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View Poll Results: If Subaru upgraded the current block wiht forged internals
Would you pay the extra cost for the STI with forged internals? 50 60.24%
Would you buy the STI over the WRX with forged internals? 28 33.73%
You would still get the WRX. 15 18.07%
Forged internals would not correct any current issues. 8 9.64%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 83. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-26-2013, 05:20 PM   #1
JonzFaSTi
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Default If the STI had forged internals

"If the STI had ALL forged internals"

More specifically if the pistons were forged.

Would you pay the extra cost if Subaru were to actually upgrade the pistons/internals on the current stock block?

Realistically how much would it cost Subaru to make these changes? $2k, 3K, 5k, more?

In order to widen the gap between the STI and WRX would more of you still purchase the WRX or would you upgrade to the stronger STI?

Last if Subaru happened to actually make these changes do you think it would eliminate most of the piston ring failures over the past years? Or do you think its tied more to the ECU and tuning aspect that is the underlying problem which they also need to correct?
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Last edited by JonzFaSTi; 07-27-2013 at 05:32 PM.
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Old 07-26-2013, 05:23 PM   #2
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can not happen

wont meet emissions

emissions is the whole issue, here

/ thread
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Old 07-26-2013, 05:25 PM   #3
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Ok how about just upgrading the pistons and rings?
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Old 07-26-2013, 05:52 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonzFaSTi View Post
Ok how about just upgrading the pistons and rings?
if it was easy and/or cheap....dont ya think it woulda been DONE already

this is a dead horse

beat to death many times, here
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Old 07-26-2013, 05:55 PM   #5
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If emissions issues didn't exist, yes.
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Old 07-26-2013, 06:00 PM   #6
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Most people won't modify their cars past a muffler, so you were a manufacturer, why go through the trouble for street racers who typically modify the emissions control systems rendering them technically illegal according to Federal laws (clean air act)?
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Old 07-26-2013, 06:03 PM   #7
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1. It does. 257 blocks have always had forged crank/rods. Pistons are hyper-cast, subaru thought they offered advantages over forged in some ways I'm sure since they switched from forged pistons in the 207 blocks back in '02.

2. What is the point of this thread again? Stock wrx and sti motors will put out amazing hp for 4cyl's as they come already.
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Old 07-26-2013, 06:07 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neko View Post
1. It does. 257 blocks have always had forged crank/rods.
Same with EJ255.
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Old 07-26-2013, 06:31 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smurftastic View Post
If emissions issues didn't exist, yes.
I'm not sure what emissions have to do with forged internals? There are plenty of cars that come that way from the factory nowadays...

I don't see any reason as to why Subaru COULDN'T do this. I'm not getting into the logic of the benefits of forged vs cast, but I'm sure that if they wanted to they could.
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Old 07-26-2013, 06:41 PM   #10
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I guess the point was to know if you would pay the extra cost for Subaru to have a more reliable engine without the problem of a failed piston ring.

I know this topic has been discussed many times but i am asking if Subaru were to do something to fix the problen would u as a consumer pay the extra cost to have it.

If they fixed the problem would more people buy and STI? If the STI engine was stronger, could hold more power and was more reliable (like the difference between the 6spd and 5spd ) would more people buy the STI over the WRX or even the Evo.

Last edited by JonzFaSTi; 07-27-2013 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 07-26-2013, 07:06 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonzFaSTi View Post
I guess the point was to know if you would pay the extra cost for Subaru to have a more reliable engine without the problem of a failed piston ring.

I know this topic has been discussed many times but i am asking if Subaru were to do something to fix the problen would u as a consumer pay the extra cost to have it.

If they fixed the problem would more people buy and STI? If the STI engine was stronger, could hold more power and was more reliable (like the difference betweem the 6spd and 5spd ) would more people buy the STI over the WRX.
why would a manufacturer over-build a proven reliable motor?

If you want a built motor, buy one. But people who modify their cars well beyond stock power levels are only a small market segment of people who would buy a wrx/sti.

Last edited by sc00by4life; 07-26-2013 at 07:36 PM.
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Old 07-26-2013, 07:09 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neko View Post
1. It does. 257 blocks have always had forged crank/rods. Pistons are hyper-cast, subaru thought they offered advantages over forged in some ways I'm sure since they switched from forged pistons in the 207 blocks back in '02.

2. What is the point of this thread again? Stock wrx and sti motors will put out amazing hp for 4cyl's as they come already.
Thank you for the voice of reason. The USDM STI has had forged internals for a long time now. This thread highlights some of the misconceptions of the EJ motor for sure.
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Old 07-26-2013, 07:16 PM   #13
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Yeah, how is the STi engine not reliable? Mine is happily not stock and has been for 128k so far. Not everyone breaks ringlands, that just happens to be the part that goes when the rest holds up to the abuse. Honestly, STi's are capable, on a stock block and some light mods, of puttin down more whp reliably than many other cars that cost <100k... I have no complaints after 6yrs with my current one.
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Old 07-26-2013, 08:25 PM   #14
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There are plenty of people out there with problems with the end result a failed ringlad. Weather on a stock block or a conservative stg 2 set up. At 2500 miles to 50k+ miles. There are tons of threads complaining about this issue.

I thought the the pole was pretty simple. Would you pay the extra money or a better piston in the STI and not have to worry about this being an issue.

I take it from the feedback NO

I'd figure from a cost perspective of how many engines actually have a problem it is cheaper for Subaru the way it is. But is Subaru missing out on more potential buyers or return buyers because of these issues? Would more people consider the STI over the WRX and even the Evo if there to do something like this? Meaning more profits and customer loyalty.

Yahoo had an article up the other day showing how Subaru was the 3rd worst for customer loyalty. Porche being at the top. I was surprised how far down Subaru was on the list considering how many Subarus I have owned and the multiple owners on this forum. It just got me to thinking even though Subaru is at its highest is sales volumes right know how long it will last if people wouldn't buy another Subaru after owning one already.
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Old 07-26-2013, 08:31 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonzFaSTi View Post
There are plenty of people out there with problems with the end result a failed ringlad. Weather on a stock block or a conservative stg 2 set up. At 2500 miles to 50k+ miles. There are tons of threads complaining about this issue.
I would never argue that some had problems, particularly around 08 with the EJ257 ringlands. But, put it in perspective. Do people come onto the forums to start threads saying "hey, just letting you guys know my engine is ok!"? No, they come here to find advice for an issue, complain, rant, etc. Forums aren't a good sampling of what's really going on out there for that reason.

Odds are, you could probably get a new STI and get a shop to drop in pistons for cheaper than getting upgraded pistons from the factory. Of course the warranty is toast but considering the conversation it's likely the owner was on a short road to violating it anyway, no?
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Old 07-26-2013, 09:04 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonzFaSTi View Post
There are plenty of people out there with problems with the end result a failed ringlad. Weather on a stock block or a conservative stg 2 set up. At 2500 miles to 50k+ miles. There are tons of threads complaining about this issue.

I thought the the pole was pretty simple. Would you pay the extra money or a better piston in the STI and not have to worry about this being an issue.

I take it from the feedback NO

I'd figure from a cost perspective of how many engines actually have a problem it is cheaper for Subaru the way it is. But is Subaru missing out on more potential buyers or return buyers because of these issues? Would more people consider the STI over the WRX and even the Evo if there to do something like this? Meaning more profits and customer loyalty.

Yahoo had an article up the other day showing how Subaru was the 3rd worst for customer loyalty. Porche being at the top. I was surprised how far down Subaru was on the list considering how many Subarus I have owned and the multiple owners on this forum. It just got me to thinking even though Subaru is at its highest is sales volumes right know how long it will last if people wouldn't buy another Subaru after owning one already.
Poorly done survey that leaves a lot of confounding variables uncontrolled. The answer isn't as simple as the graph makes it out to be.

That being said I would have gotten the STi if it came with forged pistons.
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Old 07-26-2013, 09:18 PM   #17
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Actually, you asked about forged "internals". I just pointed out that we already have 2/3 of that. (actually lots of cars these days have "forged" rods or cranks.) But, the question you just asked: would a forged piston make me feel choose and STi? Nah, honestly, i bought my sti for the stronger trans, and bigger brakes (which i later discovered i like the oem 4/2pot setup better anyway). Heck I generally prefer the lighter r160 driveline as well. Plenty strong for what I need. To me, WRX or STi, it's just different parts on the same car, all perfectly swappable. Who cares which badge came on your trunk, it's just an impreza.

As far as factory subaru forged blocks, Ive had a V5 STi. Solid motor, didn't burn a drop of oil. Loved the redline on it. But then again, the super low clearances on the factory forged piston blocks can create their own issues. Ask around. 207's aren't problem free either.
If it didn't matter and there was no cost issue, I might choose forged piston over hyper-cast, but it's def far from the biggest deciding factor in a purchase.

Hope that answers for my opinion, not trying to start a fight or anything with ya.
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Old 07-26-2013, 09:20 PM   #18
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I'm not sure what emissions have to do with forged internals? There are plenty of cars that come that way from the factory nowadays....
Tolerances.....

If the platform is already close to not passing emissions standards OEMs will do what they can to keep from redesigning. Hence our ****ty OEM tunes.....

Cast pistons have their place, they can last for a very long time in driver vehicles.

I thought the STi had forged rods and crank?
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Old 07-26-2013, 09:25 PM   #19
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I thought the STi had forged rods and crank?
It does.
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Old 07-26-2013, 09:26 PM   #20
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THIS, especially when nav is like a 2k option. I cant imagine what the you would get charged for forged internals as a factory option. lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogboot View Post

Odds are, you could probably get a new STI and get a shop to drop in pistons for cheaper than getting upgraded pistons from the factory. Of course the warranty is toast but considering the conversation it's likely the owner was on a short road to violating it anyway, no?
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Old 07-26-2013, 09:37 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALOKIN View Post
Tolerances.....

If the platform is already close to not passing emissions standards OEMs will do what they can to keep from redesigning. Hence our ****ty OEM tunes.....

Cast pistons have their place, they can last for a very long time in driver vehicles.

I thought the STi had forged rods and crank?
All EJ255/257 have forged crank/rods.
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Old 07-26-2013, 09:48 PM   #22
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All EJ engines have forged rods and crank.
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Old 07-26-2013, 10:23 PM   #23
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I'm not sure what emissions have to do with forged internals?
Forged pistons expand more as they heat up, so they have to be a sloppy fit when cold. That leads to more blow by and oil leakage on a cold start because the rings aren't being held straight to the bore, which raises emissions. Plus they rattle when cold, which could cause customer complaints.

The ring land issue is also due to emmisions. The top ring groove is high up on the piston so there isn't a large volume of quenched fuel/air mix lurking around the side of the piston. The ring runs hotter, the land is thinner, and since they run a tight end gap on the ring to keep blow by to a minimum, the chances of the ring expanding to the point the ends touch and it wedges are higher. Once it does that, the thin ring land shears off.

Big ring end gaps and forged pistons would increase the emissions, oil consumption, and NVH complaints. That's not something a manufacturer wants to do just to make an engine stronger for aftermarket power increases.
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Old 07-27-2013, 11:36 AM   #24
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What a bunch of crap^

People will believe anything they read on forums these days
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Old 07-27-2013, 11:52 AM   #25
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What a bunch of crap^

People will believe anything they read on forums these days
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