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Old 07-08-2013, 09:48 PM   #101
Lminette
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Nobody is mentioning that the Fiestas and Darts are far removed from their road going bretren (engines and drivetrains are no longer Ford or Dodge, they are custom built by OMSE). Both are built by OMSE so out of the box they are from a company with decades of experience. The Subaru's are much closer to those you can buy every day (though still lightyears away). Sure Subaru could have gone to OMSE and gotten the same treatment but they chose to develop the cars and that is taking time. The cars have gotten much better end with the right drivers (Higgins to be specific) are competitive. Mirra is garbage (no offense to him personally) but in my opinion he doesn't have the chops and never will. If you can't keep the car in one piece how do you expect to be competitive? Lasek remains to be seen but throwing these guys in the cars is just a marketing scheme to bring the flatbiller bros aboard. Put real drivers in and things would probably be much different.
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:57 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Lminette View Post
Nobody is mentioning that the Fiestas and Darts are far removed from their road going bretren (engines and drivetrains are no longer Ford or Dodge, they are custom built by OMSE). Both are built by OMSE so out of the box they are from a company with decades of experience. The Subaru's are much closer to those you can buy every day (though still lightyears away). Sure Subaru could have gone to OMSE and gotten the same treatment but they chose to develop the cars and that is taking time. The cars have gotten much better end with the right drivers (Higgins to be specific) are competitive. Mirra is garbage (no offense to him personally) but in my opinion he doesn't have the chops and never will. If you can't keep the car in one piece how do you expect to be competitive? Lasek remains to be seen but throwing these guys in the cars is just a marketing scheme to bring the flatbiller bros aboard. Put real drivers in and things would probably be much different.
Yes get rid of the flatbill brosky's and put in someone who can wheel a damn car!!
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:58 PM   #103
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Yes get rid of the flatbill brosky's and put in someone who can wheel a damn car!!
We need Doran!! Screw mini he needs Subaru in his life

EDIT: or Scott Speed, though he isn't rally centered he can still wheel a car
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Old 07-08-2013, 10:08 PM   #104
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Lasek is on this board and has posted from time to time but I'm not sure will read these comments. Even though he is 40? years old he is still winning gold medals at the X-Games which is pretty damn impressive.

The reality is 90% of people who are in professional motorsports have plenty of money. Not just guys who buy rides when they are older, but most pro drivers either come from families with pro drivers or they have money or both. Racing isn't cheap, and people don't get sponsored from the getgo.
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Old 07-08-2013, 10:19 PM   #105
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We need Doran!! Screw mini he needs Subaru in his life

EDIT: or Scott Speed, though he isn't rally centered he can still wheel a car
Scott speed is the guy! Races F1, NASCAR, he can wheel a rally car as well with a little seat time
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Old 07-08-2013, 10:23 PM   #106
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Scott speed is the guy! Races F1, NASCAR, he can wheel a rally car as well with a little seat time
I agree, went out his first GRC event and won! He can wheel anything he was put in! Scott Speed is the American driver we can count on in any car! We just need him in a Subaru
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Old 07-08-2013, 10:48 PM   #107
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Lasek is on this board and has posted from time to time but I'm not sure will read these comments. Even though he is 40? years old he is still winning gold medals at the X-Games which is pretty damn impressive.

The reality is 90% of people who are in professional motorsports have plenty of money. Not just guys who buy rides when they are older, but most pro drivers either come from families with pro drivers or they have money or both. Racing isn't cheap, and people don't get sponsored from the getgo.
Being a good racecar driver usually takes pedigree. Most amazing racecar drivers start at an early age. The thing the separates them with us is they don't have that switch in their head that says, "going way to fast for this turn, must apply the brake now!" If you aren't born this way or trained this way you may never have it. Pastrana has it, even for a guy who is fairly new to Motorsport. He has been top of his game in motocross. There is a certain knack that I cannot describe. You have to be crazy I suppose. But what do I know. I'm a spectator.
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Old 07-08-2013, 10:55 PM   #108
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Being a good racecar driver usually takes pedigree. Most amazing racecar drivers start at an early age. The thing the separates them with us is they don't have that switch in their head that says, "going way to fast for this turn, must apply the brake now!" If you aren't born this way or trained this way you may never have it. Pastrana has it, even for a guy who is fairly new to Motorsport. He has been top of his game in motocross. There is a certain knack that I cannot describe. You have to be crazy I suppose. But what do I know. I'm a spectator.
It takes someone to show you the car can take it as well. My dad holds 3 track records around sebring in certain classes. I was running a 2:40ish in his miata when he would run a 2:35 or faster and I couldn't understand how he did it. So we put a passenger seat in the car and he took me around the track and showed me where I was losing time. My time is now down to a 2:36 consecutively, I just had to know that the car would stick at a certain speed in the corner. I will admit, you have to go against the little guy in your head saying "brake, do it or you will die!" And I think wrecking a car will help you understand where you went wrong. My rx7 and I learned that the hard way...

My point being, anyone can learn how to drive a car fast, it just takes time and big balls
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:28 PM   #109
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It takes someone to show you the car can take it as well. My dad holds 3 track records around sebring in certain classes. I was running a 2:40ish in his miata when he would run a 2:35 or faster and I couldn't understand how he did it. So we put a passenger seat in the car and he took me around the track and showed me where I was losing time. My time is now down to a 2:36 consecutively, I just had to know that the car would stick at a certain speed in the corner. I will admit, you have to go against the little guy in your head saying "brake, do it or you will die!" And I think wrecking a car will help you understand where you went wrong. My rx7 and I learned that the hard way...

My point being, anyone can learn how to drive a car fast, it just takes time and big balls
Yes it does! Average joe schmoes who fancy themselves racecar drivers don't understand that. Lets talk about taking a turn at 90mph, not a straight line but a long 4 per say. Knowing how to control the weight transfer of the car, left foot braking, speed shifting, and yes sometimes but rarely e brake turns. It takes skill, mad skill! That separates the boys from the men.
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:30 AM   #110
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Nobody is mentioning that the Fiestas and Darts are far removed from their road going bretren (engines and drivetrains are no longer Ford or Dodge, they are custom built by OMSE). Both are built by OMSE so out of the box they are from a company with decades of experience. The Subaru's are much closer to those you can buy every day (though still lightyears away). Sure Subaru could have gone to OMSE and gotten the same treatment but they chose to develop the cars and that is taking time. The cars have gotten much better end with the right drivers (Higgins to be specific) are competitive. Mirra is garbage (no offense to him personally) but in my opinion he doesn't have the chops and never will. If you can't keep the car in one piece how do you expect to be competitive? Lasek remains to be seen but throwing these guys in the cars is just a marketing scheme to bring the flatbiller bros aboard. Put real drivers in and things would probably be much different.
Subaru had to go to ProDrive to be winner in WRC. I think they have dominated in US Rally because of that development and the drivers. When/if there ever becomes a serious European team involvement and more entries that are not Subaru, the domination will fade. The team that spends the money will win. Subaru is in it for the cheap advertising. Going for some flatbill sales. I would bet they wouldn't even be involved if it weren't for Puma.
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:37 AM   #111
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Subaru had to go to ProDrive to be winner in WRC. I think they have dominated in US Rally because of that development and the drivers. When/if there ever becomes a serious European team involvement and more entries that are not Subaru, the domination will fade. The team that spends the money will win. Subaru is in it for the cheap advertising. Going for some flatbill sales. I would bet they wouldn't even be involved if it weren't for Puma.
Unfortunately you're correct. I miss the days of Lancia and Audi, absolutely killing group B rally. One revolutionary technological breakthrough after another. They weren't trying to move cars, they were trying to win. They introduced some beautiful rally monsters. To this day I've always wanted a lancia stratos or a quattro s1. Unfortunately these cars barely made it into production. Only 237 each year ever had to be produced to compete.
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:09 AM   #112
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I assume you have seen the documentary..."To Fast to Race". I think it shows that the Group B cars were just to far out there for the existing technology and courses of the day.
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Old 07-09-2013, 12:22 PM   #113
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Subaru had to go to ProDrive to be winner in WRC. I think they have dominated in US Rally because of that development and the drivers. When/if there ever becomes a serious European team involvement and more entries that are not Subaru, the domination will fade. The team that spends the money will win. Subaru is in it for the cheap advertising. Going for some flatbill sales. I would bet they wouldn't even be involved if it weren't for Puma.
You mean how like Ken Block is currently being competitive in the Rally America series with his Ford Fiesta? All manufacturers are in it for the advertising, and a Vermont Sports Car prepped Open Class Subaru is not cheap by any means. None of this is cheap.

Also, the flatbill references are getting kind of trite.
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Old 07-09-2013, 12:34 PM   #114
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Wow, so much hate for the Subaru drivers.

I could be wrong but the Subarus appear to be too big, and too heavy in comparison to the fords. These are tight courses that give an advantage to a smaller car.

How does the HP compares between the two?
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Old 07-09-2013, 01:35 PM   #115
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You mean how like Ken Block is currently being competitive in the Rally America series with his Ford Fiesta? All manufacturers are in it for the advertising, and a Vermont Sports Car prepped Open Class Subaru is not cheap by any means. None of this is cheap. .
I don't follow it closely, is Ken Block doing well? Not that great in WRC. Does make some fine self promoting videos though.

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Also, the flatbill references are getting kind of trite.
Had not seen that reference until lately...seems appropriate though.
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Old 07-09-2013, 01:37 PM   #116
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Wow, so much hate for the Subaru drivers.

I could be wrong but the Subarus appear to be too big, and too heavy in comparison to the fords. These are tight courses that give an advantage to a smaller car.

How does the HP compares between the two?
There does seem to be a lot of hate, but they haven't proved to be that good, at least not in the cars they are currently driving.
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Old 07-09-2013, 02:29 PM   #117
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I assume you have seen the documentary..."To Fast to Race". I think it shows that the Group B cars were just to far out there for the existing technology and courses of the day.
Great documentary.
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Old 07-09-2013, 02:31 PM   #118
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Wow, so much hate for the Subaru drivers.

I could be wrong but the Subarus appear to be too big, and too heavy in comparison to the fords. These are tight courses that give an advantage to a smaller car.

How does the HP compares between the two?
Last time I checked WRC caps HP at 300hp. More emphasis on torque and handling goes into the sender machines.
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Old 07-09-2013, 03:31 PM   #119
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I don't follow it closely, is Ken Block doing well? Not that great in WRC. Does make some fine self promoting videos though.



Had not seen that reference until lately...seems appropriate though.
If you had read any of this thread, you'd have seen that Block finished 2nd in GRC in Munich and his best finish in the WRC was 7th at rally Mexico. Flatbills have hit every form of motorsport, including F-1.

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Old 07-09-2013, 04:43 PM   #120
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Yeah but Kimi can't rally without crashing ergo why he is back in F1. Block is an exception but by no means the rule. There are far more talented drivers out there but most of these guys are put in the cars cause of who they are not what they can do. Better results equals better bang for your buck rather than having guys crash out and be like dude, bro, etc... Pastrana and Higgins were both able to be competitive in the scoobies (Pastrana with hand controls even). Deegan can drive as well but I hate his personality. Just put drivers in the cars and let their results speak for themselves.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:11 PM   #121
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Yeah but Kimi can't rally without crashing ergo why he is back in F1. Block is an exception but by no means the rule. There are far more talented drivers out there but most of these guys are put in the cars cause of who they are not what they can do. Better results equals better bang for your buck rather than having guys crash out and be like dude, bro, etc... Pastrana and Higgins were both able to be competitive in the scoobies (Pastrana with hand controls even). Deegan can drive as well but I hate his personality. Just put drivers in the cars and let their results speak for themselves.
If you're generalizing motorsports drivers as a whole being based on personality rather than skills, then you'd also have to consider how many drivers pay for the privilege of driving an F-1 car, Lemans, NASCAR etc. All forms of motorsport have drivers who pay to be in the series, and all forms of motorsport have drivers who are they because they draw big crowds. This isn't a condition that's explicit to rally racing, stage or cross.

FLATBILLZ.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:26 PM   #122
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I would say no driver races without paying in some form. Some have money and some talent and buy their way in. Others have to work their asses off to get sponsors so they can buy their way in. And others have gotten to the point where they don't have to work their asses off for sponsors to buy their way in. Some even have to wear those silly flatbill caps in public as pay!

Back to the point. Subaru is putting okay, but not great drivers in okay, but not great cars. The result is one podium finish in two years so far. I predict a television run of just another year or two and the GRC will be gone anyway. Other than maybe the X Games, I don't think the numbers are all that great.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:02 PM   #123
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No one has mentioned Sverre Isachsen..he is supposedly a really good driver by his stats..we will see on Thursday how good he actually is
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:13 PM   #124
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Sverre is supposedly good that's true. I think he's had a run of bad luck. I just find it interesting that Higgins showed up at Xgames last year and really showed up the other Subaru drivers and kept up with the Fords as well. He was addded last minute racing an underpowered car too (compared to his Subaru stable mates). Had he been int Sverre's or Mirra's car that would have been interesting.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:46 PM   #125
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How are you guys watching the GRC races? I cant seem to find a legal or illegal way to watch them, or past races
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