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Old 08-08-2013, 07:54 PM   #26
gearhead364
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I'll state this up front, I do not have a WRX or Legacy, but based on the results shown for the STI intercooler, I would like to see additional testing of the hardware than what has been done in the past. The design and manufacturing of the STI intercooler looked top notch, but I was never convinced of the actual performance gains. (This is separate from the splitter, which I really liked.)

Based on the results and design you showed, the upgraded intercooler showed a reduction in heat exchanger performance for a trade in improved pressure loss. IMO this trade is only acceptable for high HP applications where the flow rate has been increased significantly, e.g., an upgraded turbo. But for other scenarios, like when a customer is at stage 2+, the unit is not really any better than what was originally supplied. If this is the case, then I think the application of this upgrade should be communicated to the customer better.

Ultimately, I think more testing should be performed on any future designs and the results more effectively communicated to the user. (Please no more videos of Solidworks CFD, please)
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Old 08-08-2013, 08:22 PM   #27
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Looks awesome! Nice job! I'd replace my Perrin top mount with this beauty
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Old 08-08-2013, 08:26 PM   #28
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One thing I would like to hit on is weight. Obviously making an intercooler that is strong enough to hold high boost levels is required, but from my experience installing a GS intercooler on a '12 STI, that thing is HEAVY! I don't have exact numbers, but I would guess 3-4X's heavier than the stock unit, and its at the top of the motor(raising the center of gravity).

Also there was some space I felt was wasted as the intercooler fins go 1-2" past the edge of the back end of the scoop ducting rendering that section ineffective. There also is a several inch air gap on the passenger side that allows air to rush past over the turbo rather than creating a higher pressure differential forcing more air through the intercooler. To fix the gap issue should be simple by either extending the length of the intercooler on that side and including a new or extension bracket for the passenger side mount (the mount point seemed to be the size limiting factor), or offering some kind of block off plate that could be attached to that mount(think a C shape plate with 2 90 degree bends) and close off the space.

I will be watching this develop closely as I have started to look into intercoolers as my boost levels come closer to going beyond OEM capabilities!
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Old 08-08-2013, 09:10 PM   #29
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i cant wait to see what you guys create! i will be checking back here to see updates.
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Old 08-08-2013, 09:12 PM   #30
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Quote:
and its at the top of the motor(raising the center of gravity).
you really worried about an extra couple of pounds on the top of the motor? Hope you car doesnt have a sunroof.
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Old 08-08-2013, 09:20 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eco-mod View Post
One thing I would like to hit on is weight. Obviously making an intercooler that is strong enough to hold high boost levels is required, but from my experience installing a GS intercooler on a '12 STI, that thing is HEAVY! I don't have exact numbers, but I would guess 3-4X's heavier than the stock unit, and its at the top of the motor(raising the center of gravity).

Also there was some space I felt was wasted as the intercooler fins go 1-2" past the edge of the back end of the scoop ducting rendering that section ineffective. There also is a several inch air gap on the passenger side that allows air to rush past over the turbo rather than creating a higher pressure differential forcing more air through the intercooler. To fix the gap issue should be simple by either extending the length of the intercooler on that side and including a new or extension bracket for the passenger side mount (the mount point seemed to be the size limiting factor), or offering some kind of block off plate that could be attached to that mount(think a C shape plate with 2 90 degree bends) and close off the space.

I will be watching this develop closely as I have started to look into intercoolers as my boost levels come closer to going beyond OEM capabilities!

+1 on this post for the heat block idea. A good balance of heat soak transfer and performance gain would be sweet.

Last edited by HyG3nx; 08-08-2013 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:04 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmochowski View Post
you really worried about an extra couple of pounds on the top of the motor? Hope you car doesnt have a sunroof.
Oh don't worry, it doesn't. If you picked up the two side by side you would be surprised.
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:18 AM   #33
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I think you guys should have a base model of your intercoolers and then for additional charges, give customized options available through your site only. Base model simply just needs to be the same as the sti, but made to work on the wrx, along with an optional splitter. The premium options could be: bungs and BPV flange options. Also, if the design allows, try to make this clear some basic strut tower braces (if this isn't already the case)
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:56 AM   #34
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subscribed... excellent company. already have so many of their works.
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Old 08-09-2013, 11:20 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRob74 View Post
i was in the market for one but just couldnt wait. im curious to see what you guys come up with, im sure its going to be top notch!
Thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delphi View Post
As an Engineer who uses Solidworks, that video was like porn.

As a potential buyer. Yeeesssss!

A piece of input that may help. Currently the best TMIC on the market for a 08+WRX/LGT is the Process West style. But one part of their design I don't like is the way the one mount is. It mounts directly to the block up to the intercooler to stop movement. It could create false knock because of the vibration transfer. If you could look into a better way of securing the Intercooler without directly mounting to the block that would be a big plus for me.
Noted. In an application like this, we would typically mimic what the Subaru engineers intended. Of course, in this case, the TMIC is/was hard-mounted to the turbo. We'll definitely isolate the assembly from the motor/trans if necessary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcazi View Post
put me down for one. And testing with Graham at Boosted Performance Tuning.
Rock on!
Quote:
Originally Posted by XTi24 View Post
My 2012 Stage 2 WRX could be a remote test vehicle?

The throttle body to intercooler coupler is a major trouble spot on the '11+ WRX. A solid solution should yield high sales for you.

Another consideration is the fact that usually the larger intercooler puts part of the core directly over the turbo, thus blocking air flow to the turbo, and also allowing heat from the turbo to soak the intercooler core. Maybe a heat shield solution, or a creative size/shape/placement of the core?

A lot of the splitter solutions I've seen leave the outer parts of the core cut off from incoming air, allowing the core itself to remain susceptible to heat soak. Perhaps there's a better way to channel the air from the hood scoop to cool more of the intercooler surface?

Finally, I've read that a lot of the aftermarket TMIC offerings show larger horsepower numbers on a dyno than stock, but fail to cool as efficiently during day to day use. So, just a bigger core with better flow won't satisfy the needs of a customer who daily drives their WRX (such as myself) and isn't just looking for a dyno queen, but also an intercooler that is more efficient at cooling where heat soak is a concern (such as in traffic). An effective fin design is equally important as a larger high flow core design.

Again...really wish I could test for you.

- Wishful in St. Louis
Great input! Sounds like introducing cool, ambient air and removing the hot air is a big concern for you guys. Rightfully so! We'll explore some unique solutions for sure. As far as the sizing/specing the core, that's something that we'll talk about. We've dot a good understanding of the effects of internal and external fin designs and densities on cooling, heat soak and flow. This is one of those situations where you can't have your cake and eat it too, unfortunately. Next week, we'll discuss core specifications and I'll definitely be interested in input like this.
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Originally Posted by sexyyrex View Post
Amen Brotha!

Quote:
Originally Posted by miles5241 View Post
If you guys need a another OEM TMIC to measure or a tester i'm in the roseville area and have no problem swinging it by

and i would def be interested in a group buy
Awesome! I will keep that in mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightmaresmk View Post
I hope this fits 05 outback XT's too.
I don't see why we wouldn't be able to accommodate. I'll make sure we have one in for testing!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemax189 View Post
Make it so it will use a straight silicone coupler for the tb. That oem or aftermarket ones are very difficult to line up correctly. Not sure how you'd do it but you guys are 5he engineers not me.
They're difficult to line up because of the jog that they make? I'll keep this input in mind.
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Originally Posted by 424wrx View Post
great news! you guys are awesome. my perrin has had a few issues over the last couple years. a hood splitter like the process west would really make yours stand out too.
Sounds good! Thanks for chiming in!
Quote:
Originally Posted by gearhead364 View Post
I'll state this up front, I do not have a WRX or Legacy, but based on the results shown for the STI intercooler, I would like to see additional testing of the hardware than what has been done in the past. The design and manufacturing of the STI intercooler looked top notch, but I was never convinced of the actual performance gains. (This is separate from the splitter, which I really liked.)

Based on the results and design you showed, the upgraded intercooler showed a reduction in heat exchanger performance for a trade in improved pressure loss. IMO this trade is only acceptable for high HP applications where the flow rate has been increased significantly, e.g., an upgraded turbo. But for other scenarios, like when a customer is at stage 2+, the unit is not really any better than what was originally supplied. If this is the case, then I think the application of this upgrade should be communicated to the customer better.

Ultimately, I think more testing should be performed on any future designs and the results more effectively communicated to the user. (Please no more videos of Solidworks CFD, please)
First of all, I completely agree with you on the test data. We had a perfect storm of tester issues that yielded great results and performance, without much real data. One thing that most do is simply post dyno charts, which you and I both know communicate next to nothing. There are a few 3rd party testers that have had these in their hands for a while and I expect that their results and data will be posted shortly. I'll post links when I have them. As far as real performance gains, we have customers making over 575whp on our 02-07 TMIC, so I can assure you that there are performance gains to be had.

It's worth noting that in the testing that I did publish, we used a 2.0L TD04 and compared both intercoolers before they were heat soaked. You're absolutely correct, though. There is a trade off with an aftermarket TMIC. A bar and plate core is inherently of higher thermal mass and stores more heat. At a time when it's storing heat, though, the vehicle isn't moving. Ambient airflow over the core is a requirement for an heat exchanger like this. In fact, if you're sitting in traffic, there's nothing any intercooler can do to resist heat soak. This is a perfect transition into what may be one of the biggest design decisions that we would love input from you guys on. What is an acceptable power range?

Bottom line, you can expect more testing. Also, CFD is a useful part of our early design process. The intent of the video is to share that process. Why omit it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 09rex101 View Post
Looks awesome! Nice job! I'd replace my Perrin top mount with this beauty
I hope that our finished product and test results give you the confidence that you need to make that decision!
Quote:
Originally Posted by eco-mod View Post
One thing I would like to hit on is weight. Obviously making an intercooler that is strong enough to hold high boost levels is required, but from my experience installing a GS intercooler on a '12 STI, that thing is HEAVY! I don't have exact numbers, but I would guess 3-4X's heavier than the stock unit, and its at the top of the motor(raising the center of gravity).

Also there was some space I felt was wasted as the intercooler fins go 1-2" past the edge of the back end of the scoop ducting rendering that section ineffective. There also is a several inch air gap on the passenger side that allows air to rush past over the turbo rather than creating a higher pressure differential forcing more air through the intercooler. To fix the gap issue should be simple by either extending the length of the intercooler on that side and including a new or extension bracket for the passenger side mount (the mount point seemed to be the size limiting factor), or offering some kind of block off plate that could be attached to that mount(think a C shape plate with 2 90 degree bends) and close off the space.

I will be watching this develop closely as I have started to look into intercoolers as my boost levels come closer to going beyond OEM capabilities!
Awesome input, thanks! As for the weight, it's actually not really a function of strength. There are a number of factors, but what it boils down to is that a dense bar and plate core is pretty darn heavy. The castings themselves are actually pretty light. We'll keep weight in mind, though! As for sizing, we'll make sure that it fits properly and is adequately ducted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmochowski View Post
i cant wait to see what you guys create! i will be checking back here to see updates.
Cool!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmochowski View Post
you really worried about an extra couple of pounds on the top of the motor? Hope you car doesnt have a sunroof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HyG3nx View Post
+1 on this post for the heat block idea. A good balance of heat soak transfer and performance gain would be sweet.
That's the goal! It's a very careful balance!
Quote:
Originally Posted by eco-mod View Post
Oh don't worry, it doesn't. If you picked up the two side by side you would be surprised.
Again, this is 100% true. A dense bar and plate core is an excellent heat exchanger but it comes at a cost!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogaloo Shrimp View Post
I think you guys should have a base model of your intercoolers and then for additional charges, give customized options available through your site only. Base model simply just needs to be the same as the sti, but made to work on the wrx, along with an optional splitter. The premium options could be: bungs and BPV flange options. Also, if the design allows, try to make this clear some basic strut tower braces (if this isn't already the case)
Good input! So a base model with options for tapping additional bungs, etc? All of the castings will be the same, to reduce cost. What strut brace would be most important for us to clear, do you think?
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Fatal Ode View Post
subscribed... excellent company. already have so many of their works.
Thanks for the kind words!

Three main questions for today:
1.) Shout-out the strut tower brace that you have. I'd like to get a few in house and test fitment so that I can do my best to fit them with our tmic!
2.) Are features for holding the LGT/OBXT engine cover important to you guys? I suppose I should ask the same question on the lgt forums.
3.) What horsepower range would you want to see in a TMIC? Keep in mind, we have people making big power on our 02-07, so just about anything is possible with a solid design!

Thanks again for all of the great input, ladies and gentleman and thanks for keeping it productive! We're genuinely want to create a TMIC that meets your needs! It's really easy to sit back and assume that we know best, but information like you're offering up is very, very valuable to us and I can't thank you enough!

Matt Beenen
Engineering

Last edited by GrimmSpeed; 08-09-2013 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:26 PM   #36
Shaunb62
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Already!!! Voiced my opinion shortly after the press release for the STI unit.

Echo the concerns of others here:

1. Should include a duct that mounts using the stock mounting points. I was contemplating a soft duct similar to the stocker that covers the entire opening including the passenger side heat venting area.

2. Driver's side brace must provide clearance for the Brake Reservoir

3. Profile should support aftermarket BPV

4. Clearance for strut tower braces, please
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:37 PM   #37
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It sounds like the more hp-capable this intercooler is the more prone it will be to heat soak. If this is the case then it's dependent on where most people are as far as power levels and what percentage of people use their car as a daily driver (most). I'd say most people are stage 2 but would like some room for future modifications. I would like to see this intercooler in the 400-450 whp range as a nice medium between performance and heat soak. Not that you're trying to imitate process west but I believe their intercooler is in this range and look at all the success it has had.
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Old 08-09-2013, 02:08 PM   #38
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09' OXT owner here with a vf-52 swap and EWG, etc.

Issue with the OXT is the engine sits different than the LGT and WRX but the lines, etc., for the fire wall are in the same place. I had to re-clock my MC tank to accommodate the Perrin TMIC. There is also a fitment issue with the bolt for the master cylinder hitting the bottom of the TMIC (esp. over rough terrain which is where my OXT finds itself often enough).

Other issues mentioned above about torque on the neck of the TMIC coming off the turbo, again, simply due to fitment issues.

My guess is unless you make a mounting bracket change/option just for the OXT, this proposed TMIC will still not fit well. OXTs are very much in the minority so this is understandable but I wanted to put my plug in.

This was done to try and mitigate the TMIC getting beat up.


http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2454286

Last edited by tazswing; 08-09-2013 at 02:46 PM.
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Old 08-09-2013, 02:48 PM   #39
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One thing I would like to mention. I know you guys make good products and I have no doubt it will be good but I feel that $1000 on a tmic expensive. The PW is pretty much that expensive (maybe cuz its made in Australia I believe), It comes with a splitter too. If you guys want to sell a lot I feel something better priced would be awesome. Anyone who does any research will quickly realize the perrin is not expensive but doesn't work as well as the PW, the spearco is too massive for anyone needs with a tmic and has fitment issues. I feel IMO a tmic that can perform as well as a PW unit with out that price tag would have the market cornered!
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Old 08-09-2013, 03:44 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaunb62 View Post
Already!!! Voiced my opinion shortly after the press release for the STI unit.

Echo the concerns of others here:

1. Should include a duct that mounts using the stock mounting points. I was contemplating a soft duct similar to the stocker that covers the entire opening including the passenger side heat venting area.

2. Driver's side brace must provide clearance for the Brake Reservoir

3. Profile should support aftermarket BPV

4. Clearance for strut tower braces, please
Good stuff! Thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwb88 View Post
It sounds like the more hp-capable this intercooler is the more prone it will be to heat soak. If this is the case then it's dependent on where most people are as far as power levels and what percentage of people use their car as a daily driver (most). I'd say most people are stage 2 but would like some room for future modifications. I would like to see this intercooler in the 400-450 whp range as a nice medium between performance and heat soak. Not that you're trying to imitate process west but I believe their intercooler is in this range and look at all the success it has had.
Great input, thanks! This is exactly the sort of stuff I'm looking for!
Quote:
Originally Posted by tazswing View Post
09' OXT owner here with a vf-52 swap and EWG, etc.
Perfect summary of the obxt situation. Thanks for the info.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmochowski View Post
One thing I would like to mention. I know you guys make good products and I have no doubt it will be good but I feel that $1000 on a tmic expensive. The PW is pretty much that expensive (maybe cuz its made in Australia I believe), It comes with a splitter too. If you guys want to sell a lot I feel something better priced would be awesome. Anyone who does any research will quickly realize the perrin is not expensive but doesn't work as well as the PW, the spearco is too massive for anyone needs with a tmic and has fitment issues. I feel IMO a tmic that can perform as well as a PW unit with out that price tag would have the market cornered!
Was $1000 mentioned somewhere or was that just a number that comes to mind? Here's a little bit of insight. We price our products based very closely on the cost of development and manufacturing and less closely on the price of a competitors product. If their product happens to be cheaper, well, so be it. If it happens to be more expensive, that's great for us. For example, in the case of the 02-07, I feel that we have the best option out there and it also happens to sell for under $598. Our design for 08+ will likely require a unique splitter and if that's the case, we'll probably package the two together. Same goes for silicone hoses and clamps. If they're required, they'll be included in the package. What I can promise you is this: they'll be priced fairly. Without knowing more about the design and features, it wouldn't be fair for me to throw even a ballpark MSRP out there. Seem fair?

Matt Beenen
Engineering
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Old 08-09-2013, 03:51 PM   #41
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That's good to hear! I have been holding out on buying a process West intercooler until you release yours so I can't wait
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Old 08-09-2013, 05:14 PM   #42
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My perrin is a real pain to take in and out and have ended up with stripping two different turbo's threads were they bolt to the tmic. If you can make a easier fit then I will happily trade in my perrin as long as price is rite (hint hint group buy). I also would like the option to run a sti style turbo by switching hoses or even a rotated hose for people wanting to stay tmic with there rotated turbos. I would make them separate accessories to keep the price down for the average joe. Also a bung for iat sensor for speed density would be a plus.
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Old 08-09-2013, 07:56 PM   #43
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Once it's not too expensive. I'm liking it! Also... once it's got the benefits of the Process West TMIC, I'm going to cancel my order for the PWest one and just get Grimmspeeds. That means a mount of BPV ( OEM and aftermarket ), enough room for the surrounding parts, and has a splitter / duct to be used with the hoodscoop
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Old 08-10-2013, 12:48 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by GrimmSpeed View Post

2.) Are features for holding the LGT/OBXT engine cover important to you guys? I suppose I should ask the same question on the lgt forums.
Yes please! I don't mind trimming the engine cover to fit a larger intercooler, but I'd like to keep it mounted for a more stockish look. Ideally the LGT version of the splitter would mate up nicely with the cut/trimmed cover.
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Old 08-10-2013, 06:42 PM   #45
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Any idea on eta?
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Old 08-10-2013, 11:02 PM   #46
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I put fitment/durability ahead of performance when it comes to a TMIC. Those looking to get the highest levels of performance usually reach for a FMIC.

With that said, if shrinking it down a bit allows for a better installation and the use of strut tower braces (cusco) then so be it.
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Old 08-11-2013, 12:04 AM   #47
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sub'd
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Old 08-11-2013, 02:38 AM   #48
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When is the speculated release? I understand that this is in the dev stage...
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Old 08-12-2013, 11:05 AM   #49
GrimmSpeed
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Member#: 136396
Join Date: Jan 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Vehicle:
2013 BRZ
SWP

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmochowski View Post
That's good to hear! I have been holding out on buying a process West intercooler until you release yours so I can't wait
Good to hear! Thanks for the help/support!
Quote:
Originally Posted by nate_fisher View Post
My perrin is a real pain to take in and out and have ended up with stripping two different turbo's threads were they bolt to the tmic. If you can make a easier fit then I will happily trade in my perrin as long as price is rite (hint hint group buy). I also would like the option to run a sti style turbo by switching hoses or even a rotated hose for people wanting to stay tmic with there rotated turbos. I would make them separate accessories to keep the price down for the average joe. Also a bung for iat sensor for speed density would be a plus.
Good info/insight. Everything you mentioned here falls squarely into my 'Must Do:' list, so you'll be a happy camper in a few months!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Navendra94 View Post
Once it's not too expensive. I'm liking it! Also... once it's got the benefits of the Process West TMIC, I'm going to cancel my order for the PWest one and just get Grimmspeeds. That means a mount of BPV ( OEM and aftermarket ), enough room for the surrounding parts, and has a splitter / duct to be used with the hoodscoop
Good stuff! We'll keep you guys 100% updated on our progress so that you'll know immediately if there's something happening that you think makes it anything but a great fit for you (let us know if that happens!).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ewt View Post
Yes please! I don't mind trimming the engine cover to fit a larger intercooler, but I'd like to keep it mounted for a more stockish look. Ideally the LGT version of the splitter would mate up nicely with the cut/trimmed cover.
Awesome, thanks for the reply!
Quote:
Originally Posted by nate_fisher View Post
Any idea on eta?
It really all depends on how smoothly this portion of the process goes. I know how long it will take me to build tooling/molds for the castings, cast the end tanks and machine them. Building the cores goes relatively quickly. The more input from you guys, the better! See more direct answer below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadGeneration View Post
I put fitment/durability ahead of performance when it comes to a TMIC. Those looking to get the highest levels of performance usually reach for a FMIC.

With that said, if shrinking it down a bit allows for a better installation and the use of strut tower braces (cusco) then so be it.
On any GrimmSpeed product, fitment and durability are evaluated completely separately from performance, because they're an absolute necessity. As for the cusco strut tower bar, we'll do our best. I'll have one headed my way by the end of the day for testing/measurements!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5speed View Post
sub'd

Quote:
Originally Posted by redpanda87 View Post
When is the speculated release? I understand that this is in the dev stage...
I can't commit to anything and I hate to suggest a date because I don't want to disappoint. We'll never rush to finish a project. That said, my current best guess would be a release in January. We'll probably give you guys a couple weeks to recover from the holiday season before posting the group buy! Seem fair? One thing to keep in mind with our development cycle that differs from most is that we aren't simply designing an intercooler and then ordering them. We're designing the intercooler, working with mold makers to develop tooling and a permanent mold casting process, casting the end tanks, machining them, testing them for material density, pressure tightness, etc. Our cores aren't off the shelf. That would save a couple bucks, but it would also mean that we're 'settling' and we don't do that. So, after cores are built and castings are inspected, we then weld each one up by hand. Each fully welded intercooler is pressure tested before it's cleaned, given a final inspection, sealed up and then packaged for shipping. There's a lot involved, but I promise you guys that we won't disappoint!

Matt Beenen
Engineering
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Old 08-12-2013, 11:54 AM   #50
isotopesope
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 265783
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: dusk at cubist castle
Vehicle:
2008 wrx
Niner ROS 9

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subscribed and stoked!

after seeing your 02-07 intercooler, i have since been waiting paitently for a 08+ to be developed. i've been quite interested in the PW one, but the price tag ultimately keeps me at bay. their splitter and the ability to adapt it to fit various turbos is most appealing about it, other than the excellent performance that is reported.

the AVO TMIC also has had my attention too. i like that it's not quite as thick as the perrin and their knockoffs, so the MC bolt clearance isn't as much of an issue, or so i have read. i also like that the AVO, perrin and the knockoffs are a similar footprint as the stock one, so an alternate splitter isn't neccessary, thus probably helps keep it more affordable.

so, adaptability to various turbo styles, excellent fit (no rubbing or install quirkiness and success with various BPV's), an excellent splitter fitment whether fitting to the OEM one or a new supplied one, and affordability are my four points.
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