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Old 07-09-2013, 04:33 PM   #476
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I hate that united has pretty much discontinued their ATC channel.

I love turbulence when the hot chick next to me looks to me for support.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:51 PM   #477
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Originally Posted by jds View Post
Try flying in Colorado on a Dash-8 or CRJ or, worse yet, a B190 on a windy summer afternoon. I've had pilots announce "If you need the restroom, use it now, because you will not have a chance to get up during the flight."

I mean the little guys:

Fly in one of those in Afghanistan is the best!
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:54 PM   #478
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Also, this was the visual they were on.



Keep in mind, there were no SOIAs authorized during construction.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:24 PM   #479
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This may get the TLDR treatment, but its worth a read ... From the pilot boards.

Quote:
Asiana flight crash at San Francisco
Low-down on Korean pilots, (From a friend).

After I retired from UAL as a Standards Captain on the -400, I got a job as a simulator instructor working for Alteon (a Boeing subsidiary) at Asiana. When I first got there, I was shocked and surprised by the lack of basic piloting skills shown by most of the pilots. It is not a normal situation with normal progression from new hire, right seat, left seat taking a decade or two. One big difference is that ex-Military pilots are given super-seniority and progress to the left seat much faster. Compared to the US, they also upgrade fairly rapidly because of the phenomenal growth by all Asian air carriers. By the way, after about six months at Asiana, I was moved over to KAL and found them to be identical. The only difference was the color of the uniforms and airplanes. I worked in Korea for 5 long years and although I found most of the people to be very pleasant, it is a minefield of a work environment ... for them and for us expats.

One of the first things I learned was that the pilots kept a web-site and reported on every training session. I dont think this was officially sanctioned by the company, but after one or two simulator periods, a database was building on me (and everyone else) that told them exactly how I ran the sessions, what to expect on checks, and what to look out for. For example; I used to open an aft cargo door at 100 knots to get them to initiate an RTO and I would brief them on it during the briefing. This was on the B-737 NG and many of the captains were coming off the 777 or B744 and they were used to the Master Caution System being inhibited at 80 kts. Well, for the first few days after I started that, EVERYONE rejected the takeoff. Then, all of a sudden they all got it; and continued the takeoff (in accordance with their manuals). The word had gotten out. I figured it was an overall PLUS for the training program.

We expat instructors were forced upon them after the amount of fatal accidents (most of the them totally avoidable) over a decade began to be noticed by the outside world. They were basically given an ultimatum by the FAA, Transport Canada, and the EU to totally rebuild and rethink their training program or face being banned from the skies all over the world. They hired Boeing and Airbus to staff the training centers. KAL has one center and Asiana has another. When I was there (2003-2008) we had about 60 expats conducting training KAL and about 40 at Asiana. Most instructors were from the USA, Canada, Australia, or New Zealand with a few stuffed in from Europe and Asia. Boeing also operated training centers in Singapore and China so they did hire some instructors from there.

This solution has only been partially successful but still faces ingrained resistance from the Koreans. I lost track of the number of highly qualified instructors I worked with who were fired because they tried to enforce normal standards of performance. By normal standards, I would include being able to master basic tasks like successfully shoot a visual approach with 10 kt crosswind and the weather CAVOK. I am not kidding when I tell you that requiring them to shoot a visual approach struck fear in their hearts ... with good reason. Like this Asiana crew, it didnt compute that you needed to be a 1000 AGL at 3 miles and your sink rate should be 600-800 Ft/Min. But, after 5 years, they finally nailed me. I still had to sign my name to their training and sometimes if I just couldnt pass someone on a check, I had no choice but to fail them. I usually busted about 3-5 crews a year and the resistance against me built. I finally failed an extremely incompetent crew and it turned out he was the a high-ranking captain who was the Chief Line Check pilot on the fleet I was teaching on. I found out on my next monthly trip home that KAL was not going to renew my Visa. The crew I failed was given another check and continued a fly while talking about how unfair Captain so-and-so was.

Any of you Boeing glass-cockpit guys will know what I mean when I describe these events. I gave them a VOR approach with an 15 mile arc from the IAF. By the way, KAL dictated the profiles for all sessions and we just administered them. He requested two turns in holding at the IAF to get set up for the approach. When he finally got his nerve up, he requested Radar Vectors to final. He could have just said he was ready for the approach and I would have cleared him to the IAF and then Cleared for the approach and he could have selected Exit Hold and been on his way. He was already in LNAV/VNAV PATH. So, I gave him vectors to final with a 30 degree intercept. Of course, he failed to Extend the FAF and he couldnt understand why it would not intercept the LNAV magenta line when he punched LNAV and VNAV. He made three approaches and missed approaches before he figured out that his active waypoint was Hold at XYZ. Every time he punched LNAV, it would try to go back to the IAF ... just like it was supposed to do. Since it was a check, I was not allowed (by their own rules) to offer him any help. That was just one of about half dozen major errors I documented in his UNSAT paperwork. He also failed to put in ANY aileron on takeoff with a 30-knot direct crosswind (again, the weather was dictated by KAL).

This Asiana SFO accident makes me sick and while I am surprised there are not more, I expect that there will be many more of the same type accidents in the future unless some drastic steps are taken. They are already required to hire a certain percentage of expats to try to ingrain more flying expertise in them, but more likely, they will eventually be fired too. One of the best trainees I ever had was a Korean/American (he grew up and went to school in the USA) who flew C-141s in the USAF. When he got out, he moved back to Korea and got hired by KAL. I met him when I gave him some training and a check on the B-737 and of course, he breezed through the training. I give him annual PCs for a few years and he was always a good pilot. Then, he got involved with trying to start a pilots union and when they tired to enforce some sort of duty rigs on international flights, he was fired after being arrested and JAILED!

The Koreans are very very bright and smart so I was puzzled by their inability to fly an airplane well. They would show up on Day 1 of training (an hour before the scheduled briefing time, in a 3-piece suit, and shined shoes) with the entire contents of the FCOM and Flight Manual totally memorized. But, putting that information to actual use was many times impossible. Crosswind landings are also an unsolvable puzzle for most of them. I never did figure it out completely, but I think I did uncover a few clues. Here is my best guess. First off, their educational system emphasizes ROTE memorization from the first day of school as little kids. As you know, that is the lowest form of learning and they act like robots. They are also taught to NEVER challenge authority and in spite of the flight training heavily emphasizing CRM/CLR, it still exists either on the surface or very subtly. You just cant change 3000 years of culture.

The other thing that I think plays an important role is the fact that there is virtually NO civil aircraft flying in Korea. Its actually illegal to own a Cessna-152 and just go learn to fly. Ultra-lights and Powered Hang Gliders are Ok. I guess they dont trust the people to not start WW III by flying 35 miles north of Inchon into North Korea. But, they dont get the kids who grew up flying (and thinking for themselves) and hanging around airports. They do recruit some kids from college and send then to the US or Australia and get them their tickets. Generally, I had better experience with them than with the ex-Military pilots. This was a surprise to me as I spent years as a Naval Aviator flying fighters after getting my private in light airplanes. I would get experienced F-4, F-5, F-15, and F-16 pilots who were actually terrible pilots if they had to hand fly the airplane. What a shock!

Finally, I'll get off my box and talk about the total flight hours they claim. I do accept that there are a few talented and free-thinking pilots that I met and trained in Korea. Some are still in contact and I consider them friends. They were a joy! But, they were few and far between and certainly not the norm.

Actually, this is a worldwide problem involving automation and the auto-flight concept. Take one of these new first officers that got his ratings in the US or Australia and came to KAL or Asiana with 225 flight hours. After takeoff, in accordance with their SOP, he calls for the autopilot to be engaged after takeoff. How much actual flight time is that? Hardly one minute. Then he might fly for hours on the autopilot and finally disengage it (MAYBE?) below 800 ft after the gear was down, flaps extended and on airspeed (autothrottle). Then he might bring it in to land. Again, how much real flight time or real experience did he get. Minutes! Of course, on the 777 or 747, its the same only they get more inflated logbooks.

So, when I hear that a 10,000 hour Korean captain was vectored in for a 17-mile final and cleared for a visual approach in CAVOK weather, it raises the hair on the back of my neck.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:35 PM   #480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vectors2Final View Post
This may get the TLDR treatment, but its worth a read ... From the pilot boards.

Quote:
This was a surprise to me as I spent years as a Naval Aviator flying fighters after getting my private in light airplanes. I would get experienced F-4, F-5, F-15, and F-16 pilots who were actually terrible pilots if they had to hand fly the airplane.
I will say, when I was only a wingman, I never engaged autopilot or autothrottles, always was hand flying it. But then on workups for my flight lead, I learned engaging the autopilot gave a steadier platform for me wingman to fly off of. I will say my simple ability to stay on heading and altitude (+/- a few degrees, 50 or so feet) degraded if I was hand flying. But hell, shooting approaches is all manual unless the weather is really bad then I'll at least engage the autothrottles so I have one less thing to worry about.

Of course, that's all the AIRNAV part of the flight, the rest of tactical flying is all by hand.

But autopilot in a single piloted aircraft is necessary. I got too much crap going on. Especially when I'm digging through my bag for the new STAR or approach that ATC just gave me or some random ass waypoint that I don't have loaded into my system (I have to enter the lat/long).
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:39 PM   #481
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I will say, when I was only a wingman, I never engaged autopilot or autothrottles, always was hand flying it. But then on workups for my flight lead, I learned engaging the autopilot gave a steadier platform for me wingman to fly off of. I will say my simple ability to stay on heading and altitude (+/- a few degrees, 50 or so feet) degraded if I was hand flying. But hell, shooting approaches is all manual unless the weather is really bad then I'll at least engage the autothrottles so I have one less thing to worry about.

Of course, that's all the AIRNAV part of the flight, the rest of tactical flying is all by hand.

But autopilot in a single piloted aircraft is necessary. I got too much crap going on. Especially when I'm digging through my bag for the new STAR or approach that ATC just gave me or some random ass waypoint that I don't have loaded into my system (I have to enter the lat/long).

Go PAR!

I've worked with some Navy Controllers before. Good peeps, makes me wish I would have did that instead.


I'm sure autopilot is great, but your skills still need to be practiced "just in case".
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:40 PM   #482
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Originally Posted by Vectors2Final View Post
This may get the TLDR treatment, but its worth a read ... From the pilot boards.
Very interesting read, thanks.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:40 PM   #483
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Originally Posted by Vectors2Final View Post
This may get the TLDR treatment, but its worth a read ... From the pilot boards.
Sounds like the Korean airlines still have the cockpit cultural issues identified after Korean Air Cargo 6316 and 8509 and KA801.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:43 PM   #484
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Sounds like the Korean airlines still have the cockpit cultural issues identified after Korean Air Cargo 6316 and 8509 and KA801.
It's across the board, for obvious reasons.

I don't know if you've ever been to Korea, but if someone is senior to you, you give them the upmost respect. The problem is they can't speak up and tell a senior they are wrong, or they are about to make a mistake. It's even like that for students of a higher class. The respect is great, but its not fit for a cockpit atmosphere.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:44 PM   #485
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Originally Posted by jds View Post
Try flying in Colorado on a Dash-8 or CRJ or, worse yet, a B190 on a windy summer afternoon. I've had pilots announce "If you need the restroom, use it now, because you will not have a chance to get up during the flight."

I mean the little guys:

I refuse to fly turbo props anymore at all, with the exception being the Q400 if I'm in a pinch. I don't like walking on the plane seeing 2 pilots who look 17. I also don't like how they don't have the necessary power (compared to a jet) to get out of a small problem.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:50 PM   #486
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Go PAR!
If I'm not at the boat, I don't have any choice. That's my only precision approach.

And I have had to shoot a PAR down to 100 & 1/4 twice before. That wasn't fun.

The only time I can "couple" my autopilot for an approach is a MODE 1 behind the carrier. And I have never done one of those in my life. We're only allowed to do them if the weather is really really bad or we are having problems getting aboard.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:53 PM   #487
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Another article

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...airlines-crash

Quote:
Aircraft crew and emergency first responders have revealed they used knives, an axe and sheer muscle to free people trapped in the burning Boeing 777 that crashed at San Francisco airport.

The dramatic accounts on Monday helped to explain how 305 of the 307 people on board Asiana Airlines flight 214 survived when it smashed on to the runway on Saturday.

As smoke and fire engulfed the wreck pilots and attendants used knives to slice off seatbelts that tangled passengers. At least one knife came from in-flight cutlery; others were lobbed in by police officers on the runway.

A pilot used a cockpit "crash axe" to deflate an evacuation slide that had inflated inwards, pinning a colleague. Another pilot carried a wounded passenger to safety as jet fuel spurted.

The crew's bravery may help ease the sting if pilot error is deemed the cause of the crash.

Investigators said the plane was going "significantly below" its target landing speed of 137 knots and may have stalled just before its tail hit a sea wall separating the airport from the bay. There was discussion of whether "automation dependency" – in which over-reliance on computerisation can diminish flight skills – may have contributed.

The two dead were a pair of 16-year-old Chinese girls. One is suspected to have been killed by an emergency vehicle as she fled the plane.

Cabin manger Lee Yoon-hye said that just before impact she felt the plane trying to take off again, then a crash, followed by another "great big jolt" and shaking.

Lee, 40, said she rushed into the cockpit to check if the pilots were alive. When they said they were OK, she asked if she should evacuate the plane. They initially instructed her to wait, then said to evacuate.

"After that we followed our training and began yelling 'Emergency evacuation!' and proceeded to evacuate the plane," Lee told a news conference.


Link to video: San Francisco plane crash
While a pilot used an axe to free the pinned attedant, Lee helped evacuate passengers and moved towards the rear of the plane, where there was the most damage and severest injuries. Many of the mostly Chinese passengers appeared to hesitate.

"They were doing other things. I yelled at them to hurry outside, 'Go! Go! Go that way!'" Lee said.

Three appeared stuck in their seats. Lee said she and another flight attendant helped free them. A pilot carried a woman unable to walk.

A second evacuation slide inflated inwards, trapping another attendant near flames. "I grabbed a knife passengers had eaten with from a cart and handed it to the co-pilot and he punctured it," Lee said. Only later at hospital did Lee realise she had broken her tailbone.

First responders speaking at a separate press conference described chaotic, dramatic scenes as they raced to the wreck. "Adrenaline was flowing and I had to keep reminding my driver, 'If we don't get there we won't be able to help anybody,'" said fire Lieutenant Christine Emmons.

Firefighters sprayed foam and found a flight attendant and several injured passengers at the back of the plane. "We were running out of time. The smoke was getting thicker and thicker," said fire Lieutenant Dave Monteverdi.

The fire crew were astonished to discover a police officer, Jim Cunningham, inside the plane helping the evacuation without protective gear. He and a colleague had been among the first at the scene. After throwing knives to crew members aboard he went in himself. "I didn't think about it. I just knew people were trapped in there. I just thought, 'I'm kind of a tough guy, I can hold my breath if there's a lot of smoke,'" Cunningham said.

Police Lieutenant Gaertano Caltagirone, commander of the airport police, also entered and asked if everyone was evacuated. "Hold on," Cunningham replied, and ran back to check. He re-emerged and said: "They're all out, they're all out."

The bodies of Wang Linjia and Ye Mengyuan were both found outside the plane. The one furthest from the wreckage – authorities did not say who – had injuries consistent with being run over.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:57 PM   #488
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If I'm not at the boat, I don't have any choice. That's my only precision approach.

And I have had to shoot a PAR down to 100 & 1/4 twice before. That wasn't fun.

The only time I can "couple" my autopilot for an approach is a MODE 1 behind the carrier. And I have never done one of those in my life. We're only allowed to do them if the weather is really really bad or we are having problems getting aboard.
I've done some PARs below mins, but in a Korean blizzard, the pilot didn't have a choice. They were back from a DMZ surveillance trip and fuel was getting low, the whole peninsula was getting blasted. I got him down safely, but he had to go around three times before hand. I kept him to threshold and he told me he couldn't see anything until he was on the ground. even then, he took quite awhile to find his parking spot.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:04 PM   #489
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Damn, Jim Cunningham goin' hard in the paint. Would buy him a beer.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:06 PM   #490
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Originally Posted by Vectors2Final View Post
It's across the board, for obvious reasons.

I don't know if you've ever been to Korea, but if someone is senior to you, you give them the upmost respect. The problem is they can't speak up and tell a senior they are wrong, or they are about to make a mistake. It's even like that for students of a higher class. The respect is great, but its not fit for a cockpit atmosphere.
Probably isn't helped when you get a lot of ex-military guys in the captain's seat if the juniors are civvies.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:22 PM   #491
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Originally Posted by cwb124 View Post
I refuse to fly turbo props anymore at all, with the exception being the Q400 if I'm in a pinch. I don't like walking on the plane seeing 2 pilots who look 17. I also don't like how they don't have the necessary power (compared to a jet) to get out of a small problem.
You don't really know much about the industry or airplanes, do you?
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:22 PM   #492
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"Many of the mostly Chinese passengers appeared to hesitate."

Oh, is this the gate?
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:23 PM   #493
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Originally Posted by Vectors2Final View Post
This may get the TLDR treatment, but its worth a read ... From the pilot boards.
I ran into a guy who did the same thing in India on the 737NG. His story was almost identical. Kids would get sent out to US, Canada or Australia to get primary flight training and with about 250 hours they would come home and were assigned to the 737. They would go through a class and his job was to essentially do IOE with them. He said that he would turn off the flight director and they could not even keep the airplane level. That's insane!
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:23 PM   #494
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This is interesting, as the stories I have of PIA officers (who were almost all ex PAF guys) are quite the opposite with respect to the training and in cockpit behavior.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:24 PM   #495
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You don't really know much about the industry or airplanes, do you?


I was waiting for someone who knew their **** to step in here.

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Old 07-09-2013, 06:27 PM   #496
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I was waiting for someone who knew their **** to step in here.

Too easy.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:32 PM   #497
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Probably isn't helped when you get a lot of ex-military guys in the captain's seat if the juniors are civvies.
Sure, that makes plenty of sense. Koreans are stubborn in their ways, so it has been a challange getting that to work. That's why they were forced to hire people from other contries to mitigate that seniority deal, and provide their own with actual flying experience.



Which reminds me, I've taken the ICN-SFO or ICN-LAX flight about eight times. The next time I'm on that flight, I'm going to be thinking about this incident. Not that I'll be scared, but that in the event of an instrument failure both on the plane or on the ground, I'll hope the pilot is competent enough to perform the visual if possible.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:39 PM   #498
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The NTSB is giving another daily brief now. Details will be posted as I can get them.

Quote:
On Jul 9th 2013 the NTSB reported in their third press conference based on pilot interviews, that at 500 feet AGL the PAPIs were showing three red one white and the pilot began to pull back on the yoke to reduce rate of descent assuming the autothrottles would maintain the speed set to 137 knots. A lateral deviation developed taking the attention of the crew. Descending through 200 feet all PAPIs were red and the speed had decayed into the red/black marked range, the crew realised the autothrottles were not maintaining the target speed, at that point the autothrottles started to move the levers forward. There were three pilots in the cockpit, the captain under supervision was pilot flying, the training captain was pilot monitoring, the relief first officer was occupying the observer seat, the relief captain was in the cabin at the time of the landing. The autothrottle switches were found in the armed position post accident, it is not yet clear in what mode the autothrottles were and whether autothrottles were engaged or not. Two flight attendants in the aft cabin were ejected from the aircraft during the accident sequence and were later found up and aside of the runway with injuries. At least one of the escape slides inflated inside the cabin.
Pilot in the cabin resting.... Phhewwww.

Last edited by Vectors2Final; 07-09-2013 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:55 PM   #499
Counterfit
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Member#: 124254
Join Date: Aug 2006
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Rhode Island
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2006 06 SGM Slowbaru
"The Scoobinator"

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"Ejected from the aircraft during the accident sequence"

That usually doesn't end well.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:55 PM   #500
richy_21
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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2005 got muuuuu?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb124 View Post
I refuse to fly turbo props anymore at all, with the exception being the Q400 if I'm in a pinch. I don't like walking on the plane seeing 2 pilots who look 17. I also don't like how they don't have the necessary power (compared to a jet) to get out of a small problem.
Actually they help ATC out more than the jets. Plus we can jam them all in on final. Just had a king air B190 earlier today. As for the age, you probably shouldn't try to get a tower visit; or any aviation visit if that bother you
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