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Old 07-09-2013, 09:52 PM   #526
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Originally Posted by rogue View Post
"As we make our final approach into San Francisco International, please make sure you are seated with your seat belt securely fastened, your tray table and seat back in the fully upright and locked position, and your personal items stowed. If you think we're kidding about all this, look to your left. I swear to GOD I will crash this plane if you don't settle down back there!!"
This^^ is the way I was going to go with it, possibly with a passenger asking "Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?".
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:41 PM   #527
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Originally Posted by Indocti Discant View Post
I know that an armed door, slide opens outward etc but wondering if there is a flaw in this design that if the door doesn't open outwards completely, will the slide inflate on the inside as it can't go outside?

Thats on a hinged door (I don't know the proper terms for these), and the 777 has ones that kinda open to the side. You can see they're built into the floor somehow:
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:59 PM   #528
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Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu View Post
You don't really know much about the industry or airplanes, do you?
Sure do. Father was a pilot for American for 30 years. He'll never step foot on a turbo prop either. But that's pretty irrelevant. Why is it that any discussions revolving around airplanes turn into people comparing e-dick sizes? Never understood the ego trips people take with this stuff.

Besides, I spent 9 years living in a small town serviced ONLY by Dash-8s and Saab 340s jumping to PHL or PIT. Don't remember enjoying any of those flights, and the flight crew always looked like they were barely out of high school. Not to mention the seats are probably the most uncomfortable seats in the history of commercial flight.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:06 PM   #529
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So a question, why wasn't the plane freaking out since it had more than enough sensors to know it wasn't on energy and was about to meet the ground at an unacceptable decent rate? I had assumed that planes this new had alarms that went off if you start to get out side an easily recoverable performance envelope given the elevation of the plane above the ground? Basically Death Valley and the Dead Sea are the only places on earth where they would have been in a recoverable position for the preceding several seconds at least.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:08 PM   #530
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Edit: I'm going to research the claim about a couple of the pilots being ejected. Seems unbelieveable...

Last edited by CatfaceType-R; 07-09-2013 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:08 PM   #531
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Intredastimg.... Yikes!

Quote:
Korean MLTM Aviation Act

Chapter X – Penal Provisions

Article 156 (Offense Causing Danger in Aviation)
Any person who damages or destroys an airfield, airfield facilities or navigation safety facilities or causes any danger in aviation in any other way, shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than two years. <Amended by Act No. 5794, Feb. 5, 1999>

Article 157 (Offense Causing Danger in Flight)
(1) Any person who crashes, overthrows or destroys an aircraft in flight, shall be punished by the death penalty, imprisonment for life or for not less than five years.
(2) Any person who crashes, overthrows or destroys the aircraft in flight in committing the offense as prescribed in Article 156, shall also be punished by the punishment as referred to in paragraph (1).
Article 158 (Crime against Death or Injury by Causing of Danger to Aircraft in Flight)
Any person who caused the death of another person or injury by committing the crime as prescribed in Article 157, shall be punished by the death penalty, or imprisonment for life or imprisonment for not less than seven years.

Article 159 (Attempted Criminal)
Any person who attempted offenses as prescribed in Articles 156 and 157 (1), shall be punished.

Article 160 (Offense against Danger Causing by Negligence in Aviation)
(1) Any person who damages or destroys by negligence an aircraft, airfield, airfield facilities or navigation safety facilities, or causes any danger in aviation by other ways, or crashes or overthrows the aircraft in flight, shall be punished by imprisonment or without prison labor for not more than one year, or by a fine not exceeding twenty million won. <Amended by Act No. 4647, Dec. 27, 1993; Act No. 5794, Feb. 5, 1999>
(2) If a person commits the offense as referred to in paragraph (1) by any malpractice or severe negligence, he shall be punished by imprisonment or without prison labor for not more than three years, or by a fine not exceeding fifty million won.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:16 PM   #532
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Intredastimg.... Yikes!
This may only apply in South Korea and may actually have more to do with airfield readiness for military operations than punishing people for crashing. May, I have nothing to support that. That said if I shared a boarder with North Korea and had been in a legal state of war for more than 50 years I might be paranoid about civilian aircraft screwing up runway facilities, even accidentally. Just a thought.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:19 PM   #533
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Originally Posted by etothen View Post
This may only apply in South Korea and may actually have more to do with airfield readiness for military operations than punishing people for crashing. May, I have nothing to support that. That said if I shared a boarder with North Korea and had been in a legal state of war for more than 50 years I might be paranoid about civilian aircraft screwing up runway facilities, even accidentally. Just a thought.
Maybe. I can't say for sure, but they don't even allow people to own airplanes(as far as I know and that's why they send people over here for experience). Pretty strict law over there.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:31 PM   #534
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Another article.

Quote:
THE flight crew of the Asiana Airlines Boeing 777 which crash-landed at San Francisco Airport couldn't see the runway just seconds earlier because the plane was so far out of position, US investigators say.

They also confirmed that the training pilot on board was on his first flight as an instructor.
The crash killed two Chinese students and left more than 180 people injured, but given the heavy impact and extent of the damage experts have said it was fortunate the death toll was not higher.
Three of Asiana Flight 214's four pilots have now been interviewed. National Transportation Safety Board chair Deborah Hersman, who is leading the probe, outlined the flight's frantic final seconds before the crash.

"The pilot that was sitting in the jump seat, the relief first officer, identified that he could not see the runway.

"The nose was pitched up, so he couldn't see the runway."

The instructor pilot then told the control tower that at 500 feet he realised they were too low.

"He went to push the throttles forward, but he stated that the other pilot had already pushed the throttles forward," Hersman said.

The fourth pilot - the relief Captain - was in the cabin and not in the cockpit at the time of the crash.
Investigators previously said that just 1.5 seconds before the plane smashed into the ground, a member of the flight crew asked to abort the landing, though it was too late to take such action.

The aircraft clipped a seawall and went skidding out of control, breaking up and quickly bursting into flames.
The pilot at the controls - named by Asiana as Lee Kang-Kuk - was about halfway through his training for the Boeing 777, but had led 29 flights to San Francisco on Boeing 747s in the past, according to the airline.

"To complete initial operating experience for Asiana, he's required to have 20 flights and 60 flight hours. He had completed 10 legs, and about 35 hours flying the 777," Hersman said.
However, his trainer - who told US investigators he had a total of 13,000 flying hours, 3,000 of which were in the Boeing 777 - had not flown as a trainer pilot before.


Read more: http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news...#ixzz2YbsQkPCe
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:36 PM   #535
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Damn as more and more information is leaked, I just end up feeling bad for the flight crew. With the media attacking them and digging deeper and deeper into the log time :/
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:49 PM   #536
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Intredastimg.... Yikes!
Why do I get the feeling that will only make the problem worse?
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:50 PM   #537
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Originally Posted by kgb4187 View Post
Thats on a hinged door (I don't know the proper terms for these), and the 777 has ones that kinda open to the side. You can see they're built into the floor somehow:
you are correct. But I was referring to the 737-900 doors.

here are the 777 doors.

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Old 07-10-2013, 03:01 AM   #538
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Before I pass out for the night.... Here's a pretty damn good break down of the briefing.



Quote:
(Numbers in parentheses refer to time in video. All emphasis mine.)


Partial Paraphrased Transcript of Third Media Briefing by NTSB Chairman Deborah Hersman on July 9, 2013



(3:13) POSITION OF SWITCHES AS CONFIRMED BY INVESTIGATORS

Flight Director was ON for the right seat, OFF for the left seat
Auto-throttles armed.
All 3 fire handles extended - Both engines and APU
Flaps were set to 30.
Speed-brake lever was down, indicates that it was not being used.



(5:49) INITIAL IMPACT LOCATION

When you get down to the sea wall you can identify where the first strikes took place.
First the main landing gear impacted the seawall and then the tail.


(8.55) FLIGHT CREW INTERVIEWS

3 of the 4 flight crew members interviews completed.
Information from the interviews has not yet been confirmed with flight data/CVR


(9:55) PERSONNEL IN COCKPIT AT TIME OF CRASH

3 pilots in the cockpit at time of the crash; 1 pilot seated in the cabin.
Pilot Flying seated in the left seat.
Instructor Pilot seated in the right seat.
Relief First Officer sitting in the jump seat.
Relief Captain sitting in the cabin.


(10:46) FLIGHT CREW BACKGROUND AND EXPERIENCE

#1 PILOT FLYING [Captain Lee Kang Kuk]
9,700 total flight time, 5,000 hours as Pilot In Command.
This was his initial operating experience in the 777.
To complete initial operating experience for Asiana he is required to have 20 flights and 60 flight hours.
He had completed 10 legs and about 35 hours flying the 777; was about half way through his initial operating experience on the 777.
He was hired in 1994.
He did his initial training in Florida.
Is rated in the 737, 747, A320 and 777.
Was ground school instructor and a SIM instructor for the A320/321
He was a captain on the A320 from 2005-2013.
Immediately prior to his initial operating experience on the 777, he was a captain on the A320.


#2 INSTRUCTOR PILOT (Captain Lee Jung Min)
The instructor pilot was seated in the right seat and is also a captain.
He reported total flight time as 13,000 hours with an estimated 3,000 in the 777.
Total Pilot In Command time was about 10,000 hours.
He had been in the Korean Air Force for 10 years
He reported this was his first trip as an instructor pilot.
The instructor pilot stated he was the PIC and sitting in the right seat.
This was the first time that he and the pilot he was instructing had flown together.

#3 RELIEF FIRST OFFICER
The Relief First Officer who was sitting in the jump seat reported he had 4,600 hours flight time.
He estimated he had 900-1000 flying in the 777.
He flew F-5s and F-16s in the Korean Air Force.
He had flown to San Francisco 5 or 6 times as the Pilot Monitoring.

#4 RELIEF PILOT
4th pilot was the Relief Captain and was not in the cockpit for the approach.


(14:55) OBSERVATIONS FROM FLIGHT CREW (Not yet corroborated by CVR)

Approach asked them to maintain 180 knots until they were about 5 miles out.
This aircraft has a max of 160 knots to put down the landing flaps for final configuration.
The Relief First Officer sitting in the jump seat identified that could not see the runway or the PAPI lights from his sitting position and that the nose was pitched up so he could not see the runway.
Instructor Pilot stated that to best of recollection that they were slightly high when they passed 4000 feet, they set vertical speed mode at about 1500 feet per minute
At about 500 feet he realized that they were low; he reported seeing three red and one white on the PAPI. He told the pilot to pull back.
They had set speed at 137 knots and he assumed that the auto-throttles were maintaining speed.
Between 500 feet and 200 feet they had a lateral deviation and they were low. They were trying to correct at that point.
At 200 feet he noticed the four PAPIs were red, the airspeed was in the hatched(sp?) area on the Speed Tape and he recognized that the auto-throtles were not maintaining speed and he established a Go-Around Attitude.
He went to push the throttles forward but stated the other pilot had already pushed the throttles forward.

DETAILS ON THE AUTO-THROTTLES (27:11)

Auto-throttles documented in the armed position.

Q: Does 'armed' mean engaged?
A: Armed means that they are available to be engaged but depending on what mode is used, we really need to understand that a little bit better, to understand how they were used and what the expectation was for the auto-throttles.
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Old 07-10-2013, 06:51 AM   #539
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Thats on a hinged door (I don't know the proper terms for these), and the 777 has ones that kinda open to the side. You can see they're built into the floor somehow:
slides are contained in a small cube shape in the floor. this is so that if you ditch or something and don' want to open a specific door for whatever reason, you can still extract the slide, toss it out another door and inflate to use as a raft, for example.
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Old 07-10-2013, 09:41 AM   #540
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Sure do. Father was a pilot for American for 30 years. He'll never step foot on a turbo prop either. But that's pretty irrelevant. Why is it that any discussions revolving around airplanes turn into people comparing e-dick sizes? Never understood the ego trips people take with this stuff.

Besides, I spent 9 years living in a small town serviced ONLY by Dash-8s and Saab 340s jumping to PHL or PIT. Don't remember enjoying any of those flights, and the flight crew always looked like they were barely out of high school. Not to mention the seats are probably the most uncomfortable seats in the history of commercial flight.
It's not a dick measuring contest, it's that your fear if turboprops just doesn't make any damn sense.

Turboprops really aren't a whole lot difference than turbofans. In a turbofan there are just more blades, they're housed in a cowling, and you can't adjust the pitch of them. If I'm going to get into a situation where I need more power, quickly I'd rather be in a turboprop vs a jet. Turbo fans have a pretty good delay from the time you push the thrust levers forward and you actually get any thrust out of it. Throw in the more predictable stall characteristics of a straight wing, I'd say you are probably more likely to extract yourself from a crappy situation in a prop.

Ill give you the fact that they are be as comfortable. If you're worried about young pilots, most turboprops have gone away in the past 10 years. Ill let you guess what the young pilots are flying now.
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Old 07-10-2013, 09:59 AM   #541
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Not two weeks ago I asked someone at the FAA (in a completely unofficial capacity) if there were any aircraft makes/models he would avoid getting on if given the choice. He didn't hesitate to name names.
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:00 AM   #542
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Originally Posted by Asinine View Post
Not two weeks ago I asked someone at the FAA (in a completely unofficial capacity) if there were any aircraft makes/models he would avoid getting on if given the choice. He didn't hesitate to name names.
and then...
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:02 AM   #543
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and then...
That's all I'm comfortable saying. But his answer doesn't actually change my normal flying behavior since I rarely seen these AC listed.
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:03 AM   #544
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That's all I'm comfortable saying. But his answer doesn't actually change my normal flying behavior--though it may if my trips were different.
That was pretty evident. What do you do anyway? You seem to be full of aviation-related tidbits lately.
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:07 AM   #545
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That's all I'm comfortable saying. But his answer doesn't actually change my normal flying behavior since I rarely seen these AC listed.
Well thanks for helping the rest of us out
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:08 AM   #546
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That was pretty evident. What do you do anyway? You seem to be full of aviation-related tidbits lately.
"Government work." (US DOT stuff)
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:20 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by Asinine View Post
That's all I'm comfortable saying. But his answer doesn't actually change my normal flying behavior since I rarely seen these AC listed.
Why bring up the conversation at all if you're going to be clam up with any details? You're like the bitch on facebook who posts "Oh what a terrible day!!" And then waits for everyone to give her attention and ask her what's wrong.
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:24 AM   #548
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Why bring up the conversation at all if you're going to be clam up with any details? You're like the bitch on facebook who posts "Oh what a terrible day!!" And then waits for everyone to give her attention and ask her what's wrong.
Well, you and Emu were arguing about the merits of different aircraft. I thought it pertinent that someone who does safety evals on AC had an opinion about the matter, and might be of passing interest to some. However, since it was in a completely unofficial capacity, and he doesn't speak for the FAA, I felt it prudent to not anything more specific, lest it be given undue weight.

That being said, you sound like you're having a terrible day. What's wrong, cupcake?
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:29 AM   #549
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On an unrelated note...

In the last few months we've had a few aviation disasters, a couple serious rail accidents/disasters, a bridge collapse, and a chemical plant disaster... and not too long ago a couple of serious cruise ship incidents.

We're due for a good mining disaster. Or has China had one recently that I'm just overlooking?
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:33 AM   #550
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Speaking of West Virginia, is BacDoc ever coming back?
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