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Old 07-10-2013, 09:32 PM   #576
Vectors2Final
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigWrecKs View Post
Are pilots relying too much on automation now?
Welcome to the world of "push button pilots". Hand flying is becoming a dying breed, believe it or not. Instruments that were designed for landings in unfavorable weather conditions are now used as the staple for flight, even in clear blue and twenty-two. Lets not get started on autopilot. That's a battle that will not be won with fuel economy at stake.
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:38 PM   #577
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Originally Posted by Thumper23 View Post
You know, I think that's one of the only Dale Brown books I haven't read.

Flight of the Old Dog, yep, love it
Oh yeaaaaaaaaaaaah....

storming heaven was my first dale brown novel. It had nothing to do with mclanahan I believe. I picked it up because of the cover showing a 747 barreling towards the capitol. I always thought it odd that something like that never happened until 9/11, whereupon my first reaction was "it finally happened"
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:47 PM   #578
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Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu View Post
It's not a dick measuring contest, it's that your fear if turboprops just doesn't make any damn sense.

Turboprops really aren't a whole lot difference than turbofans. In a turbofan there are just more blades, they're housed in a cowling, and you can't adjust the pitch of them. If I'm going to get into a situation where I need more power, quickly I'd rather be in a turboprop vs a jet. Turbo fans have a pretty good delay from the time you push the thrust levers forward and you actually get any thrust out of it. Throw in the more predictable stall characteristics of a straight wing, I'd say you are probably more likely to extract yourself from a crappy situation in a prop.

Ill give you the fact that they are be as comfortable. If you're worried about young pilots, most turboprops have gone away in the past 10 years. Ill let you guess what the young pilots are flying now.
i would worry more about the economics that drive the business practices at tier 2/3 (turboprop) carriers as the primary safety issue rather than the type of equipment they operate.
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:49 PM   #579
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Originally Posted by dorikin View Post
i would worry more about the economics that drive the business practices at tier 2/3 (turboprop) carriers as the primary safety issue rather than the type of equipment they operate.
could you expand plz?
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:56 PM   #580
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So....12 people from Greenville SC killed in AK plane crashes this year.
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:59 PM   #581
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Originally Posted by OriginalSin View Post
So....12 people from Greenville SC killed in AK plane crashes this year.
I though it was 9 or 10 on the recent one. Was there an earlier crash up there that had Upstate people in it?
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:01 PM   #582
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Might as well turn this thread into the official aviation mishap thread.
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:01 PM   #583
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Yeah two a month ago too.

Killing carolinians left and right up there!
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:14 PM   #584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveUlysses View Post
Depends on airplane configuration and model but generally they are mounted to the door.
sorry, posted that from my phone and mixed up the message. here's the long version- if the door is opened while armed, the slide is integrated with the floor during door opening so that it is extracted from its container (in the door on my present equipment) and left hanging in the open doorway. it should inflate itself as the door opens but failing that there are manual inflation handles. if it's not prudent to open a particular emergency exit then you can pull the slide pouch out of the door and deploy it elsewhere.

overwing exit and emer cabin exits slides are stored in the fuselage near the trailing edge of the wing and in the floor respectively

Last edited by dorikin; 07-11-2013 at 06:45 AM.
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:17 PM   #585
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Originally Posted by Indocti Discant View Post
could you expand plz?
basically regional carriers being whipsawed to out-walmart each other for capacity purchase agreement contracts and everything that comes with that. cutting costs by any means necessary, commuting pilots on food stamps, duty day/rest issues, pressure to do everything cheaper in every department at every level to stay competitive.


(thanks frank lorenzo)
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Old 07-11-2013, 12:00 AM   #586
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Perhaps its best suited for a PM, but what do you think of the ATP requirement for 121 pilots now? (the final rule on it all just came out today)

Now that regionals can't hire pilots with wet commercials, there is a small argument that wages and quality of life will slightly be better under the new ruling. An ATP rated pilot is certainly worth some amount more than a 250 hour wonder, but if that's how it will play out, who knows.
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Old 07-11-2013, 12:08 AM   #587
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Some rule changes for you pilot folk.

Quote:
(Reuters) - The United States will increase the flight experience required of pilots on U.S. airlines, a long-awaited move not related to the crash last weekend of an Asiana Airlines plane in San Francisco.

The new rules, which will take effect later this week or next week once they are published in the Federal Register, stem in part from a plane crash near Buffalo in 2009 that killed 50 people, the Federal Aviation Administration said on Wednesday.

First officers, or co-pilots, will now need Airline Transport Pilot certificates to take control of U.S. commercial jetliners or cargo planes. The certificates are earned with 1,500 hours of total flight time. Previously, a co-pilot needed only a commercial certificate, requiring 250 hours.

Captains would still need at least 1,500 hours of flight time but now 1,000 hours would have to be logged as a co-pilot on a commercial carrier. Previously, those hours could be earned in flight school or military training.

Bob Coffman, an American Airlines captain who is also chairman of its pilots union's government affairs committee, said the additional requirement of the ATP certificate would ensure that co-pilots have a variety of flying experiences.

"In this day ... where we are more and more dependent on having two competent pilots at the controls, it does not make much sense for one of the pilots to be significantly less qualified than the other pilot," Coffman said.

The new regulations stem in part from a crash in February 2009 in which a Bombardier DHC-8-400 plunged into a snow-covered neighborhood as it neared Buffalo, New York, killing 49 people on board and one person on the ground. The crash of the Colgan Air flight, operating as Continental Connection flight 3407, raised questions about pilot training.

In that accident, investigators said, the pilot failed to respond appropriately to a "stick-shaker" warning of a potential stall from low air speed - similar conditions to those under investigation in the Saturday crash of Asiana Airlines Flight 214 in San Francisco, which killed two people and injured more than 180.

The new FAA rules would not apply to the pilots of the Asiana flight, however, since they are not pilots for a U.S. airline.

FAA spokesman Les Dorr said there was no link between the pilot qualification rules and Saturday's Asiana plane crash in San Francisco.

"This ruling has been in the works for a couple of years now," Dorr said.

The FAA has drawn criticism from the National Transportation Safety Board for taking years to develop the rules.

"The NTSB notes that human factors concerns associated with low airspeed do not require more than 6 years of study for a solution to be implemented," the NTSB said in a 2010 report on the Colgan accident.

Rep. Rick Larsen, the ranking member on the House aviation subcommittee, said the long period in adopting the rules was a concern. "It's fair to be somewhat critical of the FAA for taking a long time to get these rules up running," he said.
From Roooooyyyyeeeeoouuurrrss

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...anyNews&rpc=43
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Old 07-11-2013, 12:12 AM   #588
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Originally Posted by OriginalSin View Post
So....12 people from Greenville SC killed in AK plane crashes this year.
10.

345
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Old 07-11-2013, 01:23 AM   #589
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Originally Posted by BigWrecKs View Post
Are pilots relying too much on automation now?
Clicking automation, aka autothrottles, and then never watching your speed again is insane. Every pilot should be scanning airspeed all the time, especially on landing.

Just like you need to still check your speed when you think you have cruise control on when driving.
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Old 07-11-2013, 01:31 AM   #590
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Originally Posted by shaw169 View Post
Just like you need to still check your speed when you think you have cruise control on when driving.
Cruise control is so I can text and drive on the highway
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Old 07-11-2013, 03:23 AM   #591
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Originally Posted by 340Duster View Post

Cruise control is so I can text and drive on the highway
Or take a piss in your RV's bathroom.
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:42 AM   #592
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Originally Posted by BigWrecKs View Post
Are pilots relying too much on automation now?
bit of a pandora's box. pilots are relying more on automation that in previous gen aircraft but i don't know if that should necessarily be taken pejoratively, it's simply a new reality. there's no denying that hands and feet flying is a perishable skill and you have to make a concerted effort to stay sharp (since there is no hand-flying in cruise due to RVSM). any overseas pilot flying 3 trips a month isn't going to fly the prettiest full procedure raw data NDB approach.

having the full magic on allows you to sit back and monitor the big picture with less workload having to be directed at maneuvering the airplane. imagine being the non flying pilot with someone who has decided to hand-bomb into a high density airport. their faculties are now directed strictly manipulating the controls while you're monitoring to make sure they're making level offs and staying between the lines. now you have to spin heading/alt bugs for them, read back clearances, run descent/in rng flows/checklists, get an updated ATIS, answer datalinks from company about your gate, liaise with the back end with the cabin snags they have written up, run the radar because of the cells in the arrival corridor... oh here's a runway change from atc, now you get to re-program the fms, re-brief the flying pilot, etc, etc. easy for something to get missed. you have a responsibility to the people in the back to decide what the safest way is to get the job done and hand-flying all over creation isn't necessarily the best answer.

most accidents today stem from a lack of understanding of what the automation is doing. a couple of pages ago i made reference to some "traps" where the autothrust in certain situations could lead you down the garden path and it's interesting to me that the autothrottle issue is something the investigators are looking to unpack with the asiana crash. as a pilot you need to understand the short and long term goals of what the airplane needs to do and then further interpret whether or not the automation is a help or a hinderance. if you put the pilots of air france 447 into a cessna 172 i bet they would have been able to recover no problem. throw in multiple control laws and different procedures for similar situations (stall recovery in alt law vs being able to pull full back in normal law with alpha prot), a lack of tactile feedback, independent controls and it's a bad recipe for a tired inexperienced dude to deal with. automation is a great tool but, like any big power tool, can be dangerous if mishandled and must be wielded properly
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Old 07-11-2013, 08:05 AM   #593
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Originally Posted by Globerunner513 View Post
Perhaps its best suited for a PM, but what do you think of the ATP requirement for 121 pilots now? (the final rule on it all just came out today)

Now that regionals can't hire pilots with wet commercials, there is a small argument that wages and quality of life will slightly be better under the new ruling. An ATP rated pilot is certainly worth some amount more than a 250 hour wonder, but if that's how it will play out, who knows.
as a canadian, i'm just an outside observer with no skin in the game but frankly, i'm for it. up in the great white north there is nobody sitting in an aircraft over 12,5k lbs without an ATPL/IATRA and a type rating. there's also nobody making less than $35k in the right seat of a dash (and nobody making less than $27k in the right seat of a 1900 for that matter). i was aghast when i started flying corporate and heard that FOs in business jets in the US didn't need type ratings. no offense to anyone but a 250hr wonder is not who i'd want beside me or flying my family in the back when a stove packs up going in/out of aspen

do i think that the rule change in the US will change the pay scales at tier 2/3 operators for the better?... i sincerely hope so because the salaries in the states are just criminal if you ask me but the pay issue seems like a bit of a toothpaste back into the tube situation to me. the bean counters in mgmt always seem to find a new burning platform to keep costs low.

the new rules mean it'll be a tougher slog for up and comers but i think that at the end of the day newbies, the people they will share a cockpit with, and paying passengers will be better served by the added experience and maturity they bring to the operation. the hardest thing i do these days is decide which meal to have in cruise but every now and again i'll still reach into my old dog bag of tricks from when i dragged floats around the bush or slid around on arctic ice/gravel.
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Old 07-11-2013, 08:11 AM   #594
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Originally Posted by Vectors2Final View Post
Welcome to the world of "push button pilots". Hand flying is becoming a dying breed, believe it or not. Instruments that were designed for landings in unfavorable weather conditions are now used as the staple for flight, even in clear blue and twenty-two. Lets not get started on autopilot. That's a battle that will not be won with fuel economy at stake.
just wondering- for someone on the scopes such as yourself, has technology been a help or a hinderance in being more effective/efficient at keeping airplanes from trading paint?
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Old 07-11-2013, 08:58 AM   #595
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Originally Posted by dudeondacouch View Post
didn't one of those go down in Alaska last night?
I didn't realize it killed two entire families in my town.

family of 4 and family of 5
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Old 07-11-2013, 11:59 AM   #596
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Originally Posted by Indocti Discant View Post
Check the 777 and 737 diagram I posted earlier.
Right, and I see that they're mounted into the doors. I'm not speaking for all models and configurations (some planes only have slides and some have raft/slides, depending on capacity and if they are used for intercontinental travel).

777 definitely mounts them to the door, same with 787.
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Old 07-11-2013, 12:15 PM   #597
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dorikin View Post

bit of a pandora's box. pilots are relying more on automation that in previous gen aircraft but i don't know if that should necessarily be taken pejoratively, it's simply a new reality. there's no denying that hands and feet flying is a perishable skill and you have to make a concerted effort to stay sharp (since there is no hand-flying in cruise due to RVSM). any overseas pilot flying 3 trips a month isn't going to fly the prettiest full procedure raw data NDB approach.

having the full magic on allows you to sit back and monitor the big picture with less workload having to be directed at maneuvering the airplane. imagine being the non flying pilot with someone who has decided to hand-bomb into a high density airport. their faculties are now directed strictly manipulating the controls while you're monitoring to make sure they're making level offs and staying between the lines. now you have to spin heading/alt bugs for them, read back clearances, run descent/in rng flows/checklists, get an updated ATIS, answer datalinks from company about your gate, liaise with the back end with the cabin snags they have written up, run the radar because of the cells in the arrival corridor... oh here's a runway change from atc, now you get to re-program the fms, re-brief the flying pilot, etc, etc. easy for something to get missed. you have a responsibility to the people in the back to decide what the safest way is to get the job done and hand-flying all over creation isn't necessarily the best answer.

most accidents today stem from a lack of understanding of what the automation is doing. a couple of pages ago i made reference to some "traps" where the autothrust in certain situations could lead you down the garden path and it's interesting to me that the autothrottle issue is something the investigators are looking to unpack with the asiana crash. as a pilot you need to understand the short and long term goals of what the airplane needs to do and then further interpret whether or not the automation is a help or a hinderance. if you put the pilots of air france 447 into a cessna 172 i bet they would have been able to recover no problem. throw in multiple control laws and different procedures for similar situations (stall recovery in alt law vs being able to pull full back in normal law with alpha prot), a lack of tactile feedback, independent controls and it's a bad recipe for a tired inexperienced dude to deal with. automation is a great tool but, like any big power tool, can be dangerous if mishandled and must be wielded properly
Great stuff. Thanks for the detailed post.

Perception from regular folks(such as myself) arent aware of the detailed operation going on in the cockpit. I think most people feel the right seat simply handles the radio and is on standby incase the pilot croaks in flight.

Gives me a whole new perception of whats going on up there.
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Old 07-11-2013, 12:16 PM   #598
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"the pilot flying reported that a flash of light occurred at 500 feet which temporarily blinded him"

How about, "I ****ed up, and I am very sorry."?

I don't buy that the temporary blindness at 500 feet caused pilot error, sorry.


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Originally Posted by Counterfit View Post
Anyone else ever read Tom Clancy's Debt of Honor?
The pilot did on his 5 hours of rest apparently.
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Old 07-11-2013, 12:18 PM   #599
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Originally Posted by semaj View Post
"the pilot flying reported that a flash of light occurred at 500 feet which temporarily blinded him"

How about, "I ****ed up, and I am very sorry."?

I don't buy that the temporary blindness at 500 feet caused pilot error, sorry.

The pilot did on his 5 hours of rest apparently.
This bothers me too. If that wrre the case, why didnt he immediately say "**** i cant see anymore. Take the controls!" Or simply abort the landing? 500ft is better than seawall.

To me, it is a bogus excuse.
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Old 07-11-2013, 12:31 PM   #600
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Haven't there been some cases (not crashes) of pilots being hit with people dicking around with higher intensity laser pointer devices?
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