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Old 06-18-2013, 10:49 PM   #51
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I am confused where the 20 minutes = 200 miles comes from (ID was right, I read that as 7 hours on 200 miles, but I am on my 4th glass of wine, sue me)

According to TESLA on superchargers.

The Tesla Supercharger recharges Model S quickly. Super quickly. Superchargers are for refueling quickly on road trips. A Supercharger can charge about half the battery in 30 minutes. All Model S vehicles with the 85 kWh battery can use Superchargers as can properly equipped 60 kWh battery vehicles. Superchargers will be positioned at convenient locations along major interstates throughout the country.

If you assume 260 miles on a full charge which is real world results form Tesla owners, then you can get 130 miles from 30 minutes...

130 miles in 30 min does not equal 200 miles in 20 min

Again legav is sugarcoating the Tesla performance.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:39 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
I am confused where the 20 minutes = 200 miles comes from (ID was right, I read that as 7 hours on 200 miles, but I am on my 4th glass of wine, sue me)

According to TESLA on superchargers.

The Tesla Supercharger recharges Model S quickly. Super quickly. Superchargers are for refueling quickly on road trips. A Supercharger can charge about half the battery in 30 minutes. All Model S vehicles with the 85 kWh battery can use Superchargers as can properly equipped 60 kWh battery vehicles. Superchargers will be positioned at convenient locations along major interstates throughout the country.

If you assume 260 miles on a full charge which is real world results form Tesla owners, then you can get 130 miles from 30 minutes...

130 miles in 30 min does not equal 200 miles in 20 min

Again legav is sugarcoating the Tesla performance.
Keeping reading before posting.

Superchargers are being upgraded from 90kW to 120kW and charging profile improved for even faster relative charge.
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Old 06-19-2013, 12:05 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
I am confused where the 20 minutes = 200 miles comes from (ID was right, I read that as 7 hours on 200 miles, but I am on my 4th glass of wine, sue me)

According to TESLA on superchargers.

The Tesla Supercharger recharges Model S quickly. Super quickly. Superchargers are for refueling quickly on road trips. A Supercharger can charge about half the battery in 30 minutes. All Model S vehicles with the 85 kWh battery can use Superchargers as can properly equipped 60 kWh battery vehicles. Superchargers will be positioned at convenient locations along major interstates throughout the country.

If you assume 260 miles on a full charge which is real world results form Tesla owners, then you can get 130 miles from 30 minutes...

130 miles in 30 min does not equal 200 miles in 20 min

Again legav is sugarcoating the Tesla performance.
yore a lightweight.
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Old 06-19-2013, 10:06 AM   #54
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you do not know how big the glasses were!

But yeah, I am a lightweight.
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Old 06-19-2013, 10:07 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by legav05 View Post
Keeping reading before posting.

Superchargers are being upgraded from 90kW to 120kW and charging profile improved for even faster relative charge.
I got this data from the TESLA supercharger web page on thier site. I went back and checked again, and they said that it can give 200 miles in 30 minutes. Not 20, and they said in 20 minutes it can provide half a charge. Half a charge is pretty vague. What is half a charge?

Most owners get about 265 miles per charge, so is that 135 miles? Or more?

I think the supercharger stations are a neat idea. Is Elon footing the bill for now for these stations? Or is the taxpayer? Or both? I would like to know just whose pocket the electricity is coming from as well.

If I had to guess, I would say a combination of both, but the supercharger diner business model is smart. While your car charges you are basically stranded for 30 minutes. So you may as well buy a burger and a coke...Elon may buy your electricity, but I bet he makes up for it in consessions/food/reading material, etc. That guy is savvy...

Last edited by SCRAPPYDO; 06-19-2013 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 06-19-2013, 11:50 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
I got this data from the TESLA supercharger web page on thier site. I went back and checked again, and they said that it can give 200 miles in 30 minutes. Not 20, and they said in 20 minutes it can provide half a charge. Half a charge is pretty vague. What is half a charge?
It's 1/2 of the battery's capacity. There are different battery packs depending on the Tesla Model S you bought, so they can't claim a mileage. Because of the way the batteries have to be charged at slower rates as the existing charge increases, they can only guarantee a half charge in 20 minutes.. but a full charge may take much longer.
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Old 06-19-2013, 11:56 AM   #57
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regardless lets reach a compromise and say its more like 5 hrs of driving. ok?

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Old 06-19-2013, 12:36 PM   #58
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If I had to guess, I would say a combination of both, but the supercharger diner business model is smart. While your car charges you are basically stranded for 30 minutes. So you may as well buy a burger and a coke...Elon may buy your electricity, but I bet he makes up for it in consessions/food/reading material, etc. That guy is savvy...
On this note, I just read an article on how electric cars are killing roads, by avoiding the road repair tax included in gasoline at the pump. Do the question was do we tax electric car owners? Welcome to America.

It seems like the answer they may come to is keep the electricity free and ad taxs or unavoidable fees in these "waiting stages".

Not trying to derail a thread. Just interesting
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Old 06-19-2013, 12:53 PM   #59
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Okay electric cars are not killing roads..

That is even too dramatic for me to get on board with.

Their is just so few of them!! That is like saying their are too many Hermaphrodites in line at McDonalds making the wait times too long.
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Old 06-19-2013, 01:13 PM   #60
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Yea I'm with you. And even if you can justify a negative like that, the benefits still probably outweighs the negs.

All I could think about was very confused treehuggers.
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Old 06-19-2013, 01:14 PM   #61
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[There] are too many Hermaphrodites in line at McDonalds making the wait times too long.
You heard it here first, folks! Get outraged!
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Old 06-19-2013, 01:43 PM   #62
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Is Elon footing the bill for now for these stations? Or is the taxpayer? Or both? I would like to know just whose pocket the electricity is coming from as well.
I don't know the specifics, but I do know that the IOU's (Investor Owned Utilities) are *extremely* eager to see electric cars become main stream so that can show some demand growth and can potentially utilize all these batteries to help out with load management and intermittent renewable generation. I would be very surprised if Elon did not get some subsidies from the ratepayers via the IOU's. Elon is also the guy behind Solar City, and I know for a fact that he has extremely powerful connections at the CPUC as well as the IOU's and muni's in the state.
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Old 06-19-2013, 02:05 PM   #63
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Okay electric cars are not killing roads..

That is even too dramatic for me to get on board with.

Their is just so few of them!! That is like saying their are too many Hermaphrodites in line at McDonalds making the wait times too long.
throwing some "factual" numbers out there.

200MM cars on the road in the US.

There are (maybe) 200M electric cars on the road right now. If we really want to stretch this, you can add 2.6MM of hybrid cars to the mix.

All said and done that's 1.5% of cars on the road.

And this ignores the assumption that commercial vehicles cause a majority of the damage to the road.
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Old 06-19-2013, 02:25 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
I got this data from the TESLA supercharger web page on thier site. I went back and checked again, and they said that it can give 200 miles in 30 minutes. Not 20, and they said in 20 minutes it can provide half a charge. Half a charge is pretty vague. What is half a charge?

Most owners get about 265 miles per charge, so is that 135 miles? Or more?

I think the supercharger stations are a neat idea. Is Elon footing the bill for now for these stations? Or is the taxpayer? Or both? I would like to know just whose pocket the electricity is coming from as well.

If I had to guess, I would say a combination of both, but the supercharger diner business model is smart. While your car charges you are basically stranded for 30 minutes. So you may as well buy a burger and a coke...Elon may buy your electricity, but I bet he makes up for it in consessions/food/reading material, etc. That guy is savvy...
From Tesla's Shareholder letter.
Quote:
We plan to spend about $200 million on capital expenditures in 2013, as we conclude the majority of our investment
in the Tesla Factory and Model S tooling. Capital spending also includes the expansion of our service, store and
Supercharger networks and new product development.

So to answer your question. Tesla the company is footing the bill. Not Elon and not the taxpayers.

Last edited by Indocti Discant; 06-19-2013 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 06-20-2013, 07:45 AM   #65
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Drove one of these on Saturday. Holy hell I want one. Massive wallop of power when you step on it, and at any speed. It pulls just as hard from 60-100 as it does from 0-60. Handling is awesome. You can feel that it's a big car, but because all the weight is so low (center of gravity is only 16 inches off the ground), and it has a 50-50 weight distribution, it still feels really nimble. The interior is sumptuous. The adjustable suspension is pretty cool to watch from the outside. The touchscreen is actually really intuitive and smooth, and I'm not usually a fan of them. Overall, I simply fell in love. It's efficient when you want it to be, and bonkers powerful when want to hoon it up. So much want...
But it only gets comparable gas mileage to a Civic!
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Old 06-20-2013, 07:47 AM   #66
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That is like saying their are too many Hermaphrodites in line at McDonalds making the wait times too long.
Hey, have you checked for yourself?! It's out of control!
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Old 06-20-2013, 05:32 PM   #67
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So to answer your question. Tesla the company is footing the bill. Not Elon and not the taxpayers.
That's capital equipment only, which does not include the energy. I'd bet a cookie that there is a deal between the utilities and Tesla for the energy that is subsidized by ratepayers.
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Old 06-21-2013, 02:29 AM   #68
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That's capital equipment only, which does not include the energy. I'd bet a cookie that there is a deal between the utilities and Tesla for the energy that is subsidized by ratepayers.
I'd like my cookie please.

Quote:
The technology at the heart of the Supercharger was developed internally and leverages the economies of scale of existing charging technology already used by the Model S, enabling Tesla to create the Supercharger device at minimal cost. The electricity used by the Supercharger comes from a solar carport system provided by SolarCity, which results in almost zero marginal energy cost after installation. Combining these two factors, Tesla is able to provide Model S owners1 free long distance travel indefinitely.

Each solar power system is designed to generate more energy from the sun over the course of a year than is consumed by Tesla vehicles using the Supercharger. This results in a slight net positive transfer of sunlight generated power back to the electricity grid. In addition to lowering the cost of electricity, this addresses a commonly held misunderstanding that charging an electric car simply pushes carbon emissions to the power plant. The Supercharger system will always generate more power from sunlight than Model S customers use for driving. By adding even a small solar system at their home, electric car owners can extend this same principle to local city driving too.
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Old 06-21-2013, 08:18 AM   #69
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That sounds great, but ( and you knew there was a but )

I always read anything that speaks in Abolutes like 'The Supercharger system will always generate more power from sunlight than Model S customers use for driving'

Solar power has evolved a bit, but has limitations. Since SolarCity is not owned by Tesla (at least I do not think it is) they are allocating a certain amount of their power to the supercharger system.

Does SolarCity just give their electricity to Tesla customers for Free?

EDIT

I had to stop writing and do some research on this. IT is very interesting on how these businesses are intertwined and back room deals are made.

But in a nutshell, initially the Government was giving BoA a guaranty on a 330+million dollar loan to solarcity, which is owned by Elon and his cousins (I know shocking). However after the Solyndra explosion the government said, enough bad press already, we are not going to guaranty anything.

However, that may have stopped most companies, but Elon is not your average customer. BoA agreed to proceed with the loan without the safety net of the government Department of Energy backing it.

Does this speak to the maturity of an industry and the prices of solar panels coming down?


or


Does this speak to the obvious advantages of being a billionare when applying for a loan?

You decide.

But to answer your question, Yes, for the time being the charging stations will be totally free. Because Elon owns the Car, the charging stations, and the solar power plants giving the charging stations energy

I can see Elon going the way of Apple Inc. on this car. He can make the Tesla an entire lifestyle vehicle. If he succeeds, he will add many many more billions to his bottom line.
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Old 06-21-2013, 11:53 AM   #70
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I keep hearing different numbers of Teslas' sold. Is there an unbiased source for sales...

never mind I will look myself...it is my question after all.
You can look up the SEC reports that is the only accurate number. They come out quarterly and are a pain in the butt to deal with. I did dig the numbers out of the most recent reports though. That is where the estimates you see in the media come from anyway. They are total cars though and I don't know if they are all going to the US so comparing to other vehicles may be misleading.

Funny that they are talking about battery swap again now given my earlier comment...
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Old 06-21-2013, 01:08 PM   #71
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you guys are hilarious.

My observations are the following.

You have strong beliefs. You take those beliefs and present those as "facts" and then have a lot of strong outrage at it. I correct you and then you go ahead and make up other outraged opinion about some of these facts.

Elon's net worth doesnt mean squat when it comes to applying for a Loan. Scrappy you need to understand how financing, corporations and stock ownership works. Elon is NOT Tesla and Solarcity. They are viable corporations which applied for financing on their own merit. Elon only comes into play with his willingness to backstop the firms (highly unlikely if things go south) and his brilliance in leading them.

As for becoming Apple? Welcome to seeing the world without wool over your eyes.

Sxotty... looking at 10Kand Qs is a pain? come on... locate the K or Q (Tesla IR, or sec.gov). Ctrl+F units sold / Look at the MD&A. Then again I have looked at over 50k such docs in my lifetime.

Quote:
We delivered approximately 4,900 Model S vehicles during the three months ended March 31, 2013.

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Old 06-21-2013, 06:35 PM   #72
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I'd like my cookie please.
What is your preferred type of cookie, sir.

It wouldn't work without net metering, but that is a legislative requirement that the IOU's are fighting against very hard right now.
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Old 06-22-2013, 08:29 AM   #73
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Sxotty... looking at 10Kand Qs is a pain? come on... locate the K or Q (Tesla IR, or sec.gov). Ctrl+F units sold / Look at the MD&A. Then again I have looked at over 50k such docs in my lifetime.
Yes it is a pain. The major auto companies list monthly sales in a news release. Tesla lists quarterly units sold, but you don't know if those sales are all in the US etc... it makes comparisons a pain. You cannot see if they are following the same monthly trends as the other makers. And units sold comes up with more than one entry in the pdfs. I think there was like 6 separate spots in there or something.
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Old 06-23-2013, 08:12 AM   #74
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Yes it is a pain relatively. The major auto companies list monthly sales in a news release. Tesla lists quarterly units sold, but you don't know if those sales are all in the US etc... it makes comparisons a pain. You cannot see if they are following the same monthly trends as the other makers. And units sold comes up with more than one entry in the pdfs. I think there was like 6 separate spots in there or something.
fixed.

Tesla is not your traditional Auto OEM. See dealership fight for a great example.

They will eventually start providing better color on their unit sales.
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Old 06-23-2013, 12:03 PM   #75
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1) Drive a Model S. An anti-tesla view will face some serious doubts once you actually get to touch the car & feel its engineering.
2) Yes the car itself is made in the USA, with batteries from Panasonic. Is every other car sold in the U.S. actually made here & fueled with US sourced gas? Probably not.
3) The govt loan has been repaid, so "Thanks for the jump start Mr. Govt, we'll handle the rest of this race."
4) Ummm, battery swapping -
5) I'd put up my own car as a bet to show that the majority of seeking alpha anti Tesla submissions are by those who have shorts against TSLA stock.
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