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Old 07-11-2013, 02:38 PM   #626
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Look at the last twenty years of aviation mishaps. How many were caused by ATC versus by pilot error or inability to follow ATC direction? How many near disasters have been prevented by ATC?
You know the similarity between pilots and ATC?
If the pilot screws up, the pilot dies. If ATC screws up, the pilot dies.


Old joke
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Old 07-11-2013, 02:39 PM   #627
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Um, no he didn't.
he didn't affirm that the question was if tech was or was not making his job tougher?

or the answer that it is making it tougher?

I'm so confused.




because I meant to say that he assumed the question as that (work tougher or not).. and then explained how tech was making it easier, but prob going to increase the load.
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Old 07-11-2013, 02:40 PM   #628
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Quote:
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Again, the question asked, at its core, was, is air traffic control impeding the aircrafts' ability to separate.
yeah well the question i asked him was partially rhetorical and in response to his assertion that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vectors2Final View Post
Hand flying is becoming a dying breed.... Instruments that were designed for landings in unfavorable weather conditions are now used as the staple for flight, even in clear blue and twenty-two. Lets not get started on autopilot. That's a battle that will not be won with fuel economy at stake.
^which reads a bit like the romanticization of hand flying a mailwing or a dc2 on a range approach into idlewild from the days when sex was safe and flying was dangerous and that flipping the autopilot on coupled to lnav/vnav is for lesser mortals somehow. i just spent a good amount of realestate on the last page addressing the notion that pilots are "too reliant on automation" and that is the context in which i asked the question to him to hold up a mirror to see if he thinks technology has led to a similar erosion of core competencies on the ATC side or if it's actually helping him get the job done.
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Old 07-11-2013, 02:40 PM   #629
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Originally Posted by Thumper23 View Post
You know the similarity between pilots and ATC?
If the pilot screws up, the pilot dies. If ATC screws up, the pilot dies.


Old joke
well what if ATC vectors the pilot into the tower?

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Old 07-11-2013, 02:41 PM   #630
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well what if ATC vectors the pilot into the tower?

What makes you think I'm not aiming for it?
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Old 07-11-2013, 02:41 PM   #631
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What makes you think I'm not aiming for it?
negative ghostrider the pattern is full.
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Old 07-11-2013, 02:42 PM   #632
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negative ghostrider the pattern is full.
I want some butts!
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Old 07-11-2013, 02:44 PM   #633
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Originally Posted by Indocti Discant View Post
he didn't affirm that the question was if tech was or was not making his job tougher?

or the answer that it is making it tougher?

I'm so confused.




because I meant to say that he assumed the question as that (work tougher or not).. and then explained how tech was making it easier, but prob going to increase the load.
I thought you thought he thought that technology was making ATC's job tougher. Now I think that you think that I thought it was making the pilot's... wait...

F*** it. I'm out.

<engages autothrottle>
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Old 07-11-2013, 02:44 PM   #634
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I want some butts!
flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog**** out of hong kong.
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Old 07-11-2013, 02:48 PM   #635
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While it makes our job easier, it just allows for more traffic, which makes it tougher on the pilot and the controller. That's why in a lot the the higher density facilities they don't work a eight hour shift. There are some facilities that work six hour shifts, or even four to keep the mind fresh for the next guy.

In no way should it hinder core competence. If it does the controller would be shown the door before he or she even obtained the rating.
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Old 07-11-2013, 02:55 PM   #636
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Agreed. However, company policy (at Delta for example) is that with autothrottles engaged, you keep your hand on the power levers to make sure the system is responding and the levers are moving. There was a crash in Europe a while ago where they engaged autothrottles on climbout, one of the throttles jammed and the other went to full power to keep the airspeed up. The pilots had no idea what happened since neither of them were paying attention to the actually power levers and they departed the airplane and killed everyone.
at our operation the SOPs are hands on the levers and stick/yoke at least from the FAF inbound. what kind of airplane did they bail from? in the types i've flown with A/THR the AT would disengage if it sensed more than an 8% split between the thrust lever angles and you would get a "THROTTLE" aural warning.

there's a good CVR/FDR vid of the C5 crash in dover where the crew had an eng fail on takeoff. they secured it, brought it back around but at one point had all the levers back to idle, and then brought three levers (out of four) out of idle again but no one realized that they brought the dead engine thrust lever off the stop and left one good engine at idle. ended up bleeding all their speed off trying to stay aloft heavily loaded, configured with gear, flaps and using only 2/4 engines... don't want to spoil the ending for you:

keep an eye on the ASI as things progress (and the thrust lever positions as well as the engine N1 outputs after the throttle swap)
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Old 07-11-2013, 02:57 PM   #637
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As I follow the thread in the pilot boards, a lot of people who've worked for these airlines in Asia have chimed in. Here's another interesting one.


Quote:
I worked as an instructor in the Asiana simulator on the A320 and I know how Asiana will fix this problem:- they will forbid landing on ANY runway that does not have some electronic glideslope system and not allow ANY pilot to hand fly an approach, thus perpetuating the total lack of any basic flying skills in 95% of their pilots.

EVERY day in the sim I saw evidence of the following problem:- when the auto pilot is out or the automatics are not behaving as expected, a potential disaster ensues.

That is why I left, I tried my best, but got kicked in the teeth for it. They wont allow you to help them ............. what a shame.
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Old 07-11-2013, 03:03 PM   #638
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Also, another account of the view from the UAL flight holding short of the runway...

http://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/n...ts.html?page=1
Quote:
According to at least one pilot onboard, it was indeed a terribly unnerving situation for passengers and crew on United Airlines Flight 885 in the seconds, minutes and hours that followed the crash of Asiana Airlines Flight 214 late Saturday morning.
United (NYSE: UAL) Flight 885, bound nonstop for Osaka, Japan, was sitting at the end of active taxiway F adjacent to San Francisco International Airport Runway 28L as Asiana Flight 214 descended across San Francisco Bay and crashed just short of the runway. The pilots and many of the passengers abroad the giant United Boeing 747-400 had a bird's-eye view of the Asiana widebody plane as it struck the seawall and then began to disintegrate and skid down Runway 28L — just a few hundred feet from where United Flight 885 was situated.
Though the media to date hasn't talked much about what impact the Asiana crash had on eyewitnesses aboard United Flight 885, a first officer on the United plane subsequently penned a detailed account of the crash as seen from the United cockpit, as well as the situation inside the United Flight 885 passenger cabin in the minutes and hours after the Asiana crash, that appeared on the Professional Pilots Rumor Network. PPRN is described as a website for "reporting points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots."
A United Airlines spokeswoman said the airline "can't confirm or comment" on the account from the first officer on United Flight 885.
What follows is that report from a United Flight 885 first officer, who described himself as a witness to the Asiana Flight 214 accident:
We had taxied to hold short of runway 28L at SFO on taxiway F, and were waiting to rectify a HAZMAT cargo issue as well as our final weights before we could run our before takeoff checklist and depart. As we waited on taxiway F heading East, just prior to the perpendicular holding area, all three pilots took notice of the Asiana 777 on short final. I noticed the aircraft looked low on glidepath and had a very high deck angle compared to what seemed 'normal.'

I then noticed at the apparent descent rate and closure to the runway environment the aircraft looked as though it was going to impact the approach lights mounted on piers in the SF Bay. The aircraft made a fairly drastic-looking pull up in the last few feet and it appeared and sounded as if they had applied maximum thrust. However the descent path they were on continued and the thrust applied didn't appear to come soon enough to prevent impact. The tail cone and empennage of the 777 impacted the bulkhead seawall and departed the airplane and the main landing gear sheared off instantly. This created a long debris field along the arrival end of 28L, mostly along the right side of 28L.
We saw the fuselage, largely intact, slide down the runway and out of view of our cockpit. We heard much confusion and quick instructions from SFO Tower and a few moments later heard an aircraft go around over the runway 28 complex. We realized within a few moments that we were apparently unharmed so I got on the PA and instructed everyone to remain seated and that we were safe.
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Old 07-11-2013, 03:05 PM   #639
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Originally Posted by dorikin View Post
at our operation the SOPs are hands on the levers and stick/yoke at least from the FAF inbound. what kind of airplane did they bail from? in the types i've flown with A/THR the AT would disengage if it sensed more than an 8% split between the thrust lever angles and you would get a "THROTTLE" aural warning.

there's a good CVR/FDR vid of the C5 crash in dover where the crew had an eng fail on takeoff. they secured it, brought it back around but at one point had all the levers back to idle, and then brought three levers (out of four) out of idle again but no one realized that they brought the dead engine thrust lever off the stop and left one good engine at idle. ended up bleeding all their speed off trying to stay aloft heavily loaded, configured with gear, flaps and using only 2/4 engines... don't want to spoil the ending for you:

keep an eye on the ASI as things progress (and the thrust lever positions as well as the engine N1 outputs after the throttle swap)
C-5 Galaxy crash at Dover - YouTube
Weird - around 2:03 somebody starts to move the #3 throttle up and then changes his mind...
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Old 07-11-2013, 03:06 PM   #640
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Originally Posted by Vectors2Final View Post
Also, another account of the view from the UAL flight holding short of the runway...

http://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/n...ts.html?page=1
Quote:
Flight 885, bound nonstop for Osaka, Japan, was sitting at the end of active taxiway F adjacent to San Francisco International Airport Runway 28L as Asiana Flight 214 descended across San Francisco Bay and crashed just short of the runway. The pilots and many of the passengers abroad the giant United Boeing 747-400 had a bird's-eye view of the Asiana widebody plane as it struck the seawall and then began to disintegrate and skid down Runway 28L just a few hundred feet from where United Flight 885 was situated.
:wat:
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Old 07-11-2013, 03:12 PM   #641
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That's why in a lot the the higher density facilities they don't work a eight hour shift. There are some facilities that work six hour shifts, or even four to keep the mind fresh for the next guy.
seen this before, V2F? LGA tower cab ops

Last edited by dorikin; 07-11-2013 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 07-11-2013, 03:17 PM   #642
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Originally Posted by Asinine View Post
I thought you thought he thought that technology was making ATC's job tougher. Now I think that you think that I thought it was making the pilot's... wait...

F*** it. I'm out.

<engages autothrottle>
are they engaged or armed?
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Old 07-11-2013, 03:37 PM   #643
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wait, you're a controller in austin? Can you give me a super sweet-ass behind the scenes airport tour?

Probably not
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Old 07-11-2013, 03:57 PM   #644
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I work at Hood Army Airfield right now. We may be taking over Killeen ARAC and Tower because of sequestration. The DoD runs t Killeen Regional and they can't afford to close. The ARAC has everything between Dallas and Houston just about and pretty much Austin as well.

I just live in Austin because Killeen sucks a bag of dicks.


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seen this before, V2F? LGA tower cab ops
Never, but that was an amazing read!

It makes me feel pretty good about my job.

Last edited by Vectors2Final; 07-11-2013 at 04:02 PM.
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Old 07-11-2013, 06:10 PM   #645
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Originally Posted by dorikin View Post

at our operation the SOPs are hands on the levers and stick/yoke at least from the FAF inbound. what kind of airplane did they bail from? in the types i've flown with A/THR the AT would disengage if it sensed more than an 8% split between the thrust lever angles and you would get a "THROTTLE" aural warning.

there's a good CVR/FDR vid of the C5 crash in dover where the crew had an eng fail on takeoff. they secured it, brought it back around but at one point had all the levers back to idle, and then brought three levers (out of four) out of idle again but no one realized that they brought the dead engine thrust lever off the stop and left one good engine at idle. ended up bleeding all their speed off trying to stay aloft heavily loaded, configured with gear, flaps and using only 2/4 engines... don't want to spoil the ending for you:

keep an eye on the ASI as things progress (and the thrust lever positions as well as the engine N1 outputs after the throttle swap)
Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI5xTmmPbsY
It was an Airbus. A310 I think. This was in the early 90's.

I've watched that video before. Just because there are more people in the cockpit doesn't mean anyone had an idea what's going. Same thing happened in a P-3 a few years ago. They spun in and luckily recovered at 80' but totaled it because they snapped the wing spar during to recovery.
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Old 07-11-2013, 06:15 PM   #646
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A friend of mine in Korea was a controller with me. He got a qualified non-select for the Army WOFF. He spoke perfect English, Spanish and French. Had a bachelors in aeronautics and he had his multiengine rating with a we thousand hours under his belt. He go a condition release and was going to fly jets, but they were full up and he is now in the Navy as a P-3 driver.
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Old 07-11-2013, 06:41 PM   #647
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I'm starting to like Deborah Hersman in unnatural ways.
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Old 07-11-2013, 06:48 PM   #648
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P-3 driver.
Swoon.

When you were in Korea, did you ever work with any Dash 7s?

... have we talked about this before?
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:03 PM   #649
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Swoon.

When you were in Korea, did you ever work with any Dash 7s?

... have we talked about this before?
Sure have. That was the aircraft I was talking about a few pages back, where I explained having to bring them in below minimums. I may have some pictures, although I'd need to dig for them. In pretty sure we have, although that seems to happen with just about every other aviation thread that pops up.

I work with some Dash 7s and 8s in Afghanistan as well, although the Dash 7 was not in the same capacity as it was in Korea
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:12 PM   #650
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Some notes from the NTSB brief today I took from the pilot boards. I'll have a full account a little later.

Quote:
These are my own notes. While I was typing as I listened, I am neither stenographer nor pilot. If someone posts better notes, I'll happily delete this post, or respond to corrections. I've consolidated material from the opening statement and answers to press questions.

From the CVR:
There is a sink rate comment before the 500 foot auto callout
Over time there are verbal glide path comments: first above, then on, then below

timestamps were not provided for the above, but were provided or relative order given for this final set (where I is the time of impact)
I-35 automated 500 foot callout
shortly thereafter crew member calls landing checklist complete
I-18 200 auto altitude callout
I-9 100 auto altitude callout
very shortly thereafter is the first comment regarding speed
I-3 a call for Go-around
I-1.5 second call for Go-around by a different crew member

Regarding the FDR:

220 of the 1400 parameters have been validated so far.

Engines and flight control services appear to have responded as expected to control inputs.

No anomalous behavior of the autopilot, flight director, and autothrottles observed.

She specifically stated that the fuel tanks were not breached, and that it was not a fuel-fed fire. She re-iterated a previous comment giving the near engine as the starting point, with an oil tank rupture providing the initial fire fuel.

Personal note: because the discussion here has shown intense interest in modes, I listened carefully, and believe no Flight recorder based mode information was given today at all. (yesterday's presser mentioned that multiple A/P and A/T modes were seen in the last 2.5 minutes, but today did not even revisit that).
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