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Old 08-01-2013, 03:24 AM   #1
Justin V
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Default Outfront motor failure

1/31/14 Update starts at post 17

*** started as cam gear stuck on camshaft, bolt removed. Got my motor in this week, started breaking it in and noticed a check engine light shortly after for my AVCS timing. Also wasn't seeing oil pressure where I wanted it (17-52) between idle and 4000rpm, so I treaded lightly. Began addressing the CEL below and then the rest has unfolded. ***


Tired and frustrated, pulled an allnighter to get my motor back in and running, started it at 6AM drove it 15mi got check engine light P0021, slept.

Then tested solenoids and datalogged it. Datalog shows right avcs cam doing it thing as it should but the left cam is oblivious to the world around it.

Pulled all the jazz to get to the timing belt, got the dreaded 10mm hex bolt out. But now my cam gear won't come off the cam.

*tried tapping it a bit with a rubber mallet.

*read about getting longer bolts for the oil plate and bolting a board to it for extra leverage, just damaged the gear.

Read something about the dowel pin being able to fit in 2 of the holes on the cam which means it could be misaligned, but I doubt it since my valves would be bumping uglies. And it wouldn't have run like it did. (pretty decent)

Is there any method for this? I read the fsm too

My next option is to use a 3 bolt puller, but that will require even longer 5mm bolts and sturdy washers, and a longer bolt for the cam to push against but still leave room for the gear to back off.

I know the cam gear is trash but I have a spare I just want to make sure my cams are still good so I don't have to pull this motor again.

Thanks for anything you can offer
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Last edited by Justin V; 01-31-2014 at 09:32 PM.
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Old 08-01-2013, 12:17 PM   #2
lavid2002
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If the cam gear is already toasted why not use one of those jaw-type pullers? This would apply pressure to the cam and the sprocket only (No pressure on the heads) so the only thin you would have to worry about is pushing too hard on the face of the cam where the bolt threads in, and I doubt it will need that much force...
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Old 08-01-2013, 01:13 PM   #3
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I don't know if there is enough clearance between the gear and the rear timing cover to get the puller clasp behind the gear. If the bolt on puller fails I'll give that a go.
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Old 08-01-2013, 01:53 PM   #4
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Try a dead blow hammer, and if that does not work, use a light sledge. LIGHTLY tap the gear from the back, turn it, and tap again. Pull on it as you are tapping. You could try and get something in behind the gear but that risks scoring the camshaft.
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Old 08-01-2013, 04:17 PM   #5
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can't really get behind it at all with the timing cover and the engine. Its the driver's side intake if that makes any difference.

Already chipped my new rear timing cover with the hammer... dang

here's what I currently have going on
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Old 08-01-2013, 06:53 PM   #6
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Put like 2 or 3 washers on those bolts.

That should do the trick... WTF is making this stick so badly??
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Old 08-01-2013, 07:58 PM   #7
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I bet you put in the cam gear wrong and the dowel just press fitted in on the other hole that's why it doesn't want to come out.
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Old 08-01-2013, 08:09 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
I bet you put in the cam gear wrong and the dowel just press fitted in on the other hole that's why it doesn't want to come out.
That puller should do the trick just make sure the small bolts are threaded in as far as they can go so you don't just pull the threads out. And press against a cam gear bolt rather then the end of the cam so you don't mess up those threads.

If you need a new used cam gear pm me I have a pair I took off when I changed to wrx cams and gears in my sti swapped wrx
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:56 PM   #9
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Juan - I may have been off but I sure didn't think I was, I did drive the car and it didn't feel like it was off on the timing also don't think any valve interference happened.

Rob - I think I have another gear I can get back together, I'll just need a single cam if Juan is right.

I'm really hoping he is wrong but don't know what else could be holding it so tight, and I really hope it didn't break any metal off and makes me crack this thing apart again.

If nothing happens in the near future (I might add more washers to the thin bolts) then I am prepared to pull the motor again remove that side valvecover, cam blocks and rear timing cover to install a new cam and my other cam gear.

Unfortunately Juan's theory would also explain why the avcs on that side was not working.

Question, if the gear were off and blocking a dowel pin would it starve anything for oil aside from the avcs gear? ie the head and cams would still be getting proper lubrication.

Also if it were off a tooth like that would it not trip a check engine light since the cam position sensor would be reading a tooth off?
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Old 08-03-2013, 03:40 AM   #10
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So here's my follow up / horror story

Pulled motor tonight in 2.5 hrs. destroyed rear timing cover to pull cams.

start to disassemble avcs cam gear to salvage the bolts and outer ring. Cam and gear come apart

from what I can gather there are no problems with the dowel pins or any of the oil holes and chambers of the avcs gear are full of oil and


Metal shavings

so my cam is fine and must have just been held on by super vacuum force, the oil created the seal, but it was trapped in the chambers so it had no where to go until I removed the bolts and broke the seal.

As for the metal shavings, my brand new built motor with 40 miles on it is going to have to be rebuilt again. The shavings are aluminum so my best guess is that they came from machine work done to the heads and the galley ports were not thoroughly cleaned. I had some problems with these heads from the get go with 1 of the 16 valves being different from the other 15. Crazy it made it out of the shop, I know. Needless to say whatever the opposite of thrilled is, that's what I am right now.
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Old 08-03-2013, 04:45 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin V View Post
So here's my follow up / horror story

Pulled motor tonight in 2.5 hrs. destroyed rear timing cover to pull cams.

start to disassemble avcs cam gear to salvage the bolts and outer ring. Cam and gear come apart

from what I can gather there are no problems with the dowel pins or any of the oil holes and chambers of the avcs gear are full of oil and

Metal shavings

so my cam is fine and must have just been held on by super vacuum force, the oil created the seal, but it was trapped in the chambers so it had no where to go until I removed the bolts and broke the seal.

As for the metal shavings, my brand new built motor with 40 miles on it is going to have to be rebuilt again. The shavings are aluminum so my best guess is that they came from machine work done to the heads and the galley ports were not thoroughly cleaned. I had some problems with these heads from the get go with 1 of the 16 valves being different from the other 15. Crazy it made it out of the shop, I know. Needless to say whatever the opposite of thrilled is, that's what I am right now.
That sucks ass! I pull all the oil gallery plugs out when I port. Afterwards I have my machine shop ultrasonic clean and I check every hole and reseal before I re assemble.

I hope your cam journal s weren't gouged too bad. Don't clean the oil cooler, just replace not worth it.

Did you assemble the heads?

If not, I would be giving that shop a visit.

-Phil
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Old 08-03-2013, 03:34 PM   #12
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My oil cooler has been deleted and thankfully so for this reason.

I've only torn down the driver's side and the only journal that concerns me it the front intake one. No major scarring but I can feel a little roughness.

I had the heads sent off to a shop I will not name until I see how they handle this situation on Monday.
But this is what I first received


Notice that one exhaust valve.

The shop was very good about handling that. They said I can send the heads back and they'd fix it but that fastest thing to do would be send me a new valve and have it installed locally. I ended up being the one to install it locally, but that is the extent of the work I did on the head... Here's the catch. While waiting for the valve he said it had been sent off to be cut to the same angles as my seats and he was waiting for it to come back, which makes me think their headwork is not done in house.

I'd love to give them a visit and just drop it off and have them do everything I did and cover every wasted dime I've spent on cleaners and liquid gasket, etc that I will probably have to pay again to get this back in one piece.

I'm not pointing any fingers just yet, but I feel confident with the number of hours I spent over a parts washer that those shavings did not come from my part in this build.
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Old 08-03-2013, 04:44 PM   #13
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This is my worst nightmare, but part of rebuilding these engines. Hope it all works our for you mayng. I'm so crazy meticulous when cleaning an engine and rebuilding. My OCD feels right at home.

Let us know how you make out.

-Dave
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:54 AM   #14
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I would most definitely pull every single one of those plugs out. Go to a restaurant supply store or Amazon and get a stainless steel "full pan" is what it is called in restaurant lingo.

Get the deepest one you can find.

I have a 10" deep pan I pre clean all my heads in with hot water and simple green. Get a red scotchbrite pad.

Get some small wire brushes and clean all that caca out.

Then take them to a shop that will ultrasonic clean them for you. Your best bet to get all those little sobs out.
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:22 PM   #15
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I use a brass pistol bore brushes on a pistol cleaning rod attached to a cordless drill. I pull every plug and wire it out. A .45 for the block galleys and a .223 for the heads.

_Dave
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:57 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lavid2002 View Post
I use a brass pistol bore brushes on a pistol cleaning rod attached to a cordless drill. I pull every plug and wire it out. A .45 for the block galleys and a .223 for the heads.

_Dave
Same here
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Old 01-31-2014, 10:21 PM   #17
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Some updates.

First I will admit I pulled a douche move, and filed a charge back with the credit card company against Outfront for the cost of my motor rather than send it back to John and let him fix it. I lost the dispute because I did not give John a chance to warranty it and instead had a third party determine the cause of failure. I didn't really feel like I could trust Outfront's work and feel even more warranted now. Oh well I have nothing to gain or loose from them now so I am airing the dirty laundry to hopefully spare some of you from the same experience I had.

Heads: Here's how they showed up


One of these things is not like the others

Machining, cleaning???, assembly, packaging... no one saw it.



Block hardware: missing one of these, add another of those, just stack it anywhere.

liquid gasket ought to do fine instead of a crush washer


Yeah there are 7 rubberized washers for the main bolts that go inside the water jacket. Gasket kit only comes with 6 and only 6 bolts go inside the water jackets. One lucky bolt gets double stacked.



Bearings: after 40 miles. Some people are skeptics and say I (the guy who assembled the motor) must have gotten something inside to do that kind of damage. I don't have a little pixy pouch of metal shavings to sprinkle in my oil, but the machine work (all done by you know who) sure would create alot. The shop I took the block to determined the metal was in the engine before it was started. (How? The bearings are impregnated with flakes of the metal. If it was bearing material it would be coming apart not sticking within itself.)



Ring gap: I posted another thread just asking how much my ring gap would be off by without torque plates. I asked because they were on the tight side for a 400+ whp motor. Well tomorrow Mr. fedex is bringing me a torque plate. I will then check the rings again to see if they truly are 0.009" and 0.013"
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:39 PM   #18
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Any updates?
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:46 PM   #19
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All thats left to find is ring gap. I've been busy with school so I haven't bolted the case back together yet.

From what I've seen torque plates do I don't think the ring end gaps will open up all that much. If anything it might put them on the tight side of OEM specs and no where near what they should be for forged pistons.

School's closed for weather tomorrow so I might see what I can get done.
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:12 PM   #20
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Unbelievable. There are two sides to every story and I would love to hear their side.

Taking the photos at face value, I can't understand how the vendor could let that quality slip out of their shop. It would seem to represent a total lack of training on the technician that was involved. I'm guessing they subcontracted this and have hopefully learned a real lesson about managing subcontractors and quality control.
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Old 02-12-2014, 12:57 PM   #21
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Supertech made a change in exhaust valve designs somewhere in the last year or so. Not sure if you have ever seen how Supertech valves are shipped but they are basically sent individually from the supplier who could easily have had both old and new on the same shelf. Would not surprise me, I have had 16 intake valves sent to me once when ordering intake and inconnel exhaust valves.

Did you get a gasket kit from them or have one? The RTV is put on the covers with or without the washer so it just looks exaggerated when one of the washers is missing.

Those specs on your bearings are not bearing material. That is aluminum embedded in the bearing. The only place that could have really come from was the oil cooler, oil pump, or heads. Could also maybe be piston material but that would mean your pistons are severely scored. Any other material would have scored the bearings rather than embedd itself. This is why I always tell people to change there oil after startup and have that and the new oil checked by Blackstone within the first few miles. You would have seen big red flags with those reports.

Ring gaps much too tight. Not even a torque plate will make those grow to where they need to be. No if, ands, or buts about that one.
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Old 02-12-2014, 01:35 PM   #22
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Heads were sent to Outfront to be done. They supplied the valves so it was all dependent on what they had or were sent. They had a replacement cut the day of or day after they were made aware of it. Don't know if it came from stock or was expedited.

I got the gasket kit from them. It was opened and packed around the short block to save on shipping??? They didn't pull any parts from it as I inventoried it and still had all the orings for the halves and what not.

I know the specs are not bearing material and that they are machined shavings embedded in it. I thought I mentioned it above somewhere.

I recapped the whole oil system with Jeremy and John. Oil pump was new from outfront or somewhere (I've got a reciept), I deleted the oil cooler as its an 07 WRX with an EL header, heads were outfront's baby. People mentioned I should have blown out the oil passages with air or brushed them with a gun cleaning kit, but of all the other machine work I've had done I was never expected to do that. I know now for the future.

I've got pics of the pistons, they have micro scratches but nothing like the particles found.

Thanks for your input, I understand why you just get case halves from them and do the rest yourself.
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Old 02-12-2014, 10:27 PM   #23
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Dare I ask who built the motor?

I had one fail in 2 miles with bearing chunks and aluminum everywhere.
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Old 02-13-2014, 12:07 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin V View Post
. Some people are skeptics and say I (the guy who assembled the motor) must have gotten something inside to do that kind of damage.
Kinda confused here...what did you actually assemble on the motor? Cause it seems like outfront did the machining, bolted cases together, ring gap ect.

Im sure you already thought/said of it but any chance of metal being in the avcs cam gears from a prior blown motor?
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Old 02-14-2014, 09:46 AM   #25
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Quote:
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Kinda confused here...what did you actually assemble on the motor? Cause it seems like outfront did the machining, bolted cases together, ring gap ect.

Im sure you already thought/said of it but any chance of metal being in the avcs cam gears from a prior blown motor?
I bolted the heads to the block and assembled the rest of the motor. Therefore I had open oil passages which Outfront suggested I could have contaminated the oil system with metal shavings.

Rebuilt the cam gears. It was down from mid June til the beginning of August, I was out of school during that time and had plenty of time to sit over my parts washer and scrub everything.
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