Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Monday September 22, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Miscellaneous > Off-Topic

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-07-2013, 11:07 PM   #276
Matt K
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 45204
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: you are so complex
Vehicle:
16 you don't
respond to danger

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by banman View Post
Unless you've been in a plane crash, it's sympathy, not empathy.
uh, no. I'm not going to quote the dictionary at you, but that's not the difference between sympathy and empathy.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Matt K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:10 PM   #277
Integra96
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 64196
Join Date: Jun 2004
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Vehicle:
2010 Family Sedan

Default

It's homeopathy, actuals.
Integra96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:12 PM   #278
Matt K
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 45204
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: you are so complex
Vehicle:
16 you don't
respond to danger

Default

homeon't play that game
Matt K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:23 PM   #279
Vectors2Final
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 15553
Join Date: Feb 2002
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Austin, Texas
Vehicle:
'13 Wife's Exploder
No drive in Korea

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by richy_21 View Post
Man I hope CNN misreported that. 43 hours
Here's what they are saying.

Quote:
Asiana Says Pilot of Crashed Plane Was in Training

SEOUL — Asiana Airlines Inc said the pilot in charge of landing the Boeing 777 that crash-landed at San Francisco's airport on Saturday was training for the long-range plane and that it was his first flight to the airport with the jet.

"It was Lee Kang-kook's maiden flight to the airport with the jet... He was in training. Even a veteran gets training (for a new jet)," a spokeswoman for Asiana Airlines said on Monday.

The plane was travelling "significantly below" its intended speed and its crew tried to abort the landing just seconds before it hit the seawall in front of the runway, the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board said on Sunday.

"He has a lot of experience and previously flown to San Francisco on different planes including the B747... and he was assisted by another pilot who has more experience with the 777," the spokeswoman said.

Lee, who started his career at Asiana as an intern in 1994, has 9,793 hours of flying experience, but only 43 hours with the Boeing 777 jet.

Co-pilot Lee Jeong-min, who has 3,220 hours of flying experience with the Boeing 777 and a total of 12,387 hours of flying experience, was helping Lee Kang-kook in the landing, the spokeswoman said.

National Transportation Safety Board Chairwoman Deborah Hersman said Sunday that it was too early to say whether pilot error or mechanical failure were to blame.

But she said there was no evidence of problems with the flight or the landing until 7 seconds before impact, when the crew tried to increase the plane's speed and the plane responded normally. The control tower was not alerted to any plane issues.

Witnesses said the plane on Saturday appeared to be too low as it approached the runway, hit the ground before the runway started and the impact sheared off part of the tail of the plane and possibly landing gear as well.

Asiana's chief executive said on Saturday that he did not believe the fatal crash was caused by mechanical failure, although the carrier refused to be drawn on whether the fault laid with pilot error.

(Reporting by Hyunjoo Jin; Editing by Ryan Woo)]
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2013/...a.html?hp&_r=0
Vectors2Final is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:24 PM   #280
Indocti Discant
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 138000
Join Date: Jan 2007
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: et ament meminisse periti
Vehicle:
L Bo Hope you meet
the spirit in the sky

Default

taking a quick step back here.... (and instead of assuming) why should only 43 hours of flight time matter so much in a 777 if he has several thousand hours in other commercial jets?
Indocti Discant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:25 PM   #281
PGT
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 57283
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Loudoun
Vehicle:
2014 4.7L of TT Fury
w/ 4Matic

Default

newest CNN headline.

Quote:
Flight 214 pilot was in training for 777
PGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:29 PM   #282
Globerunner513
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 188062
Join Date: Aug 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Bellingham WA
Vehicle:
1975 Datsun 280z
Daytona Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indocti Discant View Post
taking a quick step back here.... (and instead of assuming) why should only 43 hours of flight time matter so much in a 777 if he has several thousand hours in other commercial jets?
Doesn't really, at least not as much as the media wants the public to think with headlines like the above post.

It's normal transition to a new aircraft. If you move to a new type, at some point you are going to have your 'first flight' on that plane. Imagine those headlines. ugh.
Globerunner513 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:30 PM   #283
Vectors2Final
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 15553
Join Date: Feb 2002
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Austin, Texas
Vehicle:
'13 Wife's Exploder
No drive in Korea

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Globerunner513 View Post
Doesn't really, at least not as much as the media wants the public to think with headlines like the above post.

It's normal transition to a new aircraft. If you move to a new type, at some point you are going to have your 'first flight' on that plane. Imagine those headlines. ugh.
Pretty much.
Vectors2Final is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:32 PM   #284
Matt K
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 45204
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: you are so complex
Vehicle:
16 you don't
respond to danger

Default

being ignorant of such things, I'd have though the "new guy" would be in the copilot seat. But I guess the whole thing is ostensibly under the control of the more experienced pilot, regardless of which chair he's sitting in.
Matt K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:33 PM   #285
Indocti Discant
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 138000
Join Date: Jan 2007
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: et ament meminisse periti
Vehicle:
L Bo Hope you meet
the spirit in the sky

Default

See, these are probably the only things that I can come up with.

1. lack of familiarity with cockpit and controls (highly unlikely)
2. lack of familiarity with throttle and plane response
3. lack of familiarity with vision out of the cockpit

none of those seem to be good enough to cause such a blatant mistake.
Indocti Discant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:38 PM   #286
Vectors2Final
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 15553
Join Date: Feb 2002
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Austin, Texas
Vehicle:
'13 Wife's Exploder
No drive in Korea

Default

I know the 777 has auto throttles from what I've been reading in the pilot boards
Vectors2Final is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:46 PM   #287
042
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 332955
Join Date: Sep 2012
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: WA
Vehicle:
95 Legacy

Default

I didn't read the whole thread so I apologize if this was answered...but what has happened in previous situations like this if they determined it was pilot error? Can they be criminally charged? I assume at the least it's basically the end of their professional flying career, but I could be wrong about that as well.
042 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:48 PM   #288
Vectors2Final
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 15553
Join Date: Feb 2002
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Austin, Texas
Vehicle:
'13 Wife's Exploder
No drive in Korea

Default

I think so. I know if I **** up while controlling traffic, that I'll be going to the ass slammer.
Vectors2Final is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:49 PM   #289
richy_21
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 58670
Join Date: Apr 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Behind the scope
Vehicle:
2005 got muuuuu?

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vectors2Final View Post
I know the 777 has auto throttles from what I've been reading in the pilot boards
Thanks for that CNN article! That sums up what I had thought about but didn't want to just start slinging out ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 042 View Post
I didn't read the whole thread so I apologize if this was answered...but what has happened in previous situations like this if they determined it was pilot error? Can they be criminally charged? I assume at the least it's basically the end of their professional flying career, but I could be wrong about that as well.
Not really career ending. You'll probably get suspended probably with pay; medically discertified possible for a while. But then again I don't have to many airline pilots.
richy_21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:51 PM   #290
richy_21
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 58670
Join Date: Apr 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Behind the scope
Vehicle:
2005 got muuuuu?

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vectors2Final View Post
I think so. I know if I **** up while controlling traffic, that I'll be going to the ass slammer.
Haha...come to the big leagues. First time offense is remedial training; or some OJT. Really nothing at all in some cases. You just have to live with your mistakes.
richy_21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:54 PM   #291
Vectors2Final
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 15553
Join Date: Feb 2002
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Austin, Texas
Vehicle:
'13 Wife's Exploder
No drive in Korea

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by richy_21 View Post
Haha...come to the big leagues. First time offense is remedial training; or some OJT. Really nothing at all in some cases. You just have to live with your mistakes.
They do the same thing for us. I've given OJT and remedial to my controllers, but if you blatantly make a mistake you can be toast.

I'm sure it's worse in the civilian world.
Vectors2Final is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:55 PM   #292
Globerunner513
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 188062
Join Date: Aug 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Bellingham WA
Vehicle:
1975 Datsun 280z
Daytona Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt K View Post
being ignorant of such things, I'd have though the "new guy" would be in the copilot seat. But I guess the whole thing is ostensibly under the control of the more experienced pilot, regardless of which chair he's sitting in.
You are correct that the Captain, most likely the more experienced of the two is ultimately in command.

Remember, 'co-pilot' is too often misinterpreted as 'apprentice pilot'. Although he likely was sitting in the right seat, that doesn't necessarily dictate who was flying the plane.

The crew (2 capable pilots) will usually decide before a trip who will operate each segment, or leg. There isn't just one 'pilot', or one 'pilot seat' for the flight. There is however only one pilot designated to operate the controls for that leg, while the other pilot will 'monitor' and backup with communications, and other cockpit duties which might otherwise increase the workload of the pilot flying. Typically one pilot will operate the flight going to the destination, and then switch with the other operating the return.
It sounds like the more experienced between the two would operate the return flight. A smart decision to allow the 'new' pilot the flight experience operating a 777 into SFO while the conditions were forecasted to be ideal.
Globerunner513 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:58 PM   #293
matt30
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 97330
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: California/New York
Vehicle:
2003 WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 042 View Post
I didn't read the whole thread so I apologize if this was answered...but what has happened in previous situations like this if they determined it was pilot error? Can they be criminally charged? I assume at the least it's basically the end of their professional flying career, but I could be wrong about that as well.
Criminal charges are really only brought when there is gross negligence (think almost reckless) conduct.

For simple negligence, like what we might have here, it's just a fat lawsuit for you and the airline.
matt30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:58 PM   #294
richy_21
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 58670
Join Date: Apr 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Behind the scope
Vehicle:
2005 got muuuuu?

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vectors2Final View Post

They do the same thing for us. I've given OJT and remedial to my controllers, but if you blatantly make a mistake you can be toast.

I'm sure it's worse in the civilian world.
Yeah I should have clarified that. If your intentionally causing harm you will be facked; Natca won't even supply the lube.
richy_21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 12:00 AM   #295
Vectors2Final
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 15553
Join Date: Feb 2002
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Austin, Texas
Vehicle:
'13 Wife's Exploder
No drive in Korea

Default

Vectors2Final is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 12:04 AM   #296
etothen
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 221885
Join Date: Aug 2009
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland
Vehicle:
09 Ivory Tower
Ivory...duh

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indocti Discant View Post
See, these are probably the only things that I can come up with.

1. lack of familiarity with cockpit and controls (highly unlikely)
2. lack of familiarity with throttle and plane response
3. lack of familiarity with vision out of the cockpit

none of those seem to be good enough to cause such a blatant mistake.
I would assume (but I am not a pilot so I do not know from personal experience) that the "New Guy (who has 1000's of real world hours flying big planes already)" would have had hundreds of hours in a simulator before flying his maiden passenger carrying flight, probably with hundreds of practice landing at that very airport in various simulated conditions.

Right?

And shouldn't 'auto throttle' prevent just such a glide slope?
etothen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 12:05 AM   #297
matt30
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 97330
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: California/New York
Vehicle:
2003 WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Globerunner513 View Post
You are correct that the Captain, most likely the more experienced of the two is ultimately in command.

Remember, 'co-pilot' is too often misinterpreted as 'apprentice pilot'. Although he likely was sitting in the right seat, that doesn't necessarily dictate who was flying the plane.

The crew (2 capable pilots) will usually decide before a trip who will operate each segment, or leg. There isn't just one 'pilot', or one 'pilot seat' for the flight. There is however only one pilot designated to operate the controls for that leg, while the other pilot will 'monitor' and backup with communications, and other cockpit duties which might otherwise increase the workload of the pilot flying. Typically one pilot will operate the flight going to the destination, and then switch with the other operating the return.
It sounds like the more experienced between the two would operate the return flight. A smart decision to allow the 'new' pilot the flight experience operating a 777 into SFO while the conditions were forecasted to be ideal.
I heard a rumor that some of the Asian-based airlines allow an unstabilized approach. And that there might have been some pressure on some of these pilots to not go around on a nice sunny day at a busy international airport.
matt30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 12:13 AM   #298
Vectors2Final
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 15553
Join Date: Feb 2002
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Austin, Texas
Vehicle:
'13 Wife's Exploder
No drive in Korea

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt30 View Post
I heard a rumor that some of the Asian-based airlines allow an unstabilized approach. And that there might have been some pressure on some of these pilots to not go around on a nice sunny day at a busy international airport.
There were also a lot of seemingly bitter "former" airline pilots of both Asiana and Korean Air talking about how they don't let a lot of their pilots do go a rounds unless approach criteria weren't met, as if it was the only "get out of jail free" for a go around. They also yelled at pilots for conducting visual approaches instead of flying the ILS. They wanted all their pilots instruments only regardless of the situation.
Vectors2Final is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 12:15 AM   #299
AllAWD
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 17079
Join Date: Apr 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Alexandria, VA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt30 View Post
I heard a rumor that some of the Asian-based airlines allow an unstabilized approach. And that there might have been some pressure on some of these pilots to not go around on a nice sunny day at a busy international airport.
When would their not be pressure for a professional pilot to do his job correctly and land the plane on the first try?

Every plane gets unlimited redos?
AllAWD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 12:37 AM   #300
Screaming_Emu
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 137003
Join Date: Jan 2007
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Front Royal, VA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Sedan
Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vectors2Final View Post
That's their job. That's my job. The last thing you'd ever want a controller to do is to fold on the mic and lose the picture. That's when people start to to die, or nearly die. It can be nerve recking, but you've gotta remain neutral on the mic. I have never had an emergency on that scale before.
Meh...that's why we have TCAS :-P
Screaming_Emu is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.