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Old 07-14-2013, 04:02 AM   #751
KestrelSi
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My two biggest complaints are that, first, 911 is transferring calls to SFO when they are trying to deal with the situation. It's a waste of time. Second, 911 isn't properly doing triage. Almost hanging up on someone on the tarmac (who apparently wasn't talked to by anyone fire/medical/police by at least 11:59).

It's obvious there were problems because 60 people went missing right after the event. And by missing I mean they were wandering around the terminal until the press found them. That's forgivable because the situation wasn't expected, but the bay area needs better unification of thier communications infrastructure.

In Chicago for example city and county 911 lines are merged (they can dispatch fire, police, and medical) and the emergency management center is located in the same building for both city events (courts, sports events, ect.) and county locations (airports, ports, highways).

http://www.emsworld.com/article/1032...first-response

I may be wrong but that seems like a much smarter way of doing things.
The challenge here that Chicago doesn't face is that SFO is part of the city and county of San Francisco, but is physically located in a different county (San Mateo). The on-site airport fire (and police) are SF, but ambulance service to the airport is provided by San Mateo county.
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Old 07-14-2013, 10:03 AM   #752
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Originally Posted by matt30 View Post
My two biggest complaints are that, first, 911 is transferring calls to SFO when they are trying to deal with the situation. It's a waste of time. Second, 911 isn't properly doing triage. Almost hanging up on someone on the tarmac (who apparently wasn't talked to by anyone fire/medical/police by at least 11:59).

It's obvious there were problems because 60 people went missing right after the event. And by missing I mean they were wandering around the terminal until the press found them. That's forgivable because the situation wasn't expected, but the bay area needs better unification of thier communications infrastructure.

In Chicago for example city and county 911 lines are merged (they can dispatch fire, police, and medical) and the emergency management center is located in the same building for both city events (courts, sports events, ect.) and county locations (airports, ports, highways).

http://www.emsworld.com/article/1032...first-response

I may be wrong but that seems like a much smarter way of doing things.
Again- 911. Does. Not. Do. Triage. I don't know if I can make this clearer to you. It is not their job. They are generally not medically trained beyond the very basics. The only thing even close to it that they do is set the priority of the response, but that's usually stupid basic to the point of medical issue = emergency, first aid = more casual response. That doesn't even apply in this situation.

What you're bringing up has to do with incident command. It's hard to manage one during a drill, much less during an actual incident where you have a hundred adrenaline charged accident junkies running around trying to play superman, passengers that think its perfectly OK to wander around a busy tarmac to get to the terminal, not to mention the language barrier since this was an international flight, or the multiple agencies who responded which may or may not be on the same page.

So basically, my point is: if you need medical attention during an emergency situation, grab someone working the incident. 911 cannot send an ambulance to a certain point at the incident itself, because they are not part of the command structure. People on scene are, and they will be much more able to help you.
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Old 07-14-2013, 10:08 AM   #753
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Where did I make up things that you said? Whats the distance from the edge of the runway (where the crash was) to the entrance to the hospital? If they went 80 (which is illegal, since they can only go 15 over the 55 posted speed limit, not to mention going on crowded Potrero) it would still take over 15 minutes from the terminal.
Wrong. They cannot legally go over the posted speed limit. Lights and sirens force traffic out of your way and give you the ability to stop traffic in an intersection so you can pass through against the light, but that's all. If you're responding to an incident at extra legal speeds and you hit and kill someone, you can go to jail for manslaughter.
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Old 07-14-2013, 12:10 PM   #754
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Wrong. They cannot legally go over the posted speed limit. Lights and sirens force traffic out of your way and give you the ability to stop traffic in an intersection so you can pass through against the light, but that's all. If you're responding to an incident at extra legal speeds and you hit and kill someone, you can go to jail for manslaughter.
He's right, in California an ambulance can legally exceed the speed limit by 15 mph over the speed limit while exercising due regard for others.
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Old 07-14-2013, 12:14 PM   #755
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14 mins. If an ambulance was standing by on the scene moment of the crash and grabbed the first passenger off the flight it should have been there at 1150 or so.

Now complicate this with the fact that the first ambulance was not on scene immediately, then has to figure who gets loaded where and the 1230 timeframe is not that unreasonable.
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Old 07-14-2013, 12:19 PM   #756
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He's right, in California an ambulance can legally exceed the speed limit by 15 mph over the speed limit while exercising due regard for others.
I stand corrected. I took my EVOC training a few years ago and this was a big part of it- one entire module was the story of a gentleman doing a long stint in prison for violating the speed limit and causing a death. They must have a different version for CA.
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:45 PM   #757
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14 mins. If an ambulance was standing by on the scene moment of the crash and grabbed the first passenger off the flight it should have been there at 1150 or so.

Now complicate this with the fact that the first ambulance was not on scene immediately, then has to figure who gets loaded where and the 1230 timeframe is not that unreasonable.
Don't forget the additional time of going through customs and immigration.
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Old 07-14-2013, 04:03 PM   #758
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Still arguing about who's the best volunteer firefighter?

Cool.
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Old 07-14-2013, 05:54 PM   #759
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In Chicago for example city and county 911 lines are merged (they can dispatch fire, police, and medical)
Huh, I just assumed 911 was like that everywhere. It doesn't matter where you are in the greater Vancouver area, or if you are on cell or landline, or if you need police/fire/ambulance, your call goes to 1 location here.
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Old 07-14-2013, 06:31 PM   #760
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Huh, I just assumed 911 was like that everywhere. It doesn't matter where you are in the greater Vancouver area, or if you are on cell or landline, or if you need police/fire/ambulance, your call goes to 1 location here.
E-Comm has a good setup, especially with the police being in the same place. Calgary is a little weird. We answer 911 for all of the city, and a couple surrounding counties. We do fire dispatch for those same areas. Ambulance-wise, we cover from the BC border to just east of Calgary, and from about 130km north of Calgary to just north of the US border. Soon that will expand further north, east, and south, so that we're doing from about 2/3 of the way to Edmonton all the way to the US, not including Lethbridge. Police-wise, we only handle Calgary - the RCMP are dispatched by Red Deer.

(Another way Calgary is different is that it's a fire/EMS call evaluator that picks up the original 911 call. In most cities, it's a police calltaker first. So people get confused when we have to transfer them off to police if they have a police complaint.)

So, there are situations where we take the 911 call and the incident directly (if it's fire or EMS or city police in our own region), or we transfer the call to another agency (if it's RCMP in our own 911 region), or we take the call in from another 911 center (if it's ambulance for an area we don't answer 911 for).

Like I said earlier, compounding the situation in California is the fact that CHP answers for cell phones statewide but if someone calls in the same incident in the same location from a landline phone, another agency, such as LA OCD, or whatever agency handles SFO's landline calls, will get the call.

As "universal" as it seems, 911 doesn't play by the same rules continent-wide. A lot of areas don't even have 911 yet (for example most of Newfoundland) and get dispatched by seven-digit phone calls which may or may not just ring at somebody's house.

Emergency response in general differs from place to place. For example, people were talking earlier about ambulances being legally able to go a certain speed over the limit. In Alberta, use of lights and siren allows any emergency vehicle to contravene any part of the Traffic Safety Act providing it is safe to do so. There's nothing to indicate at what speed they can travel, but it's considered a foregone conclusion that if you get in a crash while using lights and siren, it was clearly not safe to be doing so. I could go 160 (k) if I felt it would help the situation, but it would be my ass in the sling if I mowed down a bus full of kids.
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Old 07-14-2013, 06:56 PM   #761
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E-Comm has a good setup, especially with the police being in the same place. Calgary is a little weird.
Yeah E-Comm is pretty good. Calgary is only a little weird?

Quote:
For example, people were talking earlier about ambulances being legally able to go a certain speed over the limit. In Alberta, use of lights and siren allows any emergency vehicle to contravene any part of the Traffic Safety Act providing it is safe to do so. There's nothing to indicate at what speed they can travel, but it's considered a foregone conclusion that if you get in a crash while using lights and siren, it was clearly not safe to be doing so. I could go 160 (k) if I felt it would help the situation, but it would be my ass in the sling if I mowed down a bus full of kids.
BC is like that too.
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Old 07-14-2013, 07:24 PM   #762
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Originally Posted by upnygimp View Post
Again- 911. Does. Not. Do. Triage. I don't know if I can make this clearer to you. It is not their job. They are generally not medically trained beyond the very basics. The only thing even close to it that they do is set the priority of the response, but that's usually stupid basic to the point of medical issue = emergency, first aid = more casual response. That doesn't even apply in this situation.

What you're bringing up has to do with incident command. It's hard to manage one during a drill, much less during an actual incident where you have a hundred adrenaline charged accident junkies running around trying to play superman, passengers that think its perfectly OK to wander around a busy tarmac to get to the terminal, not to mention the language barrier since this was an international flight, or the multiple agencies who responded which may or may not be on the same page.

So basically, my point is: if you need medical attention during an emergency situation, grab someone working the incident. 911 cannot send an ambulance to a certain point at the incident itself, because they are not part of the command structure. People on scene are, and they will be much more able to help you.
You're confused. I'm talking about phone triage, not injury triage. A 911 operator should follow a set of rules or guidelines to make sure, as in this case, they don't almost miss a call from someone out on the tarmac who can actually give useful information to the people on the ground and quickly pass over those callers who cannot provide such information. You keep wanting to talk about on the ground emergency management when, since my first post, I been talking about the 911 procedures and how calls should be handled.
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Old 07-14-2013, 07:26 PM   #763
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Where did I make up things that you said?
Pst...

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Originally Posted by kgb4187 View Post
And you want the fire response team to wait for all bodies to be accounted for before deploying apparatuses in case one gets run over after being covered up, perhaps by a different truck?

Derp, indeed.
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Old 07-14-2013, 07:58 PM   #764
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So asking a question is making up things you said? Riiiiight... perhaps you don't remember typing out "It might help. You know . . . actually listening to the people on the runway calling . . . so you know where they are and don't run them over. Might help just a little." so I'll presume you were drunk.
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Old 07-24-2013, 02:13 PM   #765
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Oh, copyright, you crazy set of mixed-up laws? Is there anything you can't censor?

The DMCA system is at it again, being beaten like a rented mule in order to perform a duty for which it was never intended.

Local San Francisco television news station KTVU has embarked on a novel use of copyright law to cover up embarrassing footage. It has been issuing takedown notices to YouTube for videos showing its anchor literally reading fake names of pilots involved in the recent airline crash at San Francisco International Airport.

While it's true that KTVU owns the rights to the footage of its anchor maintaining a straight face while reading a list of bad jokes, it insists this has nothing to do with flexing its copyright muscle in order to cover up its bad judgment.

While many of the videos of the segment were still live on Google-owned YouTube, the reason why the Fox affiliate has been demanding their removal doesn’t concern copyright.

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“The accidental mistake we made was insensitive and offensive. By now, most people have seen it. At this point, continuing to show the video is also insensitive and offensive, especially to the many in our Asian community who were offended. Consistent with our apology, we are carrying through on our responsibility to minimize the thoughtless repetition of the video by others,”
the station’s general manager and vice president, Tom Raponi, told Mediabistro today.

First things first. If you're not taking it down for copyright reasons, then why the hell are you using the DMCA takedown system? Noah H. Webster, it's got "COPYRIGHT" right in the frickin' name! Wouldn't a polite note to the YouTube account holders stating the above accomplish the same thing (i.e., a minimal level of compliance)?

As for the arguing it should be removed because "most people have seen it," I don't even know where to go with that. Continuing to show the video isn't "offensive." Only the original act is. Pretending this has something to do with making amends for an earlier error is just kind of sad, especially when the station manager tries to drag viewers into his Shame Circle with "thoughtless repetition of the video by others."

Also: "accidental mistakes" are the best kind. Also, the only kind.

The station manager wants to censor a video while claiming he isn't censoring it, as though yanking it from YouTube with admittedly bogus DCMA takedowns is just part of being a good, sensitive citizen. But by doing this, Raponi is only making it worse. If he just could have left it alone for a few more weeks, something else would have come along to take its place in the publi— OMG! Someone in England had a baby!

But now he's blown it.

This is the internet. No one puts embarrassment in the corner.
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201...-debacle.shtml
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Old 07-24-2013, 02:32 PM   #766
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What a dick!
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Old 12-01-2013, 02:49 AM   #767
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Interesting pictures from the wreckage removal, including shots of the interior.
http://www.nycaviation.com/2013/07/p.../#.UprhnXaO3D0
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Old 12-01-2013, 08:31 AM   #768
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What a mess.
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Old 12-01-2013, 11:09 AM   #769
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Interesting pictures from the wreckage removal, including shots of the interior.
http://www.nycaviation.com/2013/07/p.../#.UprhnXaO3D0
Look at all the chinks in the fuselage!
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Old 12-01-2013, 02:00 PM   #770
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Look at all the chinks in the fuselage!
Wow45
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Old 12-01-2013, 02:05 PM   #771
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Look at all the chinks in the fuselage!
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Old 12-01-2013, 02:09 PM   #772
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Old 12-01-2013, 03:19 PM   #773
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Look at all the chinks in the fuselage!
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Old 12-01-2013, 03:42 PM   #774
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Look at all the chinks in the fuselage!
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Old 12-01-2013, 03:53 PM   #775
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That even crossed your line??
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