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Old 06-11-2013, 06:45 PM   #1
Culti
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Default Where did my modding go wrong?

Hey guys, I have a 2007 STi that I've been modding for about the past 4 years and until recently, it had been going well. My end result is a 400whp daily driver.

1st Tune: AMR 2" UEL headers, grimmespeed up-pipe, invidia catted dp, invidia n1 race, fuel pump, halman mbc, and 38mm ewg. 19psi and it ran 315whp, 365wtq.

2nd tune: Turbo XS fmic added, 21 psi and it ran 324whp, 354 wtq.

3rd tune: AMR C70 Turbo, DW 850 injectors, turbo xs short ram. 23 psi and it ran 354whp, 363wtq.

4th tune: due to issues with no crash beam and engine temp spikes i switched to process west top mount. on 19psi car made 339whp and 325wtq....

what the hell? The car was more fun and ran better with only $2000 worth of mods than it did with over $6000. What is wrong with these? The turbo feels non-existent and it honestly feels like it drives worse with the "best" tmic? There's no "throwing back in the seat" feeling any more and it no longer has a "fast feeling" let alone the wastegate comes on at like 3500 rpm...

anyone have suggestions on where to go next? I'd like to not touch the engine block too much but I'll do what needs to be done.
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Old 06-11-2013, 06:50 PM   #2
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who are you tuned by?
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Old 06-11-2013, 07:34 PM   #3
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I guess you found out the wrong way to go

and your 'issues' maybe were better solved in other ways and you found the wrong combination of parts
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:26 PM   #4
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We're those runs all on the same dyno, with fairly similar temps? Or at least the same type of dyno?

Throw a WON direct port on there-it will take care of your lack of acceleration...
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Old 06-11-2013, 10:46 PM   #5
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The c70 isn't all that big, and all tmics heat soak. All of them. And you're making less power, you would have been able to keep your engine temps under control with a little sheet metal shroud and a different thermostat, maybe even a higher rated fan or a/c delete, more efficient radiator etc. the tq ramp is what you're missing, and a lot of that is coming from the heat soak. There's only so much you can do to combat it, but it's guaranteed in stop and go traffic.
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Old 06-11-2013, 10:50 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dstroy View Post
The c70 isn't all that big, and all tmics heat soak. All of them. And you're making less power, you would have been able to keep your engine temps under control with a little sheet metal shroud and a different thermostat, maybe even a higher rated fan or a/c delete, more efficient radiator etc. the tq ramp is what you're missing, and a lot of that is coming from the heat soak. There's only so much you can do to combat it, but it's guaranteed in stop and go traffic.
all ya really need is a aluminum radiator....nothing else
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Old 06-11-2013, 10:53 PM   #7
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It says both FMIC and TMIC in your post which is it?

It seems you need to stop playing guess and check and get find a tuner that will help you find hte right parts.

I am in the same boat right now 18g xt with a ton of support mods on e-85 and the torque and quick spool of the td04 felt amazing compared to this slow but small pinning that doesnt end until close to redline, granted i walk on cars that used to drag me like a dead dog but the torque isnt there.
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:02 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shortpersonbk View Post
It says both FMIC and TMIC in your post which is it?

It seems you need to stop playing guess and check and get find a tuner that will help you find hte right parts.

I am in the same boat right now 18g xt with a ton of support mods on e-85 and the torque and quick spool of the td04 felt amazing compared to this slow but small pinning that doesnt end until close to redline, granted i walk on cars that used to drag me like a dead dog but the torque isnt there.
If you read closely he switched back from a FMIC to a TMIC.
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:06 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by codesoccer View Post
If you read closely he switched back from a FMIC to a TMIC.
and im dumb i didnt read the whole 4th tune line

i doubt alot of that is coming from heatsoak, a PW topmount is definitely the best one out that according to most people. He should have no problem getting a run or two in at night to avoid that "heat soak". I am willing to bet there is more problems regarding his tune than anything.
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:08 PM   #10
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you went wrong when you picked an EJ to modify beyond stage 2.
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:15 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shortpersonbk View Post

and im dumb i didnt read the whole 4th tune line

i doubt alot of that is coming from heatsoak, a PW topmount is definitely the best one out that according to most people. He should have no problem getting a run or two in at night to avoid that "heat soak". I am willing to bet there is more problems regarding his tune than anything.
If you don't own it, don't assume that he isn't getting heat soak. And heat soak is from sitting and then going, sitting and going. You know... Traffic. It's completely unavoidable, even at night.
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:33 PM   #12
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but on the dyno there should be massive fans blowing air onto the tmic so thus should keep temps down during a tuning session which is where we are seeing these numbers. yes there is some heat soak from this setup but some shops have used a GT3076 with a tmic and made a lot more power then he is.

post the dyno sheets up lets see how they look.

why were you getting engine temp spikes? what else was wrong?
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Old 06-12-2013, 01:01 AM   #13
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def post your dynos.

those stage 2 numbers sound like a very generous dyno, and the other numbers dont sound good at all.

Is the motor healthy?

We put together many 400whp-ish mustang dyno subies and the formula is pretty simple.

Turbo big enough to make the power, fuel system good enough to deliver the fuel, exhaust parts, and thats about it. Not too complex.

Our basic power package for a 400whp 2007 STi from stock would be:
Blouch Dom 1.5-3XTR 3" 10cm
3" Inlet
Any 3" TBE
GS Uppipe (EWG Optional)
TGV Deletes, AI Deletes
DW300 pump, parallel rails, external FPR, ID1000 injectors
3" intake unless SD
3bar MAP
Speraco/PW TMIC
EBCS or MBC
Forged pistons (optional)

I dont know that turbo firsthand, but the AMS stuff Ive dealt with has been unimpressive. Hopefully that turbo manifold is a lot better than the one I bought.

Something is not right with the setup for sure if that turbo really flows 52lbs. What does your tuner say?
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:26 AM   #14
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I think you meant to say AMR not AMS
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:40 AM   #15
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short ram + TMIC + draw through MAF? Well there's a big problem right there...
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:41 AM   #16
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Honestly it sounds like a bad tune or your motor got hurt somewhere along the way and lack of compression is causing a lack of power. After stage 2 these cars stop being fun and more a headache it seems. I liked my car alot better stage 2, it was a hell of alot slower but was alot less to worry about.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:36 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicked Innovation View Post
Our basic power package for a 400whp 2007 STi from stock would be:
Blouch Dom 1.5-3XTR 3" 10cm
3" Inlet
Any 3" TBE
GS Uppipe (EWG Optional)
TGV Deletes, AI Deletes
DW300 pump, parallel rails, external FPR, ID1000 injectors
3" intake unless SD
3bar MAP
Speraco/PW TMIC
EBCS or MBC
Forged pistons (optional)
Hey this list seems familiar

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Old 06-12-2013, 02:39 PM   #18
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Butt dyno likes torque over HP. If getting thrown back in the seat is all that is required for a "fun" car, then smaller turbos are where it's at. I'm guessing from your numbers that the 1st tune was the most fun.
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Old 06-12-2013, 03:19 PM   #19
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Thats why I asked about the motor health, sounds like you have low compression or some other issue. Once the OP responds, Im sure we can sort this out.

You can make around 400whp on a subaru and keep VF levels of torque, you just have to be smart about the setup. (or run E85 haha) Personally I think the 350-400 WHP and WTQ level is the best overall for a fun subie.

Here are a few similar examples
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...php?p=39897407
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2348328
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2400605

I have tons more that arent posted on FB, we literally use the same type setup over and over because it works, and when it doesnt, something is wrong.

Wicked M@
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Old 06-14-2013, 09:02 PM   #20
Culti
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Sorry, here's some clarification guys....

Car has a Mishimoto X line Radiator after i was getting temp spikes with my fmic. Just one of the many reasons I switched back. I have a theory that the air coming into my hood scoop (I have the Seibon CW II which has a bigger hood scoop than stock) is negating some of the air pressure coming into the front bumper. I have read that you need to block off the hood scoop when running a front mount? Not sure, maybe someone who knows their physics can explain how that works? To be honest, I don't think this radiator has done anything to combat the temps. I haven't pushed it with this new tmic setup yet but it's not filling me with confidence after spending $350 for it... It's been in for a year

Car did only 3 pulls on a mustang dyno at R/T Tuning in Landsdale Pennsylvania. The guy who worked on it has 12 years of subaru experience and has always done a good job on the car. It was dynoed on a ~75 degree day.

Mind you I am still waiting for the process west splitter so the air coming into the scoop is not directly going to intercooler.... shipping issues but will hopefully be here soon.

I am planning on using some sheet aluminum to "duct" the radiator and hopefully do a bit better at keeping the car cool. I've heard the ducting is really helpful.

Finally, here's my tuner's suggestions. I told them 2 years ago I wanted a car that was capable of 400whp. I told them I didn't want to go 400 immediately but wanted to take steps. I was on a 325whp setup with 350wtq (#2). I was planning on hitting 360whp and ~375wtq for this first modding session. They told me that the AMR C70 was capable of 400. They tested it on some scion TCs... The idiot in me thought ok that's legit, scions are exactly like subarus, even after reading on AMR's website it maxed at 350... I then went with their suggestion of the Deatschwerk 850 injectors, and the Cluthcmasters FX300 clutch. They then asked me if I wanted top mount or front mount. I said, well all the big hp cars use front mounts, let me get that. They recommended the Injen Phantom.... wtf.... I read about that and it's basically the stock top mount except it costs $1200. So i went with the turbo XS ($870 with a bpv) and I also got the K&N Typhoon. The Typhoon apparently didnt fit so they put the turbo xs short ram in. Of course after it was dynoed they tell me the turbo maxes at 350..... $1800 on a pretty much stock turbo... F*** me right? Why didn't I spend an extra $100 and get a Blouch 3.0 dom.... someone shoot me. Anyway.... I'm gonna try to find my dyno sheets. I have the one with the front mount and turbo (#3) and then the most recent disappointing one (#4).

How can i post them btw? I've tried posting pictures in the past and they never worked...
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Old 06-14-2013, 09:20 PM   #21
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You said temps where spiking with the FMIC, how so? Just running hotter than normal or what?
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Old 06-14-2013, 09:27 PM   #22
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sounds like the tuner/shop is giving you bad advice... and maybe you need to research the parts a bit better.
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Old 06-14-2013, 09:44 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funk32 View Post
sounds like the tuner/shop is giving you bad advice... and maybe you need to research the parts a bit better.
^ This

Sounds like the shop is full of a bunch of idiots. This is one of the main reasons why when certain mods on this forum (*cough* Unabomber *cough*) respond to threads with "ignore all of us, contact your shop, and do exactly what they say to the letter" pisses me off. There are PLENTY of shops who know next to nothing, and educating yourself before diving into ANY build can be nothing but beneficial. Blindly following whatever your shop says and just writing them checks for thousands of dollars without knowing what is going on is ****ing retarded if you ask me...and is just BEGGING for problems like this.

rant over

Now, getting back to your problems...FMICs don't cause overheating, problems with your setup causes overheating. I've had a TXS FMIC on my 05 for years, built motor, rotated 30r, and have NEVER ONCE come close to overheating. And yes, I still have the stock gigantic 05 hood scoop, it doesn't matter.

It may be time for you to either:
1) Find a new shop
or
2) Start researching for yourself and stop blindly following your shop's advice (something that EVERYBODY who goes with a shop for their build should be doing...)
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Old 06-14-2013, 10:20 PM   #24
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You have to host pics on an external website like photobucket. I'm still not sure what you mean by temp spikes either. Like you watched your needle move into the red? Or were you monitoring some other way? I literally have my Entire engine radiator covered up by a 12"x24" AWIC heat exchanger, and drive like a total dbag and my coolant temp (canbus) never goes above 192*f. After multiple 20psi for 15-20 second runs today on 24n it was 74*f out. I have ducting, and that's it, still on my stock rad.
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Old 06-14-2013, 10:29 PM   #25
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so my water temp needle went above the optimal range, only happened once, but there were other times were it got really close to going over and i have to blast the in cabin heat to have it come down a bit and drive really cautiously. I also have an oil temp gauge that currently reads around 200 with normal driving and about 210 with a little more spirited. with the front mount it was closer to 210 normal and 220 with spirited. I know i've looked it up before but what's optimal temp. 190?

Also, what do you mean by a 12x24 AWIC heat exchanger? Is that something I can buy? Also, how do you have your ducting setup? I really want to build a quality piece that really forces the air into the rad.
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