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Old 07-02-2013, 04:24 PM   #26
MikeNH
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I can't multi-quote from the phone but I never said a fullsize wasn't enough, just that the idea that buying this diesel will make a good tow rig isn't entirely true as the brakes and suspension (especially with the Ram's coils) don't take the weight as well as a HD truck. Realistically I wouldn't regularly want to tow more than 75% of the rated weight with a half ton. But if you're taking a camper or boat out a few times each summer that isn't the person I'm talking about. I'm talking about say the landscaper that has to lug a trailer every day, I don't think that this would be a solid option.

As for wants/needs in a truck, everyone is different. I've only pulled a trailer with this once in the 2.5 years I've had it, when I moved to Michigan. I do still occasionally need to carry bulky/heavy things but what it comes down to for me is that I can only have one vehicle currently so it needs to be all things- something with 4WD for winter, something I can take to the dunes, something comfortable for the drives I make back to NH a few times a year and most important to me, something that has enough power to make me happy day to day. And that's what I have with about any modern fullsize with a V8. In an ideal world I wouldn't live in a stupid apartment and would maybe have a beater 4x4, maybe a cheapo daily driver and then a fun car- likely a Mustang or Camaro.

Regardless, the fuel economy is unimportant to me. I drive rentals most of the week for work and have only driven the truck about 4000 miles all year. I used to do that in a month sometimes but now it sits most days.
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Old 07-02-2013, 04:51 PM   #27
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More diesels, more better. More turbo's, even more better. All good things in this thread even if its not want you want quite yet.
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Old 07-02-2013, 05:19 PM   #28
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The engine is sourced from VM Motori. It's an Italian diesel engine.
I was about to mention this as well. According to the Wikipedia article on Fiat's JTD engines, this VM Motori engine can produce up to 275HP (in the forthcoming 2014 Maserati Ghibli 3).
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Old 07-02-2013, 06:06 PM   #29
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this might be a GREAT replacement for my 2500. I tow a trailer that weighs 7-8k so nothing huge. While I LOVE my 2500, its not very comfortable to drive.... and its still worth ~20k.... so if these things come in around 30k.... this might just work out!

Any stat's on what the power gains are for these motors and reliability on the transmissions?
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:04 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Integra96 View Post
Unrelated but does the $1,100 destination fee seem high?

Cool diesel option. Imagine if a Tacoma-sized truck had this kind of engine.
Toyota already introduced new one in Asia, They all have diesels over there. Wonder what Toyota is waiting for? Think Obama unpredictability on energy issues. Don't want to invest in training, parts etc in USA market.

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2011/10...mments/page/2/
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:22 AM   #31
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Toyota already introduced new one in Asia, They all have diesels over there. Wonder what Toyota is waiting for? Think Obama unpredictability on energy issues. Don't want to invest in training, parts etc in USA market.

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2011/10...mments/page/2/
the hoops diesels need to jump through for emissions compliance in the us (California) end up being a big reason.

vw had pulled the tdi in the us for a couple years before coming out with the newer engine.
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:21 PM   #32
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the hoops diesels need to jump through for emissions compliance in the us (California) end up being a big reason.

vw had pulled the tdi in the us for a couple years before coming out with the newer engine.
Let's not forget that other states have voluntarily adopted Cali's emissions standards (a.k.a. CARB states). At some point, there were 13 states in the list (maybe more now). These CARB states are totalling between 30%~40% of U.S. vehicle sales.
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:37 PM   #33
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Toyota already introduced new one in Asia, They all have diesels over there. Wonder what Toyota is waiting for? Think Obama unpredictability on energy issues. Don't want to invest in training, parts etc in USA market.

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2011/10...mments/page/2/
IMO, the whole issue began a long time ago way before Obama.
When EPA was finally created in 1970 under Nixon's administration Cali's already had its own emission standards and ARB/CARB had been created in 1967 under then governor Reagan.
Back then the federal government couldn't or wouldn't ask Cali to drop its CARB standards and that's why we have 2 standards now. And we would have had even more standards if the feds hadn't forced states to either choose CARB or EPA standards instead of coming up with their own specific standards.
Actually Obama has been pushing for one single set of standards which should supposedly happen for MY2016.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:07 AM   #34
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$5k more for 40 fewer hp when compared to the Pentastar V6. I'm sure there is a niche that will love it, but I don't see too many people paying that premium for an 11% fuel economy bump over the more powerful Pentastar V6. (Comparing 2WD 25mpg V6 gas to 2WD 28mpg V6 diesel).
For people that buy a truck just to have a truck and hardly ever use it as a truck, then you're probably right.

But if you actually use this as a truck, then you're wrong. Having to tow loads for business or recreation, this diesel is perfect for the job. It's not about horsepower and it's not about how much torque it produces. Most V8's today will provide close to 400 ft/lbs of torque, and over 300hp. It's about how low can you produce that torque. Most gas V8's, produce torque way too high in the power band and is uncomfortable for towing. Only the Ecoboost F150 and this Ram 1500 desiel produce nearly full torque at cruising idle which makes it feel like there is nothing behind you.

High fuel mileage and the ability to tow comfortably on the weekends makes this the perfect vehicle for people with ATV's, Dirtbikes, snowmobiles, Boats, horses and RV's. And for people with a construction business or a farm, it'll save money in the long run.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:24 AM   #35
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Max torque at idle would matter if gears didn't exist. In the days of 8 speed automatics, the gasser v6 will do that recreational towing just fine. We aren't stuck with 4 speed autos anymore.

Again, it is a $5k premium over the pentastar... and it likely won't see the incentives of the gas engine so we're probably looking at a $7k difference. You better be driving a load of miles to make any sense for a recreational owner.
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Old 07-09-2013, 01:07 PM   #36
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Max torque at idle would matter if gears didn't exist. In the days of 8 speed automatics, the gasser v6 will do that recreational towing just fine. We aren't stuck with 4 speed autos anymore.

Again, it is a $5k premium over the pentastar... and it likely won't see the incentives of the gas engine so we're probably looking at a $7k difference. You better be driving a load of miles to make any sense for a recreational owner.
You obviously don't tow very often or for very long. Gears will keep you in any specific RPM range you need to get the torque you need. Having more gears means you have more resolution at any given ground speed. It'll give you the desired rpm necessary for the load without having to overshoot as much. But that doesn't ignore the fact that all your torque is still much higher in the power band. You'll have to floor it up grades and listen to the annoying VRMMMMM of the engine as you try to climb grades. Or the fact that you lose precious power and torque at higher altitudes.

I've towed with all kinds of vehicles, from older 7.3L diesels to modern 5500 series trucks, including many variants of gasoline V8 engines, and v6's, down to my little 2.5i subaru. You can tow with anything as long as it has enough torque and power, but to tow comfortably you need LOW END torque.

You make it sound like the V6 8 speed combo is all you need. If you tried towing my 5500lb loaded travel trailer with a V6 Ram, V8 Ram, and the 3.0 ecodiesel, you wouldn't be saying that.
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Old 07-09-2013, 01:18 PM   #37
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You'll have to floor it up grades and listen to the annoying VRMMMMM of the engine as you try to climb grades.
If having less "vrmmmm" when towing is worth $7k to you, then buy one by all means.
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Old 07-09-2013, 01:30 PM   #38
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If having less "vrmmmm" when towing is worth $7k to you, then buy one by all means.
Now where are you getting $7k from??? The V6 even with the 8 speed only has 269ft-lbs of torque, it's not adequate for pulling my trailer very far. The only options are the V8 or the EcoDiesel 3.0 V6. So yes, the extra $2,850 is worth the extra coin considering the fuel mileage savings will recoup over the course of 200k miles vs the gas V8. You break even over the life of the vehicle.

So essentially you aren't paying any more for the diesel in the long run, but have the added towing ability. I've towed an airstream once with a mercedes GL class 3.0 diesel. It was a pleasure to drive.
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Old 07-09-2013, 03:19 PM   #39
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$7k is fair when considering that you won't see incentives on the 3.0 like you would the pentastar. Otherwise, congrats for being part of the niche I mentioned in the first place. I don't see this revolutionizing the truck marketplace like all diesel enthusiasts think it will.

Classic case of "it is what I want, so it must be what everyone wants!"
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Old 07-09-2013, 03:37 PM   #40
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$7k is fair when considering that you won't see incentives on the 3.0 like you would the pentastar. Otherwise, congrats for being part of the niche I mentioned in the first place. I don't see this revolutionizing the truck marketplace like all diesel enthusiasts think it will.

Classic case of "it is what I want, so it must be what everyone wants!"
Actually it's not a niche, you live a sheltered life. The number one selling car in america is not the toyota camry, not a ford focus, or anything like that. It's the F150. Yes that's right, a 1/2 ton truck. Fleet and commercial sales account for a large chunk of sales, but most are ordered with V8 engines, in particular the coyote 5.0 engine. The next biggest selling engine to everyone's suprise is the F150 ecoboost. Even ford didn't think they would sell as much and are struggling to keep up with demand for the ecoboost. The ecoboost is a $1500 option above the 5.0 coyote engine. The truck is pushing $37,000 for a crew cab ecoboost. The dodge even with the ecodiesel is right at about $40k. When you're spending that much on a pickup, the extra price of the diesel is not much if it's what you want.

http://wardsauto.com/vehicles-amp-te...les-top-100000

Far more people tow more than you think. Nearly every truck in farm country is used for towing. Also for constructions and trades jobs. Every contractor needs to occasionally rent equipment like a skid steer or scissor lift etc... Some people just like diesels because they last forever, or some will buy it for the mpg without sacrificing payload and towing, instead enhancing it.

Again, when you're spending $37k on a truck, an extra $2850 is not really going to break the bank for most people. There is value in the diesel and it's not a niche. I think sales will outpace supply, especially in all rural areas.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:24 PM   #41
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Yup, my sheltered life in WV where every guy drives a truck and where my dad owned a contracting business for 20+ years. Insanely enough, power sells trucks to your retail buyers. Cost sells to your fleet buyers. Ecoboost sells on power delivery, IMO. I don't see your real tow guys stepping down from a 3/4 ton. I don't see your lifestyle buyers paying more for torque and a lot less power when gas really isn't that expensive right now. I don't see the fleet buyers paying $5k more for an unproven diesel (diesels aren't bombproof like the old days).

What is really funny is that I'm the kind of buyer that would pay for more fuel economy. If the premium were $2k over the Pentastar, it would be much more compelling. But $5k is a lot of money for an unproven diesel. I'm also a weirdo that would buy a V6 full size truck. I'm obviously not the normal truck buyer.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:21 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by gggplaya View Post
For people that buy a truck just to have a truck and hardly ever use it as a truck, then you're probably right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gggplaya View Post
The number one selling car in america is not the toyota camry, not a ford focus, or anything like that. It's the F150. Yes that's right, a 1/2 ton truck.
There you have it, most people who drive trucks just want a truck, and hardly ever use it as a truck.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:15 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by quentinberg007 View Post
Yup, my sheltered life in WV where every guy drives a truck and where my dad owned a contracting business for 20+ years. Insanely enough, power sells trucks to your retail buyers. Cost sells to your fleet buyers. Ecoboost sells on power delivery, IMO. I don't see your real tow guys stepping down from a 3/4 ton. I don't see your lifestyle buyers paying more for torque and a lot less power when gas really isn't that expensive right now. I don't see the fleet buyers paying $5k more for an unproven diesel (diesels aren't bombproof like the old days).

What is really funny is that I'm the kind of buyer that would pay for more fuel economy. If the premium were $2k over the Pentastar, it would be much more compelling. But $5k is a lot of money for an unproven diesel. I'm also a weirdo that would buy a V6 full size truck. I'm obviously not the normal truck buyer.
Agreed on the Diesel cost premium argument. However, a quick Internet search reveals that this specific VM Motori engine is supposedly quite reliable (Banks Power has been planning to pitch it to U.S. Armed Forces).
But, yeah, I also agree, RAM's specific implementation/integretion of this engine in the 1500 could prove...err.. dodgy... I mean problematic . More seriously, Fiat is no newbie when it comes to Diesel powertrains and integration of Diesel powertrains.
So I would expect the Diesel-powered RAM 1500 to work pretty well.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:23 PM   #44
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Here's a link on Banks Power website about their own custom version of the VM Motori Diesel V6:

http://www.bankspower.com/magazines/...-diesel-engine

The article says that, while Fiat owns 50% of VM Motori, GM holds the other 50%...
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Old 07-10-2013, 09:52 AM   #45
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Yup, my sheltered life in WV where every guy drives a truck and where my dad owned a contracting business for 20+ years. Insanely enough, power sells trucks to your retail buyers. Cost sells to your fleet buyers. Ecoboost sells on power delivery, IMO. I don't see your real tow guys stepping down from a 3/4 ton. I don't see your lifestyle buyers paying more for torque and a lot less power when gas really isn't that expensive right now. I don't see the fleet buyers paying $5k more for an unproven diesel (diesels aren't bombproof like the old days).

What is really funny is that I'm the kind of buyer that would pay for more fuel economy. If the premium were $2k over the Pentastar, it would be much more compelling. But $5k is a lot of money for an unproven diesel. I'm also a weirdo that would buy a V6 full size truck. I'm obviously not the normal truck buyer.

Like i said before, the initial price is higher, but over the life of the vehicle, the cost recoups itself back. Not to mention the much higher resale value of the diesel engine. Heck, pre-2008 jeep grand cherokee CRD's with a similar engine are still going for over $20k.

When you look at VW and their TDI lineup, 20% of all VW sales are diesel, and that percentage is climbing. My local dealer can't even keep the Passat TDI in inventory, each one is spoken for before they even come in. Even with no inventory my friend(VW salesman) said almost half of passat sales at his dealership are TDI. The TDI is a $2500 premium which is about 10% more over the comparable gas model, you get an extra 10mpg. The diesel in the ram is only about a 7% increase in price in an already large price tag. The extra $2850 has alot of extra value over the V8 counterpart.

I really don't think a 1/2 ton diesel is a niche market. I think it will compete in the main truck market which only has 5 trucks to choose from(Titan, Tundra, GM, Ford, and Ram). I think it will gain the ram some market share and pull sales away from other brands. A niche is something specialized to a specific need, pulling sales away in the mainstream market is not a niche. Again, i think the V6 RAM will be the main engine for most buyers, but when a buyer needs or wants something more and is looking in V8 territory, the diesel is IMO the way to go.

The economics do work out if you think the extra MPG are negligible, at current fuel prices($3.50 for 87, $3.83 for diesel):
If you compare the current V8 to the Ecodiesel you will recover costs in 75k miles.
If you compare the latest 2014 GM V8 or Ford Ecoboost to the Ecodiesel you will recover costs in 130k miles.
If you compare the RAM V6 8 speed to the Ecodiesel, you will recover costs in 185k miles.

However after looking at Edmunds and Ram Trucks website, it appears the pentastar V6 actually costs more then the hemi 5.7L. I assume due to the 8 speed transmission. So that figure for the V6 comparison is a little apples to oranges until we get final pricing. Also, if fuel prices go up, those recoup mileage figures will go down.
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:27 AM   #46
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I personally love the concept. After towing with a diesel ill never return to a gas truck. Along with fuel cost savings, there is also less maintenance that goes into diesels. And the resale.. Look around and most 05+ diesels with 150k on the odometer still sale for 20k. Diesel rigs just run longer and stronger. Assuming the engine is solid, like the cummins.
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:55 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gggplaya View Post
For people that buy a truck just to have a truck and hardly ever use it as a truck, then you're probably right.

But if you actually use this as a truck, then you're wrong. Having to tow loads for business or recreation, this diesel is perfect for the job. It's not about horsepower and it's not about how much torque it produces. Most V8's today will provide close to 400 ft/lbs of torque, and over 300hp. It's about how low can you produce that torque.
It's been a very long time since I drove a turbodiesel work truck.. but when I did, they had very mediocre low end torque until the turbo finally spooled up. Are modern truck diesels really producing torque just off idle? I know that semis aren't particularly impressive torque-wise off idle.. and they're built to tow... but they have loads of gearing.
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:32 AM   #48
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It's been a very long time since I drove a turbodiesel work truck.. but when I did, they had very mediocre low end torque until the turbo finally spooled up. Are modern truck diesels really producing torque just off idle? I know that semis aren't particularly impressive torque-wise off idle.. and they're built to tow... but they have loads of gearing.
Actually you misquoted me, notice how i said "cruising idle". At work we have all kinds of equipment and vehicles, i've used them all and towed with them all. We have older ford 7.3L's and 6.0's, as well as newer Ford 6.4L's and brand new Dodge 6.7's. We also have a few merc diesel sprinter vans. Modern diesels HD trucks are a far cry from the older trucks. The old 7.3's were a dog even at full boost, and had a long turbo lag. But it was not directly rpm dependent to reach boost. It had more to do with the throttle position and airflow. The larger the turbo the longer the lag, but even from a dead stop if you mash the throttle you experience a 2 seconds delay while you hear the turbo spool, then the rpm's climb as you move. But after that 2 second lag delay, you have gobs of torque to move your load. That's the idle you are talking about.

I'm talking about cruising idle, on the highway at 1500-2000rpm. Even on the old 7.3L, the turbo lag is negligible once you step on the throttle. The new engines are even better. While cruising you have most of your torque available at these rpms with negligible lag. In my experience with gas NA engines is that you usually have to cruise in lower gears with the rpm's much higher when you have a large box trailer or heavy load behind you.

The sprinter van's have a much smaller turbo with very little to any delay(not noticeable to me any more than a gas engine) and will be more like the 1/2 ton dodge diesel 3.0L. I've driven the van on several occasions towing a roughly 4000lbs box trailer. Same for the Merc GL diesel suv i towed a travel trailer with. It was very nice.
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:51 AM   #49
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Let's not forget that other states have voluntarily adopted Cali's emissions standards (a.k.a. CARB states). At some point, there were 13 states in the list (maybe more now). These CARB states are totalling between 30%~40% of U.S. vehicle sales.
What I don't understand is why anyone would look at anything CA does and think they should follow it. Clearly the state is a winner on all levels right?
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:18 PM   #50
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I personally love the concept. After towing with a diesel ill never return to a gas truck. Along with fuel cost savings, there is also less maintenance that goes into diesels. And the resale.. Look around and most 05+ diesels with 150k on the odometer still sale for 20k. Diesel rigs just run longer and stronger. Assuming the engine is solid, like the cummins.
Except the maintenance part is completely up in the air at the moment. Ever since the switch to ultra low sulfur and more strict particulate and NOX emissions, many of your modern diesels are looking at Urea injection, particulate traps, and other sorts of post combustion fixes. My coworker's '11 Ram Cummins has been anything but reliable thanks to all the new emission equipment. This 3.0 might be rock solid, but it is way to early to assume it will have less maintenance. It is simply a different ball game since 2009 or so.
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