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Old 07-11-2013, 05:11 PM   #1
garzdos
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OMGHi2U Oh crap! A Good Mobil 1 5W/30 UOA!!!

Next pigs will fly, unicorns will make a comeback and gas will be $0.99/gallon.

Yes, lower mileage, but I don't put a ton of miles on my car.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6nl...it?usp=sharing
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Old 07-11-2013, 05:33 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garzdos View Post
Next pigs will fly, unicorns will make a comeback and gas will be $0.99/gallon.

Yes, lower mileage, but I don't put a ton of miles on my car.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6nl...it?usp=sharing
In only 2,500 miles, this oil has sheared to a 20 grade and you're saying the uoa is good? Ok. In a 3,750 mile oci, Mobil1 5W-20 would probably have less shear percentage wise.

And you really shouldn't try to judge an oil on a single uoa or even on several consecutive uoa's.

Quote:
Firstly, it is important to realize that you get what you pay for. The most common forms of UOA are limited in their scope. It is a case of if you pay more you get more. So my comments here relate primarily to the the cornerstone of those appearing on BITOG
Secondly, it is easy to assume that by carrying out a UOA you will be able to determine how quickly the engine is wearing out. As well, if you change lubricant Brands you will be able to compare the wear metal uptake results and then make a balanced best lubricant choice to make your engine last longer.

Sadly that logic is seriously flawed.

Single pass (random) UOAs will provide some information regarding wear metals but unless you have a history of your engine's performance up to around 1 million miles the results are simply that – UOA results! As an example a limit of 150ppm of Iron is a reality after say 100k it means the lubricant should be changed and all is well. But what is the situation if you have 150ppm of Iron at 5k? Where would you look what would or could you do? So UOAs are really a diagnostic tool – one of many!
The other parts of the UOA Report will be much more valuable to you; it will tell you about the CONDITION of the lubricant and its suitability for further use. This will enable you to get the maximum safe use from the lubricant saving a valuable resource in the process.

With some knowledge and experience you may be able to determine if you have a fuel or cooling system problem – and you will be able to see the level of potentially damaging contaminants such as silicates, soot and etc. You may be able to monitor the levels of additive depletion too. In a low use engine the TBN (if taken) will seriously indicate if the lubricant is still able to minimise corrosion and its effects and this will help to prevent cam lobe pitting etc.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis/

-Dennis

Last edited by bluesubie; 07-11-2013 at 06:17 PM.
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Old 07-11-2013, 05:42 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post

In only 2,500 miles, this oil has sheared to a 20 grade and you're saying the uoa is good? Ok. In a 3,750 mile oci, Mobil1 5W-20 would probably have less shear percentage wise.

And you really shouldn't try to judge an oil on a single uoa or even on several consecutive uoa's.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis/

-Dennis
My understanding is it is still performing within 30 weight standards.

I'm not making an overall judgement on the oil and I've been here long enough to know most are freaked out over this oil and recommend Rotella T6 (and I frequent this section and know your feelings on the subject :-)). But in my conversations with Blackstone my understanding is that it is still performing within 30 weight specs. I'm not an expert and don't profess to be however.
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Old 07-11-2013, 05:56 PM   #4
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Blackstone expects the oil to shear, as most Resource Conserving oils do. The minimum viscosity for a 30 grade oil is 9.30 cSt's at 100C. Your used oil is 9.26 cSt's at 100C so it is a 20 grade.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/

Flashpoint looks good but it should with only 2,500 miles. What was the previous uoa on? Dealer Subaru oil?

-Dennis

Last edited by bluesubie; 07-11-2013 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 07-11-2013, 06:41 PM   #5
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lol..all the talk about how bad the reg mobil one 5w/30 and people still use it
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Old 07-11-2013, 06:44 PM   #6
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So, to sum it up, thread title should be changed... Because that M1 5W30 UOA is not particularly good...

For some perspective, I mixed 1.5 qts of M1 0W30 to 4 qts of M1 0W20 and ran it 6,700 miles in my 2011 Forester 2.5X (n/a FB25 engine). It came out at 9.18 cSt@100C with flashpoint at 420F.
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:29 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post
Blackstone expects the oil to shear, as most Resource Conserving oils do. The minimum viscosity for a 30 grade oil is 9.30 cSt's at 100C. Your used oil is 9.26 cSt's at 100C so it is a 20 grade.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/

Flashpoint looks good but it should with only 2,500 miles. What was the previous uoa on? Dealer Subaru oil?

-Dennis
Yes, Subaru oil.
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:53 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post
Blackstone expects the oil to shear, as most Resource Conserving oils do. The minimum viscosity for a 30 grade oil is 9.30 cSt's at 100C. Your used oil is 9.26 cSt's at 100C so it is a 20 grade.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/
Just on the cusp of 20 weight but I see what you're saying.

I didn't expect something amazing from the oil or the UOA but it wasn't the catastrophe I expected with all I hear around here.

I had multiple email correspondence with Blackstone after receiving the UOA and even expressed my concerns about my particular engine type, shearing and such (I had similar correspondence after the first UOA) and the continually say they gave not seen issues with viscosity and the turbo:
Me:
"I was wondering if you might be able to explain what number I would want to look at to assess any shearing down of my oil sample. I hear a lot of people say that Mobil 1 5W/30 shears down to more like a 20 weight."

Blackstone
"Thanks for the question. You'd look at the viscosity readings. Anything lighter than 55.0 SUS (For Mobil 1 5W/30) would likely indicate that the oil had sheared some... though it's also possible that a low viscosity could be caused by fuel dilution or other contamination, so if you have a low viscosity, don't immediately blame the oil without first looking for contamination in case the oil was diluted by something else.

In the case of your first sample, I suspect the factory had probably used a lighter oil.

With that said, I know there are a lot of people on the internet that get all fired up about low viscosity readings and how the oil is breaking down and not protecting the engine and so on and so forth. I won't tell you what to do, but let me just say this: if wear metals looked great in my report, there was no fuel or water found, but the viscosity was a little low, that'd be the least of my concerns. As long as wear is low, a low viscosity reading probably isn't an issue.
"Keep in mind our specs are for used engine oil, so we we take into consideration some slight variance from the factory specs.

Me:
"Thanks for the quick reply! If that's the case them my Mobil 1 5w/30 sample having a SUS of 56.7 would mean its still performing as a 30 weight, correct (since I have no dilution)?"

Blackstone:
"Exactly! As long as your results fall within the "should be" range, then your oil is reading in the proper range for the oil you're using. Those should be values will change depending on whatever oil you're using."

Me:
"And the "should be" range is NOT assuming or factoring in shearing? I ask because I hear resource conserving oils are "supposed" to shear to increase fuel economy. Sorry to be a pain but I don't want to be assuming anything. If an oil stays within it's "should be" range than that means it us still performing at it's listed/ should be viscosity? Is that correct?"

Blackstone:
"No problem at all! Keep in mind our specs are for used engine oil, so we we take into consideration some slight variance from the factory specs.
For example, Mobil 1's website says that their 5W/30 oil should have a cSt viscosity reading of 11.0 (see: http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/..._1_5W-30.aspx#)
Technically, since your cSt viscosity read 9.26, it has sheared a little from the factory specs, but this is still what we could consider acceptable variance for used oil. It's still within the acceptable range for a 5W/30, so for our purposes we wouldn't really say it sheared, though technically, it has sheared a little."

Blackstone;
"In the end, it's most important to remember that the viscosity can read whatever it wants to as long as the engine is wearing well. :-)"

Me:
"Normally I would think very little about it except for the turbo on my engine being lubricated by engine oil."

Blackstone:
"Now I see your concern. We haven't seen any evidence where a thin viscosity caused turbo bearing damage, though that can be a tough thing to prove because there are many other things that can go wrong."

Me:
"But despite this, if I understand, my sample's viscosity at 2500 miles (approx) is still working at 30 weight?"

Blackstone:
"Precisely!"
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Old 07-11-2013, 08:21 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
So, to sum it up, thread title should be changed... Because that M1 5W30 UOA is not particularly good...

For some perspective, I mixed 1.5 qts of M1 0W30 to 4 qts of M1 0W20 and ran it 6,700 miles in my 2011 Forester 2.5X (n/a FB25 engine). It came out at 9.18 cSt@100C with flashpoint at 420F.
Thread title was a little "tongue in cheek"
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Old 07-11-2013, 08:53 PM   #10
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Certainly not trying to be pedantic and i'm all for debunking urban legends, but if anything this UOA confirms the issues with M1 5w30. As Dennis mentioned, if viscosity continues to degrade, the oil will be pretty worthless by 4 or 5k miles.
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Old 07-11-2013, 09:11 PM   #11
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Certainly not trying to be pedantic and i'm all for debunking urban legends, but if anything this UOA confirms the issues with M1 5w30. As Dennis mentioned, if viscosity continues to degrade, the oil will be pretty worthless by 4 or 5k miles.
But for me 2500 is the max I'd ever go anyway...I end up changing based on time and not mileage.

Also, not that I'd condone it, but I'd wonder what it would do the longer it went. I've seen other uoa's (even for T6 I think) that apparently degraded/sheared for a bit and then seemed to get better with time. Some speculated it appeared better as more crud accumulated in the oil giving it (artificially mind you) a increased viscosity.
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Old 07-11-2013, 09:56 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by garzdos View Post
But for me 2500 is the max I'd ever go anyway...I end up changing based on time and not mileage.
If you change your oil every 2500 miles, why even waste the money on M1? Might as well just use the budget no name dino oil from Autozone if you're going to just wind up dumping it that quickly.
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Old 07-11-2013, 10:41 PM   #13
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BS mentions that the factory could have used something other that 5W-30, but the first uoa is dealer fill and not factory fill. Correct? The viscosity is even lower on it, the Flashpoint is shot and the moly, zinc, and phosphorus is too low for factory fill.

You can have an oil that shears to a 20 grade with high fuel dilution and Blackstone will tell you to extend the interval.

It may very well be that Mobil1 5W-30 will work well for your application (which you haven't given any details, btw), but a $30 uoa with low wear numbers does not give you 100% certainty of how your engine is being protected, especially when the oil temporarily shears (even lower than shown in a uoa) and goes into boundary lubrication.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/states-of-lubrication/

The break-in wear numbers are lowering very nicely (and quickly) and lead is very low. Although, this type of uoa picks up wear particles of 5 microns or less so maybe you have bigger chunks of wear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garzdos
I didn't expect something amazing from the oil or the UOA but it wasn't the catastrophe I expected with all I hear around here.
Again, this is only one uoa so it doesn't really tell you a whole lot. There are actually very few uoa's posted on the API SN/GF5 version of M1 5W-30. If you do five consecutive uoa's on this oil and post them, you could be the first person in history to do so.

People keep saying that they will post consecutive uoa's on the same Resource Conserving oil, but they rarely do. Like the debate that I had with an engineer at iwsti. He kept telling me that nothing more that the Subaru 5W-30 is needed in a stock STI that doesn't see any track time and that he will do uoa's and post them, but he never posted again after our debate. Although, I'm not sure I would bother in your case with such low mileage.

I'm actually a fan of Mobil1's more robust oils, and have used the 0W-40 and High Mileage oils, but if I ran an SN/GF5 oil it would be Pennzoil Ultra 5W-30. No off the shelf oil can touch their low NOACK volatility numbers. Not that NOACK matters much in a 2,500 mile oci.

Dennis
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Old 07-12-2013, 12:18 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post
BS mentions that the factory could have used something other that 5W-30, but the first uoa is dealer fill and not factory fill. Correct? The viscosity is even lower on it, the Flashpoint is shot and the moly, zinc, and phosphorus is too low for factory fill.

You can have an oil that shears to a 20 grade with high fuel dilution and Blackstone will tell you to extend the interval.

It may very well be that Mobil1 5W-30 will work well for your application (which you haven't given any details, btw), but a $30 uoa with low wear numbers does not give you 100% certainty of how your engine is being protected, especially when the oil temporarily shears (even lower than shown in a uoa) and goes into boundary lubrication.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/states-of-lubrication/

The break-in wear numbers are lowering very nicely (and quickly) and lead is very low. Although, this type of uoa picks up wear particles of 5 microns or less so maybe you have bigger chunks of wear.

Again, this is only one uoa so it doesn't really tell you a whole lot. There are actually very few uoa's posted on the API SN/GF5 version of M1 5W-30. If you do five consecutive uoa's on this oil and post them, you could be the first person in history to do so.

People keep saying that they will post consecutive uoa's on the same Resource Conserving oil, but they rarely do. Like the debate that I had with an engineer at iwsti. He kept telling me that nothing more that the Subaru 5W-30 is needed in a stock STI that doesn't see any track time and that he will do uoa's and post them, but he never posted again after our debate. Although, I'm not sure I would bother in your case with such low mileage.

I'm actually a fan of Mobil1's more robust oils, and have used the 0W-40 and High Mileage oils, but if I ran an SN/GF5 oil it would be Pennzoil Ultra 5W-30. No off the shelf oil can touch their low NOACK volatility numbers. Not that NOACK matters much in a 2,500 mile oci.

Dennis
My application is not harsh. I only put about 4800-5000 miles per year on my cars. City and bits of freeway driving. I get on it now and then but I don't think I've ever gotten over 5900 rpm for datalog. Running an OTS 91 octane Cobb tune via Accessport.

I may have misspoken before. The first uoa was Mobil 1 5w30 but it was the GF4 (I didn't realize it until I was educating myself more on all this and realized it). Not dealer fill - I don't want them touching my car unless absolutely necessary. Always ran (and continue to use) Subaru oil filter. The second/current uoa is Mobil 1 5w/30 GF5. So order was:

#1: 1500 miles on factory fill (brand new car) - no uoa - filled with GF4 Mobil 1
#2: about 1500 miles on GF4 Mobil 1 - first uoa (which if I can get to it I can post but you see the results on the current uoa - the only difference would be to see Blackstone's comments) -filled with GF5 Mobil 1
#3: about 2500 on GF5 Mobil 1 - current uoa


Again, I change it at around 6 months of time and that's why the mileage is low.
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Old 07-12-2013, 12:19 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by steverx05 View Post

If you change your oil every 2500 miles, why even waste the money on M1? Might as well just use the budget no name dino oil from Autozone if you're going to just wind up dumping it that quickly.
Like I've said, I change it based on time as I don't put a lot of miles on my car - about 4800-5000 per year. So it's no biggie to me to spend that twice per year.
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:43 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garzdos View Post
Like I've said, I change it based on time as I don't put a lot of miles on my car - about 4800-5000 per year. So it's no biggie to me to spend that twice per year.
You would be better to run some M1 0w40 either before your warranty is up or just do it after. The 0w40 is much better than their 5w30 which is being proven here a lot more lately.

Dennis, what about the op running some M1 10w30 high mileage oil?
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Old 07-12-2013, 07:14 AM   #17
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The Mobil 1 0W-40 meets ACEA A3 and VW/AUDI 502 standards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by subi400 View Post
You would be better to run some M1 0w40 either before your warranty is up or just do it after. The 0w40 is much better than their 5w30 which is being proven here a lot more lately.
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Old 07-12-2013, 07:57 AM   #18
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Looks like you had more fuel in the SM uoa so that killed the viscosity and Flashpoint. The sample was taken in winter so maybe you were running a bit more rich as well. Was the sample taken after bringing the car up to operating temp?

Stage I OTS tunes run rich and that's a very good reason why I would never run this oil, even in a moderately driven WRX. Also, BS doesn't actually test fuel. They extrapolate the reading from the flashpoint so the actual fuel will always be higher than the reading shows.

For my driving conditions, Mobil1 recommended 0W-40 and that was even before the AP.

subie400 - M1 HM 10W-30 meets ACEA A3 specs so it's another good choice. The M1 HM 5W-30 has a slightly lower HTHS so it doesn't meet the spec (and it has more ZDDP than this M1). I thought the OP chose 5W-30 for warranty purposes, but the warranty is a moot point with an AccessPort!

-Dennis

Last edited by bluesubie; 07-12-2013 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:01 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post
Looks like you had more fuel in the SM uoa so that killed the viscosity and Flashpoint. The sample was taken in winter so maybe you were running a bit more rich as well. Was the sample taken after bringing the car up to operating temp?

Stage I OTS tunes run rich and that's a very good reason why I would never run this oil, even in a moderately driven WRX. Also, BS doesn't actually test fuel. They extrapolate the reading from the flashpoint so the actual fuel will always be higher than the reading shows.

For my driving conditions, Mobil1 recommended 0W-40 and that was even before the AP.

subie400 - M1 HM 10W-30 meets ACEA A3 specs so it's another good choice. The M1 HM 5W-30 has a slightly lower HTHS so it doesn't meet the spec (and it has more ZDDP than this M1). I thought the OP chose 5W-30 for warranty purposes, but the warranty is a moot point with an AccessPort!

-Dennis
The first sample may have had slight fuel dilution because the car was brought to operating temp only by idling (from cold, ran for 10-15 min to get warm but not driven) -at least that was Blackstone's thought. Second sample was after actual driving for 60+ minutes.
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:04 PM   #20
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"Stage I OTS tunes run rich and that's a very good reason why I would never run this oil, even in a moderately driven WRX."

Dennis, can you explain this to me (why running rich effects the oil I should use)? Like I said, I'm no expert!

Also, I got/run the State 1 tune simply because the stock tune runs crappy and seems to be that most feel it is not detrimental to run and not necessarily for a performance upgrade.

Last edited by garzdos; 07-12-2013 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:52 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garzdos View Post
"Stage I OTS tunes run rich and that's a very good reason why I would never run this oil, even in a moderately driven WRX."

Dennis, can you explain this to me (why running rich effects the oil I should use)? Like I said, I'm no expert!

Also, I got/run the State 1 tune simply because the stock tune runs crappy and seems to be that most feel it is not detrimental to run and not necessarily for a performance upgrade.
An OTS tune runs on the rich side for safety (it's better than running too lean). Running rich = more fuel in the oil and this affects the oil's viscosity. The more fuel that the oil is diluted with the lower the viscosity because the fuel is contaminating and thinning out the oil.

A thicker oil won't help with the dilution, but you have a little more viscosity to play with if the oil shears from it. A good protune will not run as rich as an OTS tune and this is reflected in a uoa.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2282563

Some more info:

http://www.polarislabs.com/changes-i...tion-by-gc.php

http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbu...20Dilution.pdf

The lab usually won't flag dilution unless it seems excessive and/or you are having increased wear.

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/2-5-lite...-bearings.html

No more free advice!

-Dennis
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Old 07-12-2013, 02:10 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post
An OTS tune runs on the rich side for safety (it's better than running too lean). Running rich = more fuel in the oil and this affects the oil's viscosity. The more fuel that the oil is diluted with the lower the viscosity because the fuel is contaminating and thinning out the oil.

A thicker oil won't help with the dilution, but you have a little more viscosity to play with if the oil shears from it. A good protune will not run as rich as an OTS tune and this is reflected in a uoa.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2282563

Some more info:

http://www.polarislabs.com/changes-i...tion-by-gc.php

http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbu...20Dilution.pdf

The lab usually won't flag dilution unless it seems excessive and/or you are having increased wear.

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/2-5-lite...-bearings.html

No more free advice!

-Dennis
Then in your opinion (not free advice ) is my uoa not as bad considering my car is running rich? I am not asking if you think this oil is right for my application (I already know how you feel about that), but more wondering if it is better than you would have thought considering the tune/running rich.
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:24 PM   #23
bluesubie
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GF5 oils are showing some very good uoa's so this one isn't surprising. That said, this is only one random uoa with a 2,500 mile OCI in a WRX that is still breaking in. The challenge is finding a uoa trend on a GF5 oil in a modified WRX.

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Old 07-12-2013, 04:11 PM   #24
gpshumway
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Originally Posted by garzdos View Post
Then in your opinion (not free advice ) is my uoa not as bad considering my car is running rich? I am not asking if you think this oil is right for my application (I already know how you feel about that), but more wondering if it is better than you would have thought considering the tune/running rich.
I would say your two UOAs show the vast improvement Mobil has made in their "regular" 5w30 between the SM and SN formulations, and that the SN formula is working well in your car. From this one UOA, it appears to be working at least as well as Pennzoil Ultra is working for "KHP" in his 2011 WRX. (LINK) I say "at least as well" because he does mostly highway driving on a stock tune in warm temperatures, your usage is likely much tougher on the oil.

Most of us around here recommend taking at least a half step up in viscosity due to the prevalence of spun bearings and turbo bearing failures in turbo EJ engines. It's just smart, cheap insurance. That half step would lead you to a European xw-30 like GC or M1 ESP Formula, but those oils are difficult to find and expensive, thus the recommendation to take a full step up to RT6, TDT, or M1 0w40.

By all means, continue to run the GF-5 (and upcoming GF-6) M1 5w30 and keep posting the UOAs. The way you use your car, the oil likely stays cool and thick, so there's not much to worry about, just know that UOA is unlikely to catch an impending bearing or turbo failure before it's too late.
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Old 07-12-2013, 04:21 PM   #25
garzdos
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Originally Posted by gpshumway View Post
I would say your two UOAs show the vast improvement Mobil has made in their "regular" 5w30 between the SM and SN formulations, and that the SN formula is working well in your car. From this one UOA, it appears to be working at least as well as Pennzoil Ultra is working for "KHP" in his 2011 WRX. (LINK) I say "at least as well" because he does mostly highway driving on a stock tune in warm temperatures, your usage is likely much tougher on the oil.

Most of us around here recommend taking at least a half step up in viscosity due to the prevalence of spun bearings and turbo bearing failures in turbo EJ engines. It's just smart, cheap insurance. That half step would lead you to a European xw-30 like GC or M1 ESP Formula, but those oils are difficult to find and expensive, thus the recommendation to take a full step up to RT6, TDT, or M1 0w40.

By all means, continue to run the GF-5 (and upcoming GF-6) M1 5w30 and keep posting the UOAs. The way you use your car, the oil likely stays cool and thick, so there's not much to worry about, just know that UOA is unlikely to catch an impending bearing or turbo failure before it's too late.
I too am intrigued with what appears to be a much improved oil in the GF5. And with this last oil change I did refill with GF5 Mobil 1 5w/30 so we will have another UOA in awhile...hopefully I don't destroy my motor before then

Last edited by garzdos; 07-23-2013 at 01:25 PM.
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