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Old 08-08-2013, 01:34 PM   #1
GrimmSpeed
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Default GrimmSpeed 08+ WRX/LGT Top Mount Intercooler - Any Interest?

Well, immediately following the successful release of our 02-07/08+ STI TMIC (top mount intercooler), we heard an overwhelming demand for a GrimmSpeed 08+ WRX/LGT style TMIC. Instead of simply slapping something together (not our style) and making it available to you guys, we thought it would be best to slow things down just a bit and get some real input from you, the end users. We have an intimate understanding of what makes a great intercooler, but there are many decisions to be made and we’d really love to incorporate your input/knowledge as we move forward. Maybe we can all learn a thing or two! Take a minute to watch our product release video for the 02-07 TMIC. You can expect the same performance, quality and attention to detail with the project!


The first thing that we need to do is establish a set of primary design requirements. Here’s what we came up with. Of course, we have many other requirements as part of every product that we develop, but here are the heavy hitters on this particular project.
  1. The GrimmSpeed TMIC must fit 08+ WRX fitments without substantial/permanent modification.
  2. The GrimmSpeed TMIC must accomodate the use of upgraded ‘STI style’ turbos.
  3. The GrimmSpeed TMIC must be properly sized to support 550+whp.
  4. The GrimmSpeed TMIC must be innovative, providing features and capability that aren't already available.
  5. The GrimmSpeed TMIC must be an affordable solution.
Other requirements that are typical of any GrimmSpeed product involve material selection and sourcing (locally, when possible), quality, visual appeal, innovation, etc.

Here’s where you guys come in. We have a great deal of experience working with many different TMICs but we know that you do too. What are some design features that you’d like to see incorporated? IAT bungs? Water meth bungs? Splitter? What are some concerns you have with your current TMIC? Installation issues? Fitment issues? I’ve already got a long wish list, but I’d like to hear your thoughts before posting!

What we’ve done so far is create a 3D working envelope in CAD using out FARO Arm, as well as 3D scans of a handful of OEM and aftermarket options to use for size/placement comparison. We already have a couple basic designs pretty well sorted out, but there is still a lot of room for change and revision. As we firm things up, I’ll share my calculations and design methodology, but I think it’ll be best to start with the basics and expand from there. After crunching the numbers, I have some concerns regarding the efficiency and cooling/flow capacity of every single 08+ WRX TMIC that I’ve seen and I’d like to get to the bottom of those before moving forward. Perhaps some of you experts will have some insight here.

The intent of this thread is to gauge interest in the product, but more importantly, to better understand what your needs are. We know that there are already some great options out there, but we also think that they all fall quite short in one way or another. Now’s your chance to influence the design and development of what will become the new standard in 08+ WRX top mounts intercoolers! In the next post that I make, I’ll compile the suggestions that we’ve had so far as well as share some of the ‘hall of shame’ photos that I’ve collected and received over the last year or so. With that framework in place, we’ll nail this design and get parts in your hands! Being that we're in a technical subforum, let's keep this clean, civil, informational and educational. Sales or customer service questions/issues can be directed to sales@grimmspeed.com. We'll talk a bit about cost, but only as a design requirement/limitation, not in a sales/marketing context.

Below are a just a few teaser photos that I've snapped while exploring a few ideas/options with this project. I'll post many more along the way!

Matt Beenen
Engineering







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Last edited by GrimmSpeed; 01-28-2014 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 08-08-2013, 01:35 PM   #2
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Old 08-08-2013, 01:35 PM   #3
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Old 08-08-2013, 02:00 PM   #4
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Thanks for taking the time for getting input. The wifes 2013 wrx sure could use something nice!

BTW Im LOVING my TMIC!

Ian Hayes,
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Old 08-08-2013, 02:27 PM   #5
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I've been waiting for you guys to release a tmic for a while now! Will there be an initial group buy like there was for the last tmic you released? This would hopefully be a nice alternative to the expensive process west unit.
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Old 08-08-2013, 02:37 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rexworx View Post
Thanks for taking the time for getting input. The wifes 2013 wrx sure could use something nice!

BTW Im LOVING my TMIC!

Ian Hayes,
Good to hear!
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwb88 View Post
I've been waiting for you guys to release a tmic for a while now! Will there be an initial group buy like there was for the last tmic you released? This would hopefully be a nice alternative to the expensive process west unit.
There will definitely be an initial group buy!

As far as the 'other' options go, we're aware of them, but we do our best to design in a bit of a vacuum. By that, I mean that we'll use our technical knowledge/understanding, as well as historical data/reviews, to come up with what we think is the very best solution at an affordable price point. If it happens to be similar to someone else's solution, then you guys will have options! At first glance, though, I suspect that we'll end up with something a little bit different.

Thanks for the support, fellas!

Matt Beenen
Engineering
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Old 08-08-2013, 02:55 PM   #7
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BAM subscribed!!
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Old 08-08-2013, 03:03 PM   #8
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a few things i can think of off the top of my head

1) bpv flange that can accomodate all. currently if you have a big top mount like the process west or spearco you are stuck with a stock type bpv like a forge otherwise it'll hit the hood. find a way for us to get a tial or synapse on there...
2) the spearco mounts to the 5 speed trans case. not a huge deal, but what about the number of wrx's driving around with 6 speed swaps?
3) strut tower braces are tough/impossible to fit with a big top mount. can you figure out a way?

thats all i got for now...
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Old 08-08-2013, 03:03 PM   #9
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Not sure as my perrin TMIC is still holding up pretty good. I'd love to see how this looks on a car though! Might always change my mind
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Old 08-08-2013, 03:09 PM   #10
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My main factor in deciding what TMIC to go with was aftermarket strut tower brace clearance
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Old 08-08-2013, 03:10 PM   #11
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I don't have any suggestions at the moment but subscribed.
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Old 08-08-2013, 03:27 PM   #12
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Definitely needs to clear aftermarket strut tower braces.

Make sure the BPV flange doesn't interfere with the hood lining or hood in general.

Make sure it fits with turbos that are direct bolt on but have a slightly bigger compressor housing like my Kinugawa does. For example, I couldn't fit an AVO inlet on my Kinugawa because the inlet was actually sitting higher than my stock VF40's inlet. I'd be glad to test for this reason

That's what I can think of for now! Best of luck guys. Will buy, will buy.
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Old 08-08-2013, 03:30 PM   #13
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I have a few suggestions.. at our shop we see plenty of 08+ WRX or 05+ legacy GT's come through with AVO or Perrin TMIC. The product is well designed large in size and provides with the car is missing in terms of cooling.

The problem we have with the aftermarket intercoolers is that fact they are very difficult to get to fit properly and tend to have air flow leaks around where the turbo bolts on. If not that issue, it create a lot of stress on the up pipe and results in cracks.

Then finally, Process West released their TMIC setup and solved all the issues I've listed above. PW stopped production on their 05 Legacy GT setup and customers have to resort to the "eBay" knock offs. What Process West did so well was their use of silicone hoses and option to change to the "STI style turbo."

The only downfall we found was a hand full of PW Legacy GT intercoolers was the shroud. The shroud would rub on the IC or on the main hose.

This is where Grimmspeed can develop an intercooler where the core is doesn't interfere with the shroud and have a nice designed core instead of a block core with two outlets. Focus on the Legacy GT fitment and the rest should be very easy. The Legacy GT hood is flatter than usual causing the issues, WRX and Forester XT seem to be okay.

I believe Process West stopped production because this was happening on USDM cars. So If Grimmspeed can do the R&D on a USDM spec Legacy you will have the upper edge on refining the style and core, which will truly benefit the customers.
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Old 08-08-2013, 03:36 PM   #14
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+1 to being able to fit the larger aftermarket bpvs
+1 to strut tower brace clearance

I'd like to see something with a lightweight under the hood duct and splitter
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Old 08-08-2013, 03:47 PM   #15
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Not sure if this has been mentioned yet....but.

IF the 08+ intercooler will it the 05-09 Legacy GT's could you please design the air splitter for an 05-09 LGT fitment? No one makes one and its super frustrating. How is my intercooler supposed to work if the air isn't directed to it? :-(
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Old 08-08-2013, 03:57 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyG3nx View Post
BAM subscribed!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbs160 View Post
a few things i can think of off the top of my head

1) bpv flange that can accomodate all. currently if you have a big top mount like the process west or spearco you are stuck with a stock type bpv like a forge otherwise it'll hit the hood. find a way for us to get a tial or synapse on there...
2) the spearco mounts to the 5 speed trans case. not a huge deal, but what about the number of wrx's driving around with 6 speed swaps?
3) strut tower braces are tough/impossible to fit with a big top mount. can you figure out a way?

thats all i got for now...
Awesome input! I've noted all three points!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trustkevin13 View Post
Not sure as my perrin TMIC is still holding up pretty good. I'd love to see how this looks on a car though! Might always change my mind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballocks View Post
My main factor in deciding what TMIC to go with was aftermarket strut tower brace clearance
Noted. Strut tower bars present a challenge, as we can't possibly account for every possible fitment. With that said, we'll do our best to keep clearance low!
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyMcD View Post
I don't have any suggestions at the moment but subscribed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STi804 View Post
Definitely needs to clear aftermarket strut tower braces.

Make sure the BPV flange doesn't interfere with the hood lining or hood in general.

Make sure it fits with turbos that are direct bolt on but have a slightly bigger compressor housing like my Kinugawa does. For example, I couldn't fit an AVO inlet on my Kinugawa because the inlet was actually sitting higher than my stock VF40's inlet. I'd be glad to test for this reason

That's what I can think of for now! Best of luck guys. Will buy, will buy.
Thanks for the great feedback/input! We will definitely do our best on the strut tower bars, BPV fitments and aftermarket turbos. What strut tower bars are most important to you guys? We'll track a few down and keep them on hand for testing!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romero3160 View Post
I have a few suggestions.. at our shop we see plenty of 08+ WRX or 05+ legacy GT's come through with AVO or Perrin TMIC. The product is well designed large in size and provides with the car is missing in terms of cooling.

The problem we have with the aftermarket intercoolers is that fact they are very difficult to get to fit properly and tend to have air flow leaks around where the turbo bolts on. If not that issue, it create a lot of stress on the up pipe and results in cracks.

Then finally, Process West released their TMIC setup and solved all the issues I've listed above. PW stopped production on their 05 Legacy GT setup and customers have to resort to the "eBay" knock offs. What Process West did so well was their use of silicone hoses and option to change to the "STI style turbo."

The only downfall we found was a hand full of PW Legacy GT intercoolers was the shroud. The shroud would rub on the IC or on the main hose.

This is where Grimmspeed can develop an intercooler where the core is doesn't interfere with the shroud and have a nice designed core instead of a block core with two outlets. Focus on the Legacy GT fitment and the rest should be very easy. The Legacy GT hood is flatter than usual causing the issues, WRX and Forester XT seem to be okay.

I believe Process West stopped production because this was happening on USDM cars. So If Grimmspeed can do the R&D on a USDM spec Legacy you will have the upper edge on refining the style and core, which will truly benefit the customers.
Killer input, Romero. I'll definitely reference your points as we move forward. LGT fitment is something that's definitely important to us. Those guys get shafted too frequently! We are definitely interested in designing splitters for each fitment, like we did on the 02-07.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kizzer505 View Post
+1 to being able to fit the larger aftermarket bpvs
+1 to strut tower brace clearance

I'd like to see something with a lightweight under the hood duct and splitter
Check, check, check!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImprezaRose View Post
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet....but.

IF the 08+ intercooler will it the 05-09 Legacy GT's could you please design the air splitter for an 05-09 LGT fitment? No one makes one and its super frustrating. How is my intercooler supposed to work if the air isn't directed to it? :-(
If we design splitters, I'll make sure that an option for LGT owners is a high priority!

Keep the great feedback and ideas coming. You guys will all truly have an impact on the final design. THANK YOU!

Matt Beenen
Engineering
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:08 PM   #17
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i was in the market for one but just couldnt wait. im curious to see what you guys come up with, im sure its going to be top notch!
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:16 PM   #18
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As an Engineer who uses Solidworks, that video was like porn.

As a potential buyer. Yeeesssss!

A piece of input that may help. Currently the best TMIC on the market for a 08+WRX/LGT is the Process West style. But one part of their design I don't like is the way the one mount is. It mounts directly to the block up to the intercooler to stop movement. It could create false knock because of the vibration transfer. If you could look into a better way of securing the Intercooler without directly mounting to the block that would be a big plus for me.
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:27 PM   #19
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put me down for one. And testing with Graham at Boosted Performance Tuning.
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:28 PM   #20
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My 2012 Stage 2 WRX could be a remote test vehicle?

The throttle body to intercooler coupler is a major trouble spot on the '11+ WRX. A solid solution should yield high sales for you.

Another consideration is the fact that usually the larger intercooler puts part of the core directly over the turbo, thus blocking air flow to the turbo, and also allowing heat from the turbo to soak the intercooler core. Maybe a heat shield solution, or a creative size/shape/placement of the core?

A lot of the splitter solutions I've seen leave the outer parts of the core cut off from incoming air, allowing the core itself to remain susceptible to heat soak. Perhaps there's a better way to channel the air from the hood scoop to cool more of the intercooler surface?

Finally, I've read that a lot of the aftermarket TMIC offerings show larger horsepower numbers on a dyno than stock, but fail to cool as efficiently during day to day use. So, just a bigger core with better flow won't satisfy the needs of a customer who daily drives their WRX (such as myself) and isn't just looking for a dyno queen, but also an intercooler that is more efficient at cooling where heat soak is a concern (such as in traffic). An effective fin design is equally important as a larger high flow core design.

Again...really wish I could test for you.

- Wishful in St. Louis
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:35 PM   #21
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As an Engineer who uses Solidworks, that video was like porn.
Amen Brotha!
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:37 PM   #22
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If you guys need a another OEM TMIC to measure or a tester i'm in the roseville area and have no problem swinging it by

and i would def be interested in a group buy
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:42 PM   #23
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I hope this fits 05 outback XT's too.
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Old 08-08-2013, 05:30 PM   #24
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Make it so it will use a straight silicone coupler for the tb. That oem or aftermarket ones are very difficult to line up correctly. Not sure how you'd do it but you guys are 5he engineers not me.
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Old 08-08-2013, 05:36 PM   #25
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great news! you guys are awesome. my perrin has had a few issues over the last couple years. a hood splitter like the process west would really make yours stand out too.
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