very soon so, keep an eye on our website for the full test report.
Wow. Thanks for the great review. I will probably be buying some Rivals from you guys very soon. Would you be able to provide a discount by going through you on this site?
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Old 06-14-2013, 09:31 PM   #17
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Any advice on tire size best for Autocross application? (I realize "best might not be the best term here, but hopefully you get my point.)

Running Stock 17x8 BBS wheels, probably going to buy those BFG Rivals.
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Old 06-14-2013, 09:42 PM   #18
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Its autocross. You are free to do all sorts of backwards ****. Run the widest possible tire you can. Not what fits best on the wheel. Literally. The widest tire you can fit on the wheel.
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Old 06-14-2013, 09:45 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sc00by4life View Post
Its autocross. You are free to do all sorts of backwards ****. Run the widest possible tire you can. Not what fits best on the wheel. Literally. The widest tire you can fit on the wheel.
You don't need to worry about side wall rolling over or anything?
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Old 06-14-2013, 09:52 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke@tirerack View Post
kudo's guys there are lots of good posts in here ...

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Right now when talking about the top tier of performance street tires is all about 4 tires

1.) BF Goodrich G-Force Rival

2.) Bridgestone Potenza RE11A

3.) Dunlop Direzza Z2

4.) Yokohama ADVAN Neova AD08R

I have driven on all of them, both on the street and on the track, here's my take.

All, were very good and for 3 out of 4 noticeable upgrades from their predecessors. They certainly have blurred the line between "race tires you can drive on the street" and "street tires you can drive on the track".

As far as road manners go I liked the low road noise and comfortable ride of the Bridgestone Potenza RE11A with the Yokohama being a very close second. The Rival is very "darty" on the road and follows road irregularities. The Dunlop is, by far, the noisiest of the four.

The track is is where these tires show their true metal. With all producing over a 1g average in the dry it made for some fun driving. In the end the two fastest tires for me were the Dunlop Direzza Z2 and the BF Goodrich G-Force Rival. I was fastest on the BFG by a slight margin while some of my associates were faster on the Z2's.

While, the Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Specs and Hankook Ventus R-S3 were battling it out of supremacy last season this new crop tires have made them also rans. The Star Spec has been discontinued in favor of the superior performance of the Z2. The R-S3 is definitely showing its' age with comparatively sluggish steering response as well as its lack of composure and stability under heavy load.


NOTE: You will not find the Yokoham ADVAN Neova AD08R is not on our website at this time. It is so new it hasn't even made it to the North America yet but, it will start arriving in the next few weeks.


We have just completed our testing of these new entries into the Extreme Performance tire world and will be publishing our results very soon so, keep an eye on our website for the full test report.
Luke,

Is the new AD08 a material upgrade (like RE11A) or are there other changes?
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Old 06-15-2013, 09:53 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by jaboyd View Post
Luke,

Is the new AD08 a material upgrade (like RE11A) or are there other changes?
outward appearances of the AD08R is unchanged from the AD08 so, it is most likely a compound upgrade as the internal carcass of the AD08 was very good already
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Old 06-15-2013, 05:12 PM   #22
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Luke, any advice on sizes?
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Old 06-16-2013, 03:12 PM   #23
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Luke, any advice on sizes?
With 17x8 wheels and BFG Rivals in mind, your tire size choices should either be 245/40/17 or 225/45/17. On a typical AutoX course, the 245/40 tire has slightly more performance potential, but unless you're nationally competitive or a top 10% driver, I don't think you'll see any difference in your lap times between the two sizes. Given that, I'd choose the size that's more readily available and costs less.
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Old 06-16-2013, 06:29 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by jprice130 View Post
With 17x8 wheels and BFG Rivals in mind, your tire size choices should either be 245/40/17 or 225/45/17. On a typical AutoX course, the 245/40 tire has slightly more performance potential, but unless you're nationally competitive or a top 10% driver, I don't think you'll see any difference in your lap times between the two sizes. Given that, I'd choose the size that's more readily available and costs less.
Do you mean 235/45/17 instead of 225/45?
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Old 06-16-2013, 06:59 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by CopperTopNWOR View Post
Do you mean 235/45/17 instead of 225/45?
As far as I know, the Rivals are not currently available in 235/45/17. The OP seemed sold on the Rivals, so that's why I suggested the two available sizes that would fit his 17x8 wheels the best.
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